Has Ecumenism changed the meaning of EENS?

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sdegutis said:
Having looked at what thistle’s post, and having read your interpretation of the same data, and having carefully considered both sides, I have no choice but to conclude that thistle’s position doesn’t make any logical fallacies, and I can’t find a single specific fallacy that you claim he has made. However it does appear that you’re either lacking information or imagination in trying to understand his point of view. Either way, I can’t find a single flaw in what he has said.
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One more I guess:

CCC 1260: … "Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved… "
 
reconman said:
You are, and I’ll ask you again, is this Jew going to hell simply because he refused an invitation to become a catholic?

That’s completely within your hypothetical
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No, that’s not “simply” why. If this man was morally upright but refused to join the Catholic Church, then why did he refuse to join the Catholic Church, and in what way is his reason for his refusal somehow not sinful? I can’t imagine an actual reason. In fact, I have half a mind to ask you: what do you think Jesus Christ came here to do, if we didn’t need to join His Church through Baptism in order to be saved? Why then did he tell us to preach the gospel to all nations, baptizing them into His Church?

But more importantly, I would recommend examining thistle’s points in depth and discussing calmly any difficulties you have in understanding them. They are very in line with the Catholic Church’s teaching, so I’m confident that we will be able to sort out any misunderstandings or disagreements you might have about them.
 
reconman said:
thewanderer;9368626:
reconman;9368621:
good grief, ok one more time:

CCC 1260: … "Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved… "
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I guess you didn’t pay attention to the part where me and Thistle both agreed that one can become a Catholic through the implicit baptism of desire
  • Baptism of Desire - Implicit (those who may (not will) be saved through invincible ignorance meaning those who through no fault of their own do not know Christ, his Gospel and his Church but nevertheless in that ignorance still live a life in accordance with Christ’s teachings)
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In which we are admitting that there is a poosibility that such a person be saved. 🤷
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reconman said:
One more I guess:

CCC 1260: … "Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved… "
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I’ve read that passage when you posted it the first few times. In fact I’ve also read the surrounding context:
“Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.
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The very same CCC passage explains more fully that such a peson would have entered the Church (through Baptism) if they had known about it, but were invincibly ignorant of it. Thus in my hypothetical the person’s invincible ignorance is stripped away, and they are forced to make a choice that proves their real loyalty: truth or error.
 
reconman said:
No not exactly. We can put all this to rest. Each of you, go ask a priest whether a non catholic can be saved or not. Reference him to ccc 1260. You’re gonna find out that yes they can.
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Yes, someone who is currently a non-Catholic can be saved, but only through one of the forms of baptism presented by Thistle.
 
Ok, here is Thistle’s original post ( the two important parts anyway) :
thistle said:
– There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church
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This is completely false
thistle said:
Not all Catholics are saved but everyone in Heaven is Catholic.
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This is also false.

Again, just read the ccc or ask a priest or better yet, do both. Why you people keep holding on to this fairytale that only catholics can be in heaven is beyond me. It is not the teaching of the church.
 
reconman said:
Ok, here is Thistle’s original post ( the two important parts anyway) :

This is completely false

This is also false.

Again, just read the ccc or ask a priest or better yet, do both.
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Again you have failed to bother to actually understand all of what Thistle is saying.

If you understood what he meant by there is no saalvation outside of the Church I’m actually quite confident that you would agree with him, but for some reason you refuse to actually pay attention to what he is saying and instead insist on interpreting what he is saying as something completely different. Read his whole post. Read my whole original post. No, take a break and calm down, then come back and re-read both posts keeping in mind that they do not say what you think they say. Make an effort to figure out what they actually say as opposed to what you currently believe that they say. I honestly think we can work this out if you’re willing to be open to the possibility that neither I nor Thistle are claiming what you seem to think that we are.
 
thewanderer said:
Again you have failed to bother to actually understand all of what Thistle is saying.

If you understood what he meant by there is no saalvation outside of the Church I’m actually quite confident that you would agree with him, but for some reason you refuse to actually pay attention to what he is saying and instead insist on interpreting what he is saying as something completely different. Read his whole post. Read my whole original post. No, take a break and calm down, then come back and re-read both posts keeping in mind that they do not say what you think they say. Make an effort to figure out what they actually say as opposed to what you currently believe that they say. I honestly think we can work this out if you’re willing to be open to the possibility that neither I nor Thistle are claiming what you seem to think that we are.
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I read what you both said. I’ve read every post on this thread, So I’ll whittle it down for you:

Can a Lutheran be saved?
 
reconman said:
This is completely false
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What about this?
“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
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Or this?
Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 – 1216): “With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved.” (Denzinger 423)
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Or this?
Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 – 604): “Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.” (Moralia )
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Or this?
Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 – 1878): “It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.” (Denzinger 1647)
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Or this?
Saint Augustine (died A.D. 430): “No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church.” (Sermo ad Caesariensis Ecclesia plebem )
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reconman said:
I read what you both said. I’ve read every post on this thread, So I’ll whittle it down for you:

Can a Lutheran be saved?
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Yes, if he is baptized through one of the already mentioned forms of Baptism.

[Edit: This is not the only requirement for his salvation. Baptism is **never the only requirement for salvation, but it is a requirement.]
 
sdegutis said:
What about this?

Or this?

Or this?

Or this?

Or this?
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Nice try, those are all quotes from popes and saints who lived before the reformation. (except for Pius IX), and that was encyclical dealing with heresy inside the church Since the catholic church was the only Christian Church back then, what else would you have them say?

And you still didn’t address this:

John Paul II:

“Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all”.
 
People are looking at this in a temporal sense, and when this happens we lose sight that God and Heaven exists beyond time.

I can safely say that only Catholics are in Heaven, because upon death God perhaps gives people a chance to acknowledge Him and the fullness of Truth of the Catholic faith once they die. This way, those on Earth who aren’t Catholic get one more chance to accept Jesus. I believe this is where “invincible ignorance” and the like come into play, where upon their death Jesus shows Himself and the person says “oh crud, I HAD NO IDEA! I acknowledge you and your Church, Lord”.

So could a righteous and virtuous Jew make it into Heaven? If once they die and profess the Catholic faith to Jesus Christ Himself then I would say yes. But WILL they say yes? Who knows. How they are on Earth and the attitude they carry will likely influence their answer. Protestants are a whole other bag of worms due to a shared Baptism and other such things.

Anyway, that’s my theory, which I have zero idea if anyone within Church history has thought of it or written anything resembling what I posted above. It doesn’t seem heretical though, which is always a good thing!
 
thewanderer said:
Yes, if he is baptized through one of the already mentioned forms of Baptism.
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What if he was never exposed to the catholic church? What if he liked his Lutheran religion and politely turned down an offer to join the catholic church? Still going to heaven?
 
The key here is understanding that one enters the Catholic Church via Baptism as through a door, so to speak.

And since we know there can be valid Baptisms performed outside of the Catholic Church, as long as they have the right form, matter, and intent, this means these Baptisms allow real entrance into the Catholic Church in a manner of speaking.

But only through truly invincible ignorance does one remain within the Catholic Church without actually being part of the visible Catholic Church. And this is where the grey area is, in defining what constitutes “invincible ignorance” for any given person. The good news though is that in a practical sense this doesn’t matter to us, only to God. For our part, we only need to make sure we let people know about our lovely and True Faith and invite them to know Jesus Christ the most fully they can, through our beloved Church.
 
reconman said:
What if he was never exposed to the catholic church? What if he liked his Lutheran religion and politely turned down an offer to join the catholic church? Still going to heaven?
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If he manages to receive baptism through one of the forms presented despite this, then yes, he has a shot at salvation.

If not, then no, not a chance.
 
thewanderer said:
If he manages to receive baptism through one of the forms presented despite this, then yes, he has a shot at salvation.

If not, then no, not a chance.
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And how would you reconcile your assumption with this:

CCC 1260: … "Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved… "
 
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