Has Ecumenism changed the meaning of EENS?

[adrift]

You seem to be conveniently ignoring what the Church teaches in all the other documents that have been quoted. The Catechism is not infallible. For example, the section on capital punishment contains pure opinion and we are free to disagree with it.

I agree with you on this but you can’t just ignore what it says either. The documents that have been quoted also do not fall under infalliblity.

 

[wasserfall]

I agree with you on this but you can’t just ignore what it says either. The documents that have been quoted also do not fall under infalliblity.

Yes they do. That is the whole point.

 

[adrift]

Church teaching is not defined by the current Catechism.

If the current Catechism contradicts the constant teaching of the Church over the past 2000 years, then the Catechism is simply wrong.

The constant teaching of the Church is crystal clear, dogmatic, and infallible: No one whatsoever, who is outside the Catholic Church at the time of death, can be saved.

Just as no one whatsoever, who was outside the ark of Noah at the time of the deluge, was saved.

It is your interpretation of the teaching that is at odds not the Church’s teaching. If you are saying that the Church is in error which it would be if the Catechism is wrong than the devil has prevailed.

 

[MariaG]

Church teaching is not defined by the current Catechism.

If the current Catechism contradicts the constant teaching of the Church over the past 2000 years, then the Catechism is simply wrong.

The constant teaching of the Church is crystal clear, dogmatic, and infallible: No one whatsoever, who is outside the Catholic Church at the time of death, can be saved.

Just as no one whatsoever, who was outside the ark of Noah at the time of the deluge, was saved.

The current statement in the catechism in no way contradicts the constant teaching of the church. It simply allows for the possibility that With God all things are possible and God have made someone a member of the Church outside the formal means of membership.

Now contrary to some who think that a bunch of people may be members of the church while not being members of the Catholic church, I see the statement as simply acknowledging Gods awesomeness and ability to do anything, including making someone a member if His church who is not formally catholic. But since most can acknowledge that we shouldn’t count on possibilities, the Church must continue Her commission.

 

[adrift]

Yes they do. That is the whole point.

Your opinion does not make it so.

 

[adrift]

Outside The Church There Is No Salvation

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The doctrine that “Outside the Church there is no salvation” is one that is constantly misinterpreted by those who won’t submit to the Magisterium of the Church. Faith does not depend upon our ability to reason to the truth but on our humility before the Truth presented to us by those to whom Christ entrusted that task. This is why the First Vatican Council taught that it is** the task of the Magisterium ALONE to determine and expound the meaning of the Tradition - including “outside the Church no salvation.”**Concerning this doctrine the Pope of Vatican I, Pius IX, spoke on two different occasions. In an allocution (address to an audience) on December 9th, 1854 he said:

We must hold as of the faith, that out of the Apostolic Roman Church there is no salvation; that she is the only ark of safety, and whosoever is not in her perishes in the deluge; we must also, on the other hand, recognize with certainty that those who are invincible in ignorance of the true religion are not guilty for this in the eyes of the Lord. And who would presume to mark out the limits of this ignorance according to the character and diversity of peoples, countries, minds and the rest?

Again, in his encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore of 10 August, 1863 addressed to the Italian bishops, he said:

It is known to us and to you that those who are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin.

These statements are consistent with the understanding of the Church contained in the documents of Vatican II, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church, as well as explaining why the rigorist position of Fr. Feeney (that all must be actual members of the Catholic Church to be saved) has been condemned by the Magisterium. It is ironic that precisely those who know their obligation to remain united to the Magisterium, and thus on whom this doctrine is morally binding, keep themselves from union with the Roman See on this point.

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Answered by Colin B. Donovan, STL

 

[wasserfall]

Your opinion does not make it so.

It is not just my opinion. It has always been the general consensus of dogmatists as expressed in, for example, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ott, has been consistently taught by the Church over the entire history of the Church and thus is an infallible statement of the ordinary magisterium, and furthermore, the quote I have repeated multiple times from the Council of Florence takes the form of a formal definition by an ecumenical council of the Church. It is an infallible statement.

 

[wasserfall]

It is known to us and to you that those who are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin.

Indeed, but pay close attention to this excerpt:

“God … in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin.”

The only way in which such an invincibly ignorant person could be saved is if they are culpable of no sin.

Personally I don’t know of anyone who fits that description.
Maybe all of your protestant friends and relatives are sinless. I hope so. That would be very nice.

 

[TrueLight]

I wonder if there is purgatory for Protestants…

 

[wasserfall]

I wonder if there is purgatory for Protestants…

There is one purgatory for any person who dies in the state of grace, who has not yet made sufficient reparation for sins committed.

 

[clem456]

Indeed, but pay close attention to this excerpt:

“God … in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin.”

The only way in which such an invincibly ignorant person could be saved is if they are culpable of no sin.

Personally I don’t know of anyone who fits that description.
Maybe all of your protestant friends and relatives are sinless. I hope so. That would be very nice.

No, No and N O.
The definition being thrown around of what constitutes salvation, and what constitues being taken into the bosom of the Church, is so narrow as to include possibly our Blessed Mother Mary exclusively.
The definition of the word “subsists” in Church teaching is key for everyone to learn. It does not mean “consists exclusively of” exterior and rigorist criteria.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

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Notice the last line.

You can’t just take those lines out of context. People never want to quote the rest of the paragraph. That part of the catechism comes from Lumen Gentium and there is more following what you quoted:

"But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”,(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention."

And:

"As the Son was sent by the Father,(131) so He too sent the Apostles, saying: “Go, therefore, make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days even to the consummation of the world”.(132) The Church has received this solemn mandate of Christ to proclaim the saving truth from the apostles and must carry it out to the very ends of the earth.(133) Wherefore she makes the words of the Apostle her own: “Woe to me, if I do not preach the Gospel”,(

Men follow lies out of their own vanity. It is very scarey when we see so many of our loved ones today leaving the Catholic church for another church or we have close friends who are of a different denomination. We want so hard to believe it is okay, “at least they are Christians” we tell ourselves. We want so hard to believe they will go to heaven or to believe that someone who has died outside the Catholic church is in heaven.

It’s scarey. That is why so many people get upset when they hear there is no salvation outside the Catholic church but it is what the church has taught and continues to teach.

And following your quote the catechism quotes this 851:

"Those who obey the prompting of the Spirit of truth are already on the way of salvation. But the Church, to whom this truth has been entrusted, must go out to meet their desire, so as to bring them the truth. Because she believes in God’s universal plan of salvation, the Church must be missionary".

Just like the prodigal son, they are searching and headed home but we must go out and meet them, just as the prodigal sons father did. We truly need to be bringing people into the Church. That is tough love and it is hard because people many times don’t want to hear it. Don’t settle. Pray. It works. It brought me home. I am so grateful for the people who refused to believe I was okay as long as I went to church, even a protestant church.

 

[mattkubes]

The definition of the word “subsists” in Church teaching is key for everyone to learn. It does not mean “consists exclusively of” exterior and rigorist criteria.

That terminology is alien to Catholic Tradition. It has not been formally defined and clarified, and until that time we would do well not to pit Vatican II against constant Catholic teaching. For example, Pius XII said this is Humani Generis:
Humani Generis:

Some say they are not bound by the doctrine, explained in Our Encyclical Letter of a few years ago, and based on the Sources of Revelation, which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing.[6] Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation. Others finally belittle the reasonable character of the credibility of Christian faith.

 

[wasserfall]

The definition being thrown around of what constitutes salvation, and what constitues being taken into the bosom of the Church, is so narrow as to include possibly our Blessed Mother Mary exclusively.

Utterly false. All baptized Catholics who have not incurred excommunication are in the bosom of the Church.

The definition of the word “subsists” in Church teaching is key for everyone to learn. It does not mean “consists exclusively of” exterior and rigorist criteria.

No one has any firm idea of what “subsists” is supposed to mean in Lumen Gentium, which may be why the word was chosen – it is malleable.

However, the constant teaching of the Church is that the Church is the mystical body of Christ., and the Holy See has confirmed multiple times over the past 40 years that Lumen Gentium does not change this historical teaching of the Church.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

Utterly false. All baptized Catholics who have not incurred excommunication are in the bosom of the Church.

No one has any firm idea of what “subsists” is supposed to mean in Lumen Gentium, which may be why the word was chosen – it is malleable.

However, the constant teaching of the Church is that the Church is the mystical body of Christ., and the Holy See has confirmed multiple times over the past 40 years that Lumen Gentium does not change this historical teaching of the Church.

So true.

 

[clem456]

No one has any firm idea of what “subsists” is supposed to mean in Lumen Gentium, which may be why the word was chosen – it is malleable.

.

Give it a shot, it is doable.

 

[MariaG]

You can’t just take those lines out of context. People never want to quote the rest of the paragraph. That part of the catechism comes from Lumen Gentium and there is more following what you quoted:

"But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”,(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention."

And:

"As the Son was sent by the Father,(131) so He too sent the Apostles, saying: “Go, therefore, make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days even to the consummation of the world”.(132) The Church has received this solemn mandate of Christ to proclaim the saving truth from the apostles and must carry it out to the very ends of the earth.(133) Wherefore she makes the words of the Apostle her own: “Woe to me, if I do not preach the Gospel”,(

Men follow lies out of their own vanity. It is very scarey when we see so many of our loved ones today leaving the Catholic church for another church or we have close friends who are of a different denomination. We want so hard to believe it is okay, “at least they are Christians” we tell ourselves. We want so hard to believe they will go to heaven or to believe that someone who has died outside the Catholic church is in heaven.

It’s scarey. That is why so many people get upset when they hear there is no salvation outside the Catholic church but it is what the church has taught and continues to teach.

And following your quote the catechism quotes this 851:

"Those who obey the prompting of the Spirit of truth are already on the way of salvation. But the Church, to whom this truth has been entrusted, must go out to meet their desire, so as to bring them the truth. Because she believes in God’s universal plan of salvation, the Church must be missionary".

Just like the prodigal son, they are searching and headed home but we must go out and meet them, just as the prodigal sons father did. We truly need to be bringing people into the Church. That is tough love and it is hard because people many times don’t want to hear it. Don’t settle. Pray. It works. It brought me home. I am so grateful for the people who refused to believe I was okay as long as I went to church, even a protestant church.

I ignore nothing. And my subsequent posts clearly state that we must continue to evangelize. And I said nothing about those who are Cathilic and leave the Church. Not anything about any specific religion at all in fact. I am continuing to comment that nothing is impossible with God. And I would further say possibility does not translate to probability.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

I ignore nothing. And my subsequent posts clearly state that we must continue to evangelize. And I said nothing about those who are Cathilic and leave the Church. Not anything about any specific religion at all in fact. I am continuing to comment that nothing is impossible with God.

I didn’t say you ignored anything or you were talking about any denomination specifically at all. I agree you did say earlier that we must continue to evangelize but I was responding to your quote from the catechism and just making points that we need to not take it out of context. Just because there is a possibility that someone may be saved doesn’t mean they will be saved. My point was the catechism and Lumen Gentium wouldn’t stress such a mandate of preaching about the Catholic faith if we didn’t need to bring people into the Church. It also states that people will suffer because of their following after lies. Right after your quote from Lumen Gentium there is the word “but” meaning something contrasting what has been said.

You are right. There is nothing impossible with God. It is certainly apparent we are mandated to cooperate with God and his teaching. Also, the word “may” doesn’t translate to the words “is” or “will”.

Blessings.

 

[wasserfall]

I am continuing to comment that nothing is impossible with God.

This is certainly true.

However, when someone attempts to use this argument to contradict or relativize the constant doctrine of the Church (and I am not meaning to say or imply that you are doing so), then they make a fundamental error by not recognizing that the dogmas of the Church are divinely revealed truths. In them God tells us how He operates. The dogma is how God, in His freedom, chooses to work.

 

[MariaG]

I didn’t say you ignored anything or you were talking about any denomination specifically at all. I agree you did say earlier that we must continue to evangelize but I was responding to your quote from the catechism and just making points that we need to not take it out of context. Just because there is a possibility that someone may be saved doesn’t mean they will be saved. My point was the catechism and Lumen Gentium wouldn’t stress such a mandate of preaching about the Catholic faith if we didn’t need to bring people into the Church. It also states that people will suffer because of their following after lies. Right after your quote from Lumen Gentium there is the word “but” meaning something contrasting what has been said.

You are right. There is nothing impossible with God. It is certainly apparent we are mandated to cooperate with God and his teaching. Also, the word “may” doesn’t translate to the words “is” or “will”.

Blessings.

Absolutely.

My concern in posting what I did is that just as some think that posting what I did, I am not paying attention to the “but”, it seems that this thread many are focused on the “but”, to exclusion of the possibility that God can choose to make anyone a member of His Church however He wants, including a person who is not an official member. I was just trying to add the balance of possibility.

The fact that the possibility is very slim does not negate the possibility.

It is a shame, however, when some take the possibility as an excuse to ignore our duty as Catholics or think that since there relatives are a “good people” who happens to be a Buddhist, Protestant(fill in the religion), that we don’t have to tell them about the fullness of truth of Christ. I do not want “good people” who are Christians, Buddhist, whatever but not Catholics to go to hell because I failed to share the fullness of the truth with them.

And completely understand the concern of many in this thread that the possibilities not be emphasized due to probabilities.

God Bless