Has Ecumenism changed the meaning of EENS?

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ImmaculataFides said:
No, the condemned position is feeneyism, which denies the existence of baptism of blood and baptism of desire.
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Yes that was part but the Church also condemened that all must be actual members of the Catholic Church to be saved.
 
adrift said:
Yes that was part but the Church also condemened that all must be actual members of the Catholic Church to be saved.
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Yes. The possibility that God can choose to make someone a member of His Church outside of the sacraments should never be denied.
 
I’m a firm believer in get Baptiste in Christ don’t do people over. and you’ll be judged accordingly to his will. I can’t imagine God throwing some Evangelical protestant into hell for not taking communion at the Catholic church. Its such a roulette process anyway, who is anyone to judge?
 
Jessup said:
I’m a firm believer in get Baptiste in Christ don’t do people over. and you’ll be judged accordingly to his will. I can’t imagine God throwing some Evangelical protestant into hell for not taking communion at the Catholic church. Its such a roulette process anyway, who is anyone to judge?
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We can’t judge. We can know though that we KNOW you are part of Christ’s Church if you are Catholic. Can’t Know all Catholics are going to heaven but we know you must be a member of Christ’s church to go, and the only way we on earth know for sure is if you are a card carrying Catholic. (or a member of the other lung!)

And we are unable to judge if God puts anyone not a member of the Catholic Church in His Church.

But we also know that God does judge harshly those who have the truth but walk away from it. That is something Evangelicals would agree with also. So a Catholic who walks away from the fullness of truth found in the Catholic Church is not a good scenario.
 
thistle said:
Two Church teachings:
  • Baptism is NECESSARY for salvation (but does not ensure it. you must die in a state of grace)
  • There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church
How can someone be baptized and a Catholic?
  • Sacramental Baptism as a Catholic
  • Baptism of Blood (non-Catholic dying for the Catholic faith)
  • Baptism of desire - Explicit (those who want to know more about Christ and have the desire to get baptized but die before sacramental baptism - e.g.those in RCIA)
  • Baptism of Desire - Implicit (those who may (not will) be saved through invincible ignorance meaning those who through no fault of their own do not know Christ, his Gospel and his Church but nevertheless in that ignorance still live a life in accordance with Christ’s teachings)
You may debate who is captured under invincible ignorance but outside the above four forms of baptism there is no salvation.

Not all Catholics are saved but everyone in Heaven is Catholic.
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MariaG said:
We can’t judge. We can know though that we KNOW you are part of Christ’s Church if you are Catholic. Can’t Know all Catholics are going to heaven but we know you must be a member of Christ’s church to go, and the only way we on earth know for sure is if you are a card carrying Catholic. (or a member of the other lung!)

And we are unable to judge if God puts anyone not a member of the Catholic Church in His Church.

But we also know that God does judge harshly those who have the truth but walk away from it. That is something Evangelicals would agree with also. So a Catholic who walks away from the fullness of truth found in the Catholic Church is not a good scenario.
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Baptism makes us part of the Catholic Church. There is only one baptism and anyone may baptize that is why those denominations who baptized have a legitimate sacrament.
Many people translate the Latin phrase extra acclaim nulla salus as “Outside the Church there is no salvation.” This translation does not seem entirely faithful to the Latin meaning, and contributes to the misunderstanding of the phrase.
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The Latin word “extra” is both an adverb and preposition. Depending on its use in a sentence, the word has different meanings. When used to describe spatial relations between objects, the word is translated as “beyond” or “outside of” (e.g., Beyond the creek is a tree; or, James is outside of the room). When used to describe abstract relations between concepts or intangible things, the word is commonly translated “without” (e.g., Without a method, it is difficult to teach). Within the phrase in question, extra is a preposition describing the abstract relationship of the Church to salvation. Considering the Latin nuances of the word, a proper translation would be, “Without the Church there is no salvation.” This translation more accurately reflects the doctrinal meaning of the phrase.
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[NO SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CHURCH
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Code: 
                    by Fr. William Most](http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/EXTRAECC.TXT)   It is a defined doctrine that there is no salvation outside the Church.
Yet, as the Holy Office pointed out in condemning L. Feeney (DS 3866) we
must understand this the way the Church means it, not by private
interpretation.
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First we find that the Church insists many times over that those who
through no fault of their own do not find the Church, but keep the moral
law with the help of grace, can be saved:
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It is not up to anyone but God to decide that the salvation can be attained but is impossible to do so. :rolleyes:
 
adrift said:
Baptism makes us part of the Catholic Church. There is only one baptism and anyone may baptize that is why those denominations who baptized have a legitimate sacrament.
:
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Yes but there are 3 sacraments that make up the sacraments of Christian initiation of which the full grace of until after confirmation.

But the difficulties that arise in a christian walk without the strengthening of confirmation or the nourishment from the Eucharist…we cannot and should not be content that someone is a Christian.
 
MariaG said:
Yes but there are 3 sacraments that make up the sacraments of Christian initiation of which the full grace of until after confirmation.

But the difficulties that arise in a christian walk without the strengthening of confirmation or the nourishment from the Eucharist…we cannot and should not be content that someone is a Christian.
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Can’t agree with you more. As Catholics, we have much more access to graces that help. us. We should actively bring others to the fullness but we shouldn’t misrepresent what the Church teaches.
 
adrift said:
Can’t agree with you more. As Catholics, we have much more access to graces that help. us. We should actively bring others to the fullness but we shouldn’t misrepresent what the Church teaches.
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In your opinion have I misrepresented Church teaching and if so in what way?
 
wasserfall said:
Indeed, but pay close attention to this excerpt:

“God … in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin.”

The only way in which such an invincibly ignorant person could be saved is if they are culpable of no sin.

Personally I don’t know of anyone who fits that description.
Maybe all of your protestant friends and relatives are sinless. I hope so. That would be very nice.
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What is that about? (your words I have placed in bold). Please stop with your personal, snarky remarks.
 
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severus68:
What is that about? (your words I have placed in bold). Please stop with your personal, snarky remarks.

It’s about Pope Boniface VIII and the papal bull “UNAM SANCTAM” (1302). A political move more than anything which was quickly abandoned by his near predecessors and every pope since then as just that: politics.

Since there were no protestants at the time, it was easy for him to declare that “anyone outside the Catholic church” could not be saved. Like I said, it was purely political and was dismissed by the church centuries ago.

The adherents to this idea reject the statements by any succeeding pontiff, Vatican II or the CCC regarding this issue.
 
ImmaculataFides said:
It’s not at odds with the Catechism. Your interpretation is faulty.
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No, yours is:

CCC 1260: … "Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved… "

Tell me, how do you interpret this?

John Paul II:

“Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all”.

Again how would you interpret this?
 
reconman said:
No, yours is:

CCC 1260: … "Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved… "

John Paul II:

“Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all”.
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What exactly did he say that is contrary to the Catechism? If you are trying to teach universalism, that is utter heresy and has been infallibly condemned by the perennial magisterium of the Church.
 
ImmaculataFides said:
What exactly did he say that is contrary to the Catechism? If you are trying to teach universalism, that is utter heresy and has been infallibly condemned by the perennial magisterium of the Church.
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I might be mistaken here, do you consider ccc 1260 a valid teaching of the church or not ?

And if so , do you consider JPII’s statement to be in agreement with that teaching or not?

I was under the impression that you adhere to the “doctrine” that no one outside the catholic church can be saved, but I could be wrong and if I am I apologize
 
We all agree that through baptism one becomes a member of Christ’s Church. I do not believe I need to post anything confirming this do I?

Since the Church does not require Protestants who have had a trinitarian baptism to get baptized before they become Catholic, does that not mean the Church recognizes that they are already members of the Church before they are formally Catholic? or they would need to be “properly” baptized and if so why does the Church not require this if they are not members of His Church already?

And if baptism alone does not make one a member of Christ’s church, how do we justify not giving confirmation and the Eucharist to babies of the are not really members of the church because of their baptism?
 
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