Please read what people have actually been saying. no one has denied that everyone has the possibiliy to get to heaven. Everyone admits this possibility. Some just find it hard to believe that it will happen often whereas others take a more optimistic view. Either way, the disagreement is not about the possibility that such people be saved. everyone has admitted that anyone has a chance at getting to heaven if they behave the correct way
At this point it’s about whether one believes many people will be saved, or just a few. I think both parties agree to the Church’s statements on this, but take the implications differently.
He has I believe changed his position. Note my bolding.Look at the bolded parts of Wasserfall’s posts. Understand that he is coming at this from the point of view that very very few if any are actually saved. But his posts themselves indicate that he is willing to accept the possibility of salvation.
I don’t see that as a change in his position. I hold those statements as true without denying the possibility that anyone be saved. Here is the important qualification that must be kept in mind, anyone has the possibility to become an actual member of the churn through any one of the forms of baptism. So even if some Jew dies without receiving the sacrament of baptism noone can say for certain what his fate will be as noone can know whether or not he received baptism by desire (whether implicit or explicit) before he died. If he did receive sub a baptism he has become an actual member of the Catholic Churh’s and can attain salvation, if not, then he remains outside the Church and will no attain salvation. Saying that there is no Salvation outside the Church does not mean that you think no one can get to heaven without the sacrament of baptism (ie baptism by water) what it is saying is that without entry to the Church, which is able to happen in an invisible and mysterious way even without sacramental baptism because of God’s infinite power, no one will ge to heaven. In other words, if God thinks the upright Jew, Pagan etc is worthy of heaven God will give him the Grace to become Catholic even if the rest of us are not aware of it, an so bring him to salvation. I hope this helps clear up the confusion.
This is how I understand it too. It has been my constant postion. I do not see his statement
or
as the same as this position. He has never addressed it directly. When I asked, he just said he agreed with the Pope.
Right. But we should be careful not to conflate the Church’s interpretation with private interpretation.
Right. Just like with St. Augustine, he chases us lovingly and continuously showers us with graces of conversion to Him. I love the book Confessions of Saint Augustine because it shows in a concrete way how God chooses to save non-Catholics like Saint Augustine.
He also said “he who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters.”
Or rather for the multitudes of Catholics throughout all time who will ultimately be in Heaven.
Just like Saint Augustine, the Greek philosopher and adulterer, or Saul the Jewish persecutor of the Church!
It isn’t about what we want. Religion is simply about what’s true. Which is what makes it so difficult for many people to accept, because it often contradicts our emotions, which can easily be distorted due to our fallen nature.
So does he love Satan then too? And will Satan be in Heaven too?
Me too.
Well, that’s kind of what I’m trying to get at. The statement “only those that are actually part of the Church can be saved” is not in and of itself false. As taught by the Popes throughout the ages it does not deny the possibility of the salvation of any individual. Wasserfall was not hanging his position when he said that everyone has the possibility to be saved, he was clarifying it. Many people misunderstand the phrase “there is no Salvation outside of the Church”. As traditionally held by the Church it does not deny the possibility that someone who doesn’t live as a visible Catholic can attain salvation, rather it affirms that if such a person attains salvation it will be through becoming a Catholic, albeit in a mysterious and invisible way. If you press anybody who holds this doctrine to tell you whether or not they admit the possibility that those who do not live visibly as members of the Church the vast majority will admit tue possibility, as Wasserfall and I have both done, showing that they understand this teaching the correct way and that the only reason other people think they are wron is because they do not understand the actual position held. The vast majority of the time his argument comes down to a simple misunderstanding.
This is what I was getting at in the last part of the post. This is bang on the money.
The bolded is an excellent attitude to have, IMHO!
Yes misunderstandings often result in a discussion with both sides believing the same thing.Well, that’s kind of what I’m trying to get at. The statement “only those that are actually part of the Church can be saved” is not in and of itself false. As taught by the Popes throughout the ages it does not deny the possibility of the salvation of any individual. Wasserfall was not hanging his position when he said that everyone has the possibility to be saved, he was clarifying it. Many people misunderstand the phrase “there is no Salvation outside of the Church”. As traditionally held by the Church it does not deny the possibility that someone who doesn’t live as a visible Catholic can attain salvation, rather it affirms that if such a person attains salvation it will be through becoming a Catholic, albeit in a mysterious and invisible way. If you press anybody who holds this doctrine to tell you whether or not they admit the possibility that those who do not live visibly as members of the Church the vast majority will admit tue possibility, as Wasserfall and I have both done, showing that they understand this teaching the correct way and that the only reason other people think they are wron is because they do not understand the actual position held. The vast majority of the time his argument comes down to a simple misunderstanding.
You think after we die people are going to be Catholic?
Good-bye.
I’m sorry, did you think I was referring to you? I was not.
No, it’s about what God wants.
No, but you were already talking about an opinion I happen to share and I wanted to engage the conversion. I guess I’m too late.
“For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.”
2 Corinthians 5:14-15
"Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff."
Unam Sanctam, Bull of Pope Boniface VIII promulgated November 18, 1302
Suppose a Conqueror lands on a previously unexplored continent, and annexes the whole of it under the banner of His King. Settlers of the Kingdom arrive. The Conqueror then leaves a Governor to take care of the settlers. However, there are natives in that continent. Since these natives lived in the continent before the Conqueror and the settlers arrived, logically these natives automatically become citizens of the kingdom, and thus under the jurisdiction of the Governor.
This is the case also with the Catholic Church. Since Jesus Christ “died for all” humans, all humans, even though they do not know it, can be bestowed with saving grace through means outside the Catholic Church. This was affirmed by the encyclical Sublimus Dei (“We, who, though unworthy, exercise on earth the power of our Lord and seek with all our might to bring those sheep of His flock who are outside into the fold committed to our charge”) which echoes the words of Jesus Christ Himself: "“I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice.” (John 10:16a)
However, there is a caveat here. Since all humans can be bestowed with saving grace outside the usual means of the Catholic Church and thus become the Lord’s sheep, all of the human race must necessarily be under the authority of the Pope.
Why? In continuing the above passage, Jesus Christ also said, “There will be one flock, one shepherd” (John 10:16b), the One Shepherd being Jesus Christ. And yet it was only to St. Peter whom Jesus said: “Feed my lambs…Tend my sheep…Feed my sheep.” (John 21:15, 16, 17). Therefore, Jesus left to St. Peter’s, and his successors’, care all of His sheep, in the fold (formally Catholic) or not.
In other words, each and every one human creature in the whole world is a Catholic in one sense or another.
And oh yes, another caveat: each and every Person in heaven is a Catholic
God bless us all.
I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect me to go back through a thread looking for your posts to reread. So, maybe if you want dialogue, you could include the post #. I asked that other guy to do this when he asked about something he posted, but he ignored me. You can, too, but srsly, it’s not like I have memorized who said what by screen name.
You were arguing post after post about many versus few, I didn’t see the point in referencing one particular post, and I restated the relevent part for your benefit.
