Has Ecumenism changed the meaning of EENS?

[johndoe100]

I have a question: Does this mean that the Sacraments are out the window? Because, I always thought that I had to be in a state of Grace before having Communion, which of course required a Confession, Absolution, and Penance. What happens when these people who we love Sin?

Thank you very much! That makes very good sense to me. Here is something I just thought of regarding how we are supposed to treat people of differing faiths:

I have seen in the news many beautiful examples of our Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI, reaching out to many Muslim and Jewish communities and that looks like a fine example to follow. Is it possible to reconcile my wanting all my friends of different faiths to come into the Catholic Church, while respecting their choices? Should I emphasize only our similarities or should I speak to them of “No Salvation outside the Church?” Is the Church showing us a new approach while still upholding the truth?

What I mean by that question is this: Is it possible that by loving people as Christ loves them, that their very salvation** will come** through the love shown them*** through the Church,***rather than our simply declaring them outsiders?

I have a question: Does that mean that the Sacraments are out the window? I always thought that I had to be in a state of Grace before having Communion, which of course required a Confession, Absolution, and Penance.

This seems to me what our Holy Father the Pope is doing, embracing all people with the great love of the Church, thereby truly hoping for their salvation through the Church’s most loving Heavenly Father.

This then would not be a new interpretation or a negation of “No Salvation outside of the Church,” but a real way, through love, of embracing all people with the Love our Church was founded upon, thus bringing them into the Ark with our love, hope and prayers. That way, in love, they would not be outside of the Church if we all embrace them in the love of Christ.

It’s as if the Ark of the Church is expanding itself with a revelation of love so profound that those outside of Her are compelled to draw nearer than ever before. Is that a possibility?

I appreciate everyone’s patience with my questions.** I’ve read every one of the replies** and am sorry I still haven’t learned how to multi quote, so thank you so much, everyone, for helping me.

Kathryn Ann:heaven:

 

[johndoe100]

In the above post my reply got mixed into the Quote. Here is my question again:

I have a question: Does this mean that the Sacraments are out the window? Because, I always thought that I had to be in a state of Grace before having Communion, which of course required a Confession, Absolution, and Penance. What happens when these people who we love Sin?

 

[wasserfall]

In the above post my reply got mixed into the Quote. Here is my question again:

I have a question: Does this mean that the Sacraments are out the window? Because, I always thought that I had to be in a state of Grace before having Communion, which of course required a Confession, Absolution, and Penance. What happens when these people who we love Sin?

For you John Doe 100:

“The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire ‘which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her… No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
-Pope Eugene IV, ex cathedra, Council of Florence, Cantate Domino (1441 AD)

 

[MariaG]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

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Notice the last line.

 

[mattkubes]

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

---

Notice the last line.

Noted. But it would be extremely irresponsible of us to rely on this theological possibility. It suggests that salvation is possible, not guaranteed, for someone who has had zero exposure to Christ’s truth and who nonetheless follows the Natural Law perfectly and complies with the graces he receives. Graces that this hypothetical person doesn’t know exist. Is it possible? With God, all things are possible. But it seems to be a remote chance from any practical point of view.

Hence the Church’s mission to baptize all nations. Not just to baptize some and cross our fingers for the rest!

 

[wasserfall]

Noted. But it would be extremely irresponsible of us to rely on this theological possibility. It suggests that salvation is possible, not guaranteed, for someone who has had zero exposure to Christ’s truth and who nonetheless follows the Natural Law perfectly and complies with the graces he receives. Graces that this hypothetical person doesn’t know exist. Is it possible? With God, all things are possible. But it seems to be a remote chance from any practical point of view.

Hence the Church’s mission to baptize all nations. Not just to baptize some and cross our fingers for the rest!

Furthermore, Vatican I stated dogmatically:

If anyone says that it is possible that at some time, given the advancement of knowledge, a sense may be assigned to the dogmas propounded by the Church which is different from that which the Church has understood and understands: let him be anathema.

The dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus must be understood only as the Church has always understood it. That is: absolutely no one who dies outside the Church can be saved.

 

[adrift]

If they are not baptized into the Catholic Church, then they are outside the Catholic Church, and cannot be saved.

There is only one baptism. Those baptized as Lutherns and other religious denominations have a true baptism. That is why when they enter into full communion with the Catholic Church they are not baptized because they have already been baptized. There is only one baptism and it can only be administered once. We may not know how but we do know that all salvation comes through the Church. How it comes though the Church is judged by God alone.

 

[adrift]

From the Catechism

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

 

[wasserfall]

There is only one baptism. Those baptized as Lutherns and other religious denominations have a true baptism. That is why when they enter into full communion with the Catholic Church they are not baptized because they have already been baptized. There is only one baptism and it can only be administered once. We may not know how but we do know that all salvation comes through the Church. How it comes though the Church is judged by God alone.

“The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire ‘which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her… No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
-Pope Eugene IV, ex cathedra, Council of Florence, Cantate Domino (1441 AD)

Lutherans are not “in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church”

 

[adrift]

“The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire ‘which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her… No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
-Pope Eugene IV, ex cathedra, Council of Florence, Cantate Domino (1441 AD)

Lutherans are not “in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church”

See the Catechism.

 

[wasserfall]

From the Catechism

If the Cathechism proposes an understanding of the dogma that is contrary to that which the Church has always taught (and I am not saying it does, but if it does), then the Catechism is simply wrong. As Vatican I dogmatically taught:

If anyone says that it is possible that at some time, given the advancement of knowledge, a sense may be assigned to the dogmas propounded by the Church which is different from that which the Church has understood and understands: let him be anathema.

 

[wasserfall]

See the Catechism.

If your understanding of the Catechism leads you to believe that those outside the Church can be saved, contrary to the perennial teaching of the councils, popes, saints, and doctors of the Church over the last 2000 years, then either you are misunderstanding the Catechism or the Catechism is simply wrong.

 

[MariaG]

Noted. But it would be extremely irresponsible of us to rely on this theological possibility. It suggests that salvation is possible, not guaranteed, for someone who has had zero exposure to Christ’s truth and who nonetheless follows the Natural Law perfectly and complies with the graces he receives. Graces that this hypothetical person doesn’t know exist. Is it possible? With God, all things are possible. But it seems to be a remote chance from any practical point of view.

Hence the Church’s mission to baptize all nations. Not just to baptize some and cross our fingers for the rest!

Absolutely agree. But clearly one does not need to be a card carrying Catholic for the possibility of Salvation.

 

[adrift]

If your understanding of the Catechism leads you to believe that those outside the Church can be saved, contrary to the perennial teaching of the councils, popes, saints, and doctors of the Church over the last 2000 years, then either you are misunderstanding the Catechism or the Catechism is simply wrong.

If you say that your understanding, supercedes what the Church teaches than you are making yourself pope.

 

[mattkubes]

If you say that your understanding, supercedes what the Church teaches than you are making yourself pope.

You seem to be conveniently ignoring what the Church teaches in all the other documents that have been quoted. The Catechism is not infallible. For example, the section on capital punishment contains pure opinion and we are free to disagree with it.

 

[MariaG]

If your understanding of the Catechism leads you to believe that those outside the Church can be saved, contrary to the perennial teaching of the councils, popes, saints, and doctors of the Church over the last 2000 years, then either you are misunderstanding the Catechism or the Catechism is simply wrong.

Yet clearly the catechism states that there is a possibility for salvation for those who are not formal Cathilics. Therefore, in light of church teaching, the possibility of who is IN the church cannot be limited to only formal members.

However, as also stated, we should not rely on possibilities, and our commission is in no way lessened by acknowledging that all things are possible for God.

 

[wasserfall]

Yet clearly the catechism states that there is a possibility for salvation for those who are not formal Cathilics. Therefore, in light of church teaching, the possibility of who is IN the church cannot be limited to only formal members.

Church teaching is not defined by the current Catechism.

If the current Catechism contradicts the constant teaching of the Church over the past 2000 years, then the Catechism is simply wrong.

The constant teaching of the Church is crystal clear, dogmatic, and infallible: No one whatsoever, who is outside the Catholic Church at the time of death, can be saved.

Just as no one whatsoever, who was outside the ark of Noah at the time of the deluge, was saved.

 

[mattkubes]

Church teaching is not defined by the current Catechism.

If the current Catechism contradicts the constant teaching of the Church over the past 2000 years, then the Catechism is simply wrong.

The constant teaching of the Church is crystal clear, dogmatic, and infallible: No one whatsoever, who is outside the Catholic Church at the time of death, can be saved.

Just as no one whatsoever, who was outside the ark of Noah at the time of the deluge, was saved.

I think St Thomas Aquinas’ opinion on this matter is legitimate. He said that those who are truly inculpably ignorant of the truth will not die that way - their ignorance is not salvific, so God will either send a missionary or angel to teach them the Faith and baptize them before they die.

That would be my position on “invincible ignorance” and EENS. None of us deserves salvation, but God will make the means available to those whose names, as the Apocalypse tells us, were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.

 

[wasserfall]

I think St Thomas Aquinas’ opinion on this matter is legitimate. He said that those who are truly inculpably ignorant of the truth will not die that way - their ignorance is not salvific, so God will either send a missionary or angel to teach them the Faith and baptize them before they die.

I don’t disagree, but those person would then be members of the Church at death.

 

[mattkubes]

I don’t disagree, but those person would then be members of the Church at death.

Yes, that has always been the understanding.