No it is an answer. I agree completely with Pope Pius IX, that a person who is outside the Church through invincible ignorance can be saved IF he dies being culpable of no grave sin whatsoever, including original sin.This is just away not to answer. I must conclude that you indeed hold a position that the Church condemns.
No it’s not. That’s called CalvinismThe means of salvation is offered to all, but only the elect accept it and are subsequently saved. That is the constant and current teaching of the Church on this matter.
Wrong again. The book of revelation is open to interpretation for any catholic.Their names were written in the book of life from before the foundation of the earth (Apocalypse 13:8 & 17:8).
Well, you don’t seem to want to answer my question, but I’ll post it one more time, just in case.Vatican II changed no teaching of the Church whatsoever.
This has been confirmed multiple times by not only the currently reigning Pope.
Indeed Vatican II was not capable of changing Catholic dogma in any way whatsoever.
Double predestination is Calvinism and is condemned. But predestination is an infallible Catholic teaching and I strongly suggest that you at least read some introductory material on it. Do not be so quick to reject one of our dogmas.No it’s not. That’s called Calvinism
This is not a Catholic approach to Scripture. When the Holy Ghost says that the names of those saved were written in the Book of Life before the foundation of the earth, we are not free to disagree.Wrong again. The book of revelation is open to interpretation for any catholic.
There is no way I can know what the author of that sentence meant by it, but I understand it to mean the same thing as Pope Pius IX when he said:Well, you don’t seem to want to answer my question, but I’ll post it one more time, just in case.
What does the CCC mean by this:
CCC 1260: … "Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved… "
The Church teaches that sufficient grace is given to every man for him to save his soul.And What did JPII mean by this:
“Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all”.
Lastly, I will point out to you that, although the CCC is an authoritative document, it is not a document of the highest authority. It is fallible and if it is understood in such a way as to contradict Catholic dogma, understood in the way that the Church has always taught an understood it, then either the CCC is being misunderstood, or the CCC is wrong.What does the CCC mean by this
True. But there are those who claim that salvation for those people is not even possible. When individuals say one thing, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church says another, I will go with the CCC.Noted. But it would be extremely irresponsible of us to rely on this theological possibility. It suggests that salvation is possible, not guaranteed, for someone who has had zero exposure to Christ’s truth and who nonetheless follows the Natural Law perfectly and complies with the graces he receives. Graces that this hypothetical person doesn’t know exist. Is it possible? With God, all things are possible. But it seems to be a remote chance from any practical point of view.
Hence the Church’s mission to baptize all nations. Not just to baptize some and cross our fingers for the rest!
I believe it’s authority is higher than yours. Only my personal opinion, of course.Lastly, I will point out to you that, although the CCC is an authoritative document, it is not a document of the highest authority.
True, but I do not say anything on my own authority. I have quoted popes, saints, and doctors of the Church, as well as an infallible definition by an ecumenical council.I believe it’s authority is higher than yours. Only my personal opinion, of course.
Yes, and think how uncommon this is even amongst Catholics who have access to superabundant graces through the Sacraments. Apart from a special grace from God, the chance of someone persisting in a life of grace apart from the Church is vanishingly small. And yet people still hook onto this infinitesimally minute possibility to challenge the traditional teaching and interpretation of EENS. It’s mind-boggling, really.But notice how the Catechism conveniently leaves out the last sentence, wherein the blessed Pope specifies that he is speaking of men who are not culpable of any grave sin.
It certainly is. The Catholic church has no official interpretation on the book of revelation,This is not a Catholic approach to Scripture. When the Holy Ghost says that the names of those saved were written in the Book of Life before the foundation of the earth, we are not free to disagree.
Friend, there are many points of scripture on which we can have a legitimate discussion, but we are not free to reject one of the dogmas of the Church. There is a Catholic understanding of predestination. There always has been.It certainly is. The Catholic church has no official interpretation on the book of revelation,
Ask any theologian.
I’m not so sure that the Catholic Church has always taught that “only those persons who are actually members of the Catholic Church can be saved.” How about Protestants who practice some of the Sacraments and are baptized in the name of the Triune G-d? They are not actual members of the Catholic Church. Would they too be denied salvation on this basis?No, this is not possible. Only those persons who are actually members of the Catholic Church can be saved.
You are kind of on the right track though. When people can see the love of Christ through members of the Church, they are attracted to the Church, which can lead to their conversion.
Yes it would be. No salvation outside of the Church has always been interpreted to mean that actual membership in the Church is necessary for salvation. To understand it otherwise is a new interpretation, and such a new interpretation is not possible.
It is the will of God that all human beings whatsoever are formally received into the Catholic Church.
Yes, but drawing nearer to the ark won’t save anybody. they have to actually be in the ark to have eternal life.
Just as all people who were outside the ark of Noah suffered death in the deluge, so also all people who are outside the Church will suffer eternal death. Even being so close as to touch the exterior of the ark of Noah was not enough to save those outside, and even being so close to the Church will not avail for the salvation of one who remains outside.
Kathryn, What I do to shield myself from the negative hauntings of Protestantism is ware a “Michael the Archangel” metal. That also protects me from protestant labels like, “legalism”.Oh my! I’ve come across similar things these first several years as a Catholic convert!
I think I’m getting better, now that I understand that many people have not experienced real Protestantism as some converts have.
There are so many errors in Protestantism, so many falsehoods, such lack of understanding the true history of the Church, that I think some are led down a dangerous path. New trends come up, and sometimes I question them if they seem “Protestant” in feeling or nature.
But yes, as a fairly new convert, I recognize how legalistic I am sometimes, then other times, I might not always understand what I see happening in the Church hierarchy. I began this thread because I saw so much ecumenism that I wondered how I should live out my life as a Catholic. How to live in peace with people of other faiths while speaking the Truth of Christ’s Holy Church?
Everyone here has been very patient with me on this particular question. Now I see that I can learn a new balance: I can speak the truth in love and also speak up when people of other religions are following grave errors. I must also care for them and pray for them and not pretend that all is well if they remain outside the Ark of the Church.
I really appreciate all these replies and yours, and as I just posted a few moments ago, these forums are very helpful to me and I am so very grateful!
Kathryn Ann:heaven:
Sacred Tradition
Many people who claim that God restricts salvation to baptized Catholics cite the Fathers of the Church to prove their assertions. While space does not allow an exhaustive analysis of the Fathers, there are several necessary points to keep in mind. First, the Fathers must be understood in the context of their writings, not in the context of the one quoting them. The majority of the Fathers who wrote on this topic were concerned about those who had once believed or had heard the truth, but now rejected it. Many of them believed the entire world had heard the Gospel. Their words were not directed at those who, by no fault of their own, did not know the Gospel of Christ. …
Throughout the history of the Church, the Magisterium has accepted and synthesized these teachings. Recognizing that God will judge our hearts according to the gifts we have received, invincible ignorance — that is, ignorance which cannot be overcome by ordinary means — tempers divine justice. Those who have knowledge of the truth are expected to accept it. Those who have not been given this gift will be judged according to the law written on their hearts. Two noteworthy examples of this position are found in Pope Boniface VIII’s bull Unam Sanctam and Pope Pius IX’s encyclical Quanto Conficiamur Moerore
Pius IX clearly expressed the full teaching a century ago. His writing distinguishes between those who are invincibly ignorant and those who have willfully separated themselves from the Catholic Church:
“There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches, and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, His supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments. Also well-known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved [without] the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior.” Sacrament of Salvation
This teaching of Christ and His Church is not meant to allow indifferentism or exclusivism. Baptism and unity with the Catholic Church provide the only assurance of salvation, but not the only means. “God has bound salvation to the Sacrament of Baptism, but He Himself is not bound by His sacraments” (Catechism, no. 1257, original emphasis). …
Because God is not bound by the sacraments, He makes the grace of salvation available to all in ways unknown to us. This is the basis for the Church’s teaching on “Baptism of desire” (cf. Catechism, nos. 1258-60, 1281). This occurs, for example, when one seeks Baptism but dies first, or when one dies without explicit knowledge of Christ, but would have embraced the truth had it been presented. Only God can judge their souls.
Thank you, for teaching the true doctrine.Indeed, but pay close attention to this excerpt:
“God … in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin.”
The only way in which such an invincibly ignorant person could be saved is if they are culpable of no sin.
Personally I don’t know of anyone who fits that description.
Maybe all of your protestant friends and relatives are sinless. I hope so. That would be very nice.
No, the condemned position is feeneyism, which denies the existence of baptism of blood and baptism of desire.This is just away not to answer. I must conclude that you indeed hold a position that the Church condemns.