Has Anyone Here Ever Actually Triggered the Elimination of Abuses with a Letter or Meeting with Clergy?

[Spiller]

Interesting how few are commenting on their actual experiences with contacting their pastors and/or bishops either verbally or by letter.

As I have said before, my current pastor is a good guy. He’s also smart and wise – he doesn’t want to created too much turbulence. Past pastors were either poor people persons and/or they were just plain lazy and wanted to do whatever made their lives easiest. My current bishop also seems like a very good man – altogether different from his predecessor who clearly loved to cultivate dissent.

So I do have hopes of something good coming out of this horrid experience…

 

[Spiller]

You might ask your pastor why. Obviously, you were the only one who saw it. I don’t think it is prudent or charitable to assume that it was deliberate negligence of set purpose, no matter how large the fragment was. Do you know for certain it was consecrated?

What made you reach that erroneous conclusion? I waited until the end of the great amen, stood-up, approached the altar, bent down, retrieved the host, stepped back and consumed it just as the Lord’s Prayer began. Several people saw me do that.

 

[Joysong]

Maybe the reason is that nobody has had occasion to complain???

I have been in several parishes in three states, and can honestly say that I have never observed anything that I could label as an abuse. God has blessed me with wonderful holy priests.
…

Edit:

Whoa, we are crossing each other in posting. I just noted your last post, Spiller after typing the above words. As I pointed out in a previous post, you are not very clear in your presentation. If I have misread something, maybe it is due to your vagueness and lack of clarity. I don’t want to spell it out again, since you did not answer the last one.

It isn’t important what I think, but you did invite us to respond, which I did. Just let it go if it is not acceptable or helpful.

 

[Spiller]

Maybe the reason is that nobody has had occasion to complain???

I have been in several parishes in three states, and can honestly say that I have never observed anything that I could label as an abuse. God has blessed me with wonderful holy priests.
…

Edit:

Whoa, we are crossing each other in posting. I just noted your last post, Spiller after typing the above words. As I pointed out in a previous post, you are not very clear in your presentation. If I have misread something, maybe it is due to your vagueness and lack of clarity. I don’t want to spell it out again, since you did not answer the last one.

It isn’t important what I think, but you did invite us to respond, which I did. Just let it go if it is not acceptable or helpful.

There is also the distinct possibility that the problem rests with you…

 

[KathleenElsie]

Interesting how few are commenting on their actual experiences with contacting their pastors and/or bishops either verbally or by letter.

As I have said before, my current pastor is a good guy. He’s also smart and wise – he doesn’t want to created too much turbulence. Past pastors were either poor people persons and/or they were just plain lazy and wanted to do whatever made their lives easiest. My current bishop also seems like a very good man – altogether different from his predecessor who clearly loved to cultivate dissent.

So I do have hopes of something good coming out of this horrid experience…

All things should be said in charity. I might ask about a situation on CAF because this allows me to get differing views on a subject I might be toooo emotional about.

Am I pleased with everything our priest does? Probably not. Would I personally like to have some things changed? Yes just like every other layman in the pew.

As long as the issues are minor and few they are best alone as long as it does not make a Mass invalid. There are times that I have been sure that someone is telling my parish priest about my posts. I will continue to post using my own name and pray for the person involved. For if and when I believe the matter is in need of discussing with the priest I will do so in love and charity.

But in all cases I would tell the priest if I found a HOST that was not eaten. If I saw who dropped it I would also tell the priest who it was so that the person could be taught how to receive the HOST without dropping it.

 

[Spiller]

All things should be said in charity. I might ask about a situation on CAF because this allows me to get differing views on a subject I might be toooo emotional about.

Am I pleased with everything our priest does? Probably not. Would I personally like to have some things changed? Yes just like every other layman in the pew.

As long as the issues are minor and few they are best alone as long as it does not make a Mass invalid. There are times that I have been sure that someone is telling my parish priest about my posts. I will continue to post using my own name and pray for the person involved. For if and when I believe the matter is in need of discussing with the priest I will do so in love and charity.

Good for you…

I stand by the letter I sent. In essence, I really don’t think I had a choice – I had to send it. While it was not politically smarmy it was tactful and direct.

Even though some of the abuses are fairly significant, I haven’t said a word about them – until the second incidence of finding a host on the floor…

 

[adrift]

The laity have always been the one to reign in the clergy case in point Catherine of Siena getting Pope Gregory XI to return to Rome.

My parish priest was pouring the Blood of Christ. I sent him a polite letter explaining my concerns and invited him to have a meal with my family. He accepted the invitation which is the only way I knew that he had read my letter. He stopped the practice the Sunday after he received my letter. He was a wonderful priest who is someone else’s pastor now.

In a parish I was visiting, there were so many abuses. I sent a letter to the priest but never received an answer. After waiting a couple of months, I wrote the Bishop. The next time I visited the parish what I mentioned was changed.

One of the things the Bishop said was that the diocese was so large that it was not possible for him to know what went on everywhere and he thanked me for bringing it to his attention.

I must also mention that before I sent any letters I prayed for the priest the Bishop and that I was doing the right thing.

 

[JReducation]

I hear you. To be honest the 10 points of concern I bought up have existed for a long time. They are all bad but I certainly have refrained from commenting ever since that letter years ago.

That changed with finding the two hosts. I think those 10 points (and certainly others) along with insufficient training caused an environment that allowed those hosts be be dropped and not picked up.

IT IS my responsibility and my place to speak-up in such instances.

FWIW, there are MANY lay professors in at least American seminaries today. And I’m not sure Hahn is at the “great” level quite yet…

There are many professors who teach at seminaries who are lay persons. Some teach full-time and others teach certain courses. I teach a course on the Spirituality of People with Special Needs and another on Franciscan Spirituality every other semester. But this kind of teaching is academic. It has nothing to do with telling a cleric or religious how to do his job.

Scott Hahn has actually earned the title of Catholic Theologian. That’s a very specific title. There are theologians, those of us who are professors of theology and Catholic Theologians, those who teach in the name of the Church and can teach outside of the classroom. Rabbi Klinicki, who is Jewish, has also been granted the title, Catholic Theologian of the Order of St. Gregory, which is the highest title that a non Catholic Theologian has ever received. He teaches Scripture and Carmelite Spirituality inside and outside of Pontifical universities.

For example, I have a degree, therefore I’m a theologian. But I am not a Catholic Theologian. I do not have license to teach in the name of the Church. This does not mean that that Church can’t employ me. In fact they do all the time for different things. But I’m not at the level of Hahn or Klinicki.

Fr. Hahns Kung is a theologian, but he has his license to teach as a Catholic Theologian revoked. He is still a priest in good standing with the Church. In fact, the Holy Father just put him in charge of creating a universal ethic for ecumenism in 2005. But he may not teach as a Catholic theologian. Therefore, he cannot critique or correct . He can lead this other project, because it does not require that he exercise any kind of authority.

I hope this makes some sense. The Church is complicated and we have a lot to understand about how she is organized.

JR

 

[JReducation]

The laity have always been the one to reign in the clergy case in point Catherine of Siena getting Pope Gregory XI to return to Rome.

My parish priest was pouring the Blood of Christ. I sent him a polite letter explaining my concerns and invited him to have a meal with my family. He accepted the invitation which is the only way I knew that he had read my letter. He stopped the practice the Sunday after he received my letter. He was a wonderful priest who is someone else’s pastor now.

In a parish I was visiting, there were so many abuses. I sent a letter to the priest but never received an answer. After waiting a couple of months, I wrote the Bishop. The next time I visited the parish what I mentioned was changed.

One of the things the Bishop said was that the diocese was so large that it was not possible for him to know what went on everywhere and he thanked me for bringing it to his attention.

I must also mention that before I sent any letters I prayed for the priest the Bishop and that I was doing the right thing.

But look at your style and compare it to what people on CAF want to do. It’s very different. You sent a polite letter of concern. You did not try to teach the priest or priests how to do things or to pull rank on them. You used the same style as Catherine of Siena. She used persuasive dialogue and was always open to the possibility that she would be told MYOB. She did not try to tell or direct the Pope on what he should do. She exposed her concerns and did so in such a persuasive manner and humble manner that the Pope was moved to want to hear more and eventually wanted to meet her in person.

People on CAF want to go out there and get in the priests’ faces and quote documents to them, as if these priests were ignorant. This is a very condescending approach and it violates the traditional protocol. You never order or correct a cleric. You present your concerns, listen to the response and if that doesn’t work, you follow the chain of command. This sounds like what you did and it worked.

You don’t sound like a person who got the priest trapped in your house so you could quote Church documents to his face. Did you?

I get the impression that you spoke about your concerns, not charged him with errors of all kinds. I hope I’m right.

JR

 

[JReducation]

So what your saying is that if he happens to pass you in the hall while you are walking, you are not even allowed to say “Good morning your Excellency?” I have tendency to greet my superiors myself, so I probably would fail him a lot

What kind of punishment does he impose upon you for talking to him?

I’m not going to criticize him, since he is the bishop, and can run his office how he sees fit…but I’m just curious.

No, silly

Of course you say greet the man. What I’m saying is that we’re not allowed in his office to speak to him about matters of work. We do everything through the secretary or the Vicar General.

The Bishop is a wonderful man and very warm. But he has been burnt by too many CAVE people. Complain About Virtually Everything. He’s just not inerested in hearing it.

His policy is simple. He follows canon law. If you have a complaint, put it in writing.

If you work here, talk the the right person, not me. That’s why I have a staff.

He really enjoys going out to the parishes and talking to the people. He loves that, especially talking to youth.

The only groups that he shies away from are religious orders of men. He is very careful not to step on their toes, because he needs them and he knows that they do not need him. So, whatever the major superior wants, the major superior gets, as long as they run the parishes for him. His mother didn’t raise no fool. LOL

I love him. He is kind, orthodox, but flexible. He is merciful toward the poor. He loves his diocese and has even made a point to learn all four languages spoken in our diocese just to communicate with people.

He’s one of the few bishops whom I know who personally directs the RCIT.

JR

 

[adrift]

You don’t sound like a person who got the priest trapped in your house so you could quote Church documents to his face. Did you?

I get the impression that you spoke about your concerns, not charged him with errors of all kinds. I hope I’m right.

JR

I think you give me more credit than I deserve
The priest and I never spoke of my letter. I did quote documents where it was not allowed. I did ask if there were other documents of which I was unaware. I did learn that my pastor was ignorant of some documents. I was amazed. I don’t know about the other parish as the priest never answered me. The Bishop however did and yes I do try to make my concern polite. One thing I forgot this last parish I complained to the priest that his homilies were too long(25-30 minutes) and had to much political comment. Normally I would not have mentioned such petty concerns. I did so because it was effecting a family member in a negative way as to undermine a faith that is week anyway. I am happy that he shortened his homily (15) minutes and he no longer makes political comments. But I don’t know if it was my letter because he never answered me. The old saying “You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.” is true.

 

[Jeanette_L]

There are many professors who teach at seminaries who are lay persons. Some teach full-time and others teach certain courses. I teach a course on the Spirituality of People with Special Needs and another on Franciscan Spirituality every other semester. But this kind of teaching is academic. It has nothing to do with telling a cleric or religious how to do his job.

Scott Hahn has actually earned the title of Catholic Theologian. That’s a very specific title. There are theologians, those of us who are professors of theology and Catholic Theologians, those who teach in the name of the Church and can teach outside of the classroom. Rabbi Klinicki, who is Jewish, has also been granted the title, Catholic Theologian of the Order of St. Gregory, which is the highest title that a non Catholic Theologian has ever received. He teaches Scripture and Carmelite Spirituality inside and outside of Pontifical universities.

For example, I have a degree, therefore I’m a theologian. But I am not a Catholic Theologian. I do not have license to teach in the name of the Church. This does not mean that that Church can’t employ me. In fact they do all the time for different things. But I’m not at the level of Hahn or Klinicki.

Fr. Hahns Kung is a theologian, but he has his license to teach as a Catholic Theologian revoked. He is still a priest in good standing with the Church. In fact, the Holy Father just put him in charge of creating a universal ethic for ecumenism in 2005. But he may not teach as a Catholic theologian. Therefore, he cannot critique or correct . He can lead this other project, because it does not require that he exercise any kind of authority.

I hope this makes some sense. The Church is complicated and we have a lot to understand about how she is organized.

JR

Whew! Isn’t that the truth! A lot to take in.

 

[benedictgal]

Thank you for pointing this out. It is absolutely true. We cause our priests so much grief by trying to do their job.

No we are not, especially where abuses to the Eucharist are concerned. Perhaps there are those whose particular charism leads them to believe that pacificism is the best approach. Sorry, but, that’s wrong. Redemptionis Sacramentum reminds us that:

11.] The Mystery of the Eucharist “is too great for anyone to permit himself to treat it according to his own whim, so that its sacredness and its universal ordering would be obscured”.27 On the contrary, anyone who acts thus by giving free rein to his own inclinations, even if he is a Priest, injures the substantial unity of the Roman Rite, which ought to be vigorously preserved,28 and becomes responsible for actions that are in no way consistent with the hunger and thirst for the living God that is experienced by the people today. Nor do such actions serve authentic pastoral care or proper liturgical renewal; instead, they deprive Christ’s faithful of their patrimony and their heritage. For arbitrary actions are not conducive to true renewal,29 but are detrimental to the right of Christ’s faithful to a liturgical celebration that is an expression of the Church’s life in accordance with her tradition and discipline. In the end, they introduce elements of distortion and disharmony into the very celebration of the Eucharist, which is oriented in its own lofty way and by its very nature to signifying and wondrously bringing about the communion of divine life and the unity of the People of God.30 The result is uncertainty in matters of doctrine, perplexity and scandal on the part of the People of God, and, almost as a necessary consequence, vigorous opposition, all of which greatly confuse and sadden many of Christ’s faithful in this age of ours when Christian life is often particularly difficult on account of the inroads of “secularization” as well.31

[12.] On the contrary, it is the right of all of Christ’s faithful that the Liturgy, and in particular the celebration of Holy Mass, should truly be as the Church wishes, according to her stipulations as prescribed in the liturgical books and in the other laws and norms. Likewise, the Catholic people have the right that the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass should be celebrated for them in an integral manner, according to the entire doctrine of the Church’s Magisterium. Finally, it is the Catholic community’s right that the celebration of the Most Holy Eucharist should be carried out for it in such a manner that it truly stands out as a sacrament of unity, to the exclusion of all blemishes and actions that might engender divisions and factions in the Church.32

It is certainly our right. I find it rather interesting that people will fight for the right to smoke or for the right to bear arms or any other right that we believe to be endangered, but, when it comes to the integrity of the Mass, many of us shrink away.

In fact, Redemptionis Sacramentum has a clause that encourages the laity to report serious abuses:

1. Complaints Regarding Abuses in Liturgical Matters
   [183.] In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be protected from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. This is a most serious duty incumbent upon each and every one, and all are bound to carry it out without any favoritism.

[184.] Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff.290 It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop. This is naturally to be done in truth and charity.

The OP did that. Unfortuantely, neither the bishop nor the priest acted in the correct manner. The next level is to take recourse to the Apostolic See, specifically to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments.

My father had to resort to this action. He sent a letter to his former pastor about some serious abuses that were going on in the parish and the lack of sacramental care for the elderly. The priest’s reaction was rather ballistic and billigerent. The next step my father took was to write to the Bishop (to the extent that he sent the letter via certified mail, returned receipt requested). After a month, he received no response. He then sent a letter to Francis Cardinal Arinze, the prefect for the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. On the day the diocese celebrated the Chrism Mass (this year), my father received an acknowledgement from the Cardinal’s personal secretary that he was investigating the matter.

Two weeks ago, his former pastor started to apologize to the parish about the things that have occurred. Even though he has yet to apologize to my father, from what he understands, the elderly were able to go to confession (although the pastor didn’t make a personal visit–other priests went to the senior citizens home).

 

[Spiller]

I hope this makes some sense. The Church is complicated and we have a lot to understand about how she is organized.

JR

Yet when it comes to two chunks of hosts laying on the sanctuary floor all night that vaunted complexity is of ZERO concern.

The letter was absolutely the right thing to do in retrospect. To remain silent would have been for me to be remiss as a Catholic with the gifts God has given me.

 

[Spiller]

But look at your style and compare it to what people on CAF want to do. It’s very different. You sent a polite letter of concern. You did not try to teach the priest or priests how to do things or to pull rank on them. You used the same style as Catherine of Siena. She used persuasive dialogue and was always open to the possibility that she would be told MYOB. She did not try to tell or direct the Pope on what he should do. She exposed her concerns and did so in such a persuasive manner and humble manner that the Pope was moved to want to hear more and eventually wanted to meet her in person.

People on CAF want to go out there and get in the priests’ faces and quote documents to them, as if these priests were ignorant. This is a very condescending approach and it violates the traditional protocol. You never order or** correct a cleric. (???)** You present your concerns, listen to the response and if that doesn’t work, you follow the chain of command. This sounds like what you did and it worked.

You don’t sound like a person who got the priest trapped in your house so you could quote Church documents to his face. Did you?

I get the impression that you spoke about your concerns, not charged him with errors of all kinds. I hope I’m right.

JR

1.) My letter was quite polite.
2.) I have no “rank” in the Church to pull over anyone.
3.) I was not condescending in the least.

You have to stop reading things in what people present in this thread…

 

[JReducation]

Yet when it comes to two chunks of hosts laying on the sanctuary floor all night that vaunted complexity is of ZERO concern.

The letter was absolutely the right thing to do in retrospect. To remain silent would have been for me to be remiss as a Catholic with the gifts God has given me.

I have no idea how they ended up on the floor, so I can’t say that your letter was warranted or not. You were there. I was not.

I once saw a host on the floor and pointed it out to the deacon after mass. He quickly disposed of it. That was the end of that. He assumed it was consecrated, just in case and then disposed of it as the law directs.

I didn’t have to write a letter, because there was no one to complain about. I have no idea how it got there and neither did the deacon. The important thing was that the matter was resolved quickly and simply.

JR

 

[Spiller]

You know when you add them up a ton of small liturgical deformations and delicts can really take a toll on a parish and how the Mass is ultimately celebrated. Almost a synergistic effect where the end effect is far worse than the sum of its parts.

 

[JReducation]

1.) My letter was quite polite.
2.) I have no “rank” in the Church to pull over anyone.
3.) I was not condescending in the least.

This is what I was saying about your actions. I was not speaking against you. I was applauding you.

You have to stop reading things in what people present in this thread…

When people on this thread want to be more Catholic than the Pope, there is not much left to the imagination. There is nothing to read into.

Actually, I was saying that you don’t sound like the kind that is in this group.

JR

 

[JReducation]

You know when you add them up a ton of small liturgical deformations and delicts can really take a toll on a parish and how the Mass is ultimately celebrated. Almost a synergistic effect where the end effect is far worse than the sum of its parts.

I believe this to be true. Fortunately, this is not an everyday occurrence. I have been a Catholic for a very long time and I have had the very good fortune of being around the most devout and respectful priests and religious.

I have never seen this kind of “abuse” that people on CAF seem to see everywhere, as if it were our daily bread.

I’m glad I haven’t. Maybe it also has something to do with my community. Our friars are very good men, as are our seculars and our sisters. They each have their quirks, but if quirks were a material sin, many of us would be smelling the sulphur by now.

JR

 

[Spiller]

I have no idea how they ended up on the floor, so I can’t say that your letter was warranted or not. You were there. I was not.

I once saw a host on the floor and pointed it out to the deacon after mass. He quickly disposed of it. That was the end of that. He assumed it was consecrated, just in case and then disposed of it as the law directs.

**I didn’t have to write a letter, because there was no one to complain about. **I have no idea how it got there and neither did the deacon. The important thing was that the matter was resolved quickly and simply.

JR

I’m not sure why you didn’t just immediately go consume the host yourself but that aside, there is apparently a huge difference between you and I.

I wanted the immediate problem fixed and I took care of it – I consumed both chunks of hosts. But just as important and this is where you and I differ, I want:

#1.) To find out what caused the chunks of hosts to be on the floor so as to take corrective action so it doesn’t happen again.

#2.) Understand why it wasn’t immediately picked-up. Related to the first one, but the reason and ensuing corrective action could be miles apart.