Has Eternal Life?

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Socrates4Jesus said:
I would like to explore, Michael (and i hope Guano and japhy come with us on this hike) whether God judges us for our deeds, or for our motives, or both, or neither. More importantly, i want to know how we can know one of these four possibilities is the truth. This will, in turn, help me better understand Romans 2, which is my goal at the moment.

To begin this exploration, i’d like to ask: Do you think the good things a person does are judged by God as good because (1) the acts themselves are virtuous? or (2) the reasons for doing those acts are virtuous? or (3) both? or (4) neither?
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God judges the whole person, flesh and soul, deed and thought.

A virtuous act is all the more virtuous (at least in my esteem) when it is done for a virtuous reason. Doing something out of a sense of strict obedience pales in comparison to doing that same thing out of love for the one you are obeying. Cleaning your room because your parents told you to is one thing; cleaning your room because you know it will please your parents is another. Repenting because you fear the torment of Hell is one thing; repenting because you love God and realize you have sinned against Him is quite another.
Socrates4Jesus said:
Two men are praying silently to God after mass at the same time in the same church. One man prays for mercy. Another man prays in gratitude, thanking God for his many blessings. Do you think both men are doing what is good, or just the former man, or just the later man, or neither man is doing what is good?
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Why do you ask me what is good? There is none good but God alone. Given what you’ve told me, similarities to the parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector notwithstanding, both men are “doing what is good”. If I knew their motives (as I’m sure God would) then I could answer more accurately. If the man praying in thanksgiving is exalting himself, then no, he is not “doing what is good”. If the man praying for mercy is praying in advance of committing an evil act (“God, forgive me for what I’m about to do…”) then I would say he is not “doing what is good”, because the kindness of God is meant to lead to repentance, not to transgression.
 
japhy said:
…Why do you ask me what is good? There is none good but God alone. Given what you’ve told me, similarities to the parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector notwithstanding, both men are “doing what is good”. If I knew their motives (as I’m sure God would) then I could answer more accurately. If the man praying in thanksgiving is exalting himself, then no, he is not “doing what is good”. If the man praying for mercy is praying in advance of committing an evil act (“God, forgive me for what I’m about to do…”) then I would say he is not “doing what is good”, because the kindness of God is meant to lead to repentance, not to transgression.
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Are you saying then, japhy, that sometimes it is evil to pray, praise God and thank Him? Is so, why is this the case? If not, why not?
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Are you saying then, japhy, that sometimes it is evil to pray, praise God and thank Him? Is so, why is this the case? If not, why not?
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I’m saying that Jesus said that the Pharisee in his parable (Luke 18:10-14) did not go home justified. Take from that what you will.
 
Originally Posted by Socrates4Jesus forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
Are you saying then, japhy, that sometimes it is evil to pray, praise God and thank Him? Is so, why is this the case? If not, why not?
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You’re presupposition is not right. Just because something is “not good” does not neccessarily mean it is evil.

Jesus said “no one is good but his father” does that mean we are all evil?

he is not “doing what is good”

does not equate to

he is “doing what is evil”
 
I would argue that judging our works includes judging our motives. Our motives determine whether our works are pleasing before God or not. If our works are not the fruits of love, than they are not pleasing before God and are not covered by the “good” mentioned in Romans 2.

God Bless,
Michael
 
Praising God and thanking Him with sincerity of heart is never evil. There are some, however, who worship God with their lips but their hearts are not right with God.

God Bless,
Michael
 
japhy said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socrates4Jesus forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
Are you saying then, japhy, that sometimes it is evil to pray, praise God and thank Him? Is so, why is this the case? If not, why not?

I’m saying that Jesus said that the Pharisee in his parable (Luke 18:10-14) did not go home justified. Take from that what you will.
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Lets look at that parable, japhy:

To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Notice three things that the religious man does:

  1. *]He prays to God.
    *]He thanked God.
    *]He praised God for all God had done for him.
    Yet, Jesus says the man was not justified before God. Why? Why did the Father not see the things the man did as good?

    I think Joey and Michael might have the answer. Joey or Michael: Please repeat why you think it is that the good things people say and do are not always seen in God’s eyes as good.
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Lets look at that parable, japhy:

To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Notice three things that the religious man does:

  1. *]He prays to God.
    *]He thanked God.
    *]He praised God for all God had done for him.
    Yet, Jesus says the man was not justified before God. Why? Why did the Father not see the things the man did as good?

    I think Joey and Michael might have the answer. Joey, or Michael: Please repeat why you think it is that the good things people say and do are not always seen in God’s eyes as good.
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  1. Good things are pleasing before God when they are done with the right motive, love of God and neighbor. The Catholic Church teaches that only those works done in a state of grace and out of love of God and neighbor are meritorious. The Pharisee failed to recognize the fact that his heart was far from God (i.e. in sin) and hence his prayer was worthless.

    God Bless,
    Michael
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Notice three things that the religious man does:

  1. *]He prays to God.
    *]He thanked God.
    *]He praised God for all God had done for him.
    Yet, Jesus says the man was not justified before God. Why? Why did the Father not see the things the man did as good?
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  1. “The religious man”? Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world. (James 1:27) Why do people insist on using the term “religious” in a derogatory manner? As if Catholics are “religious” and Evangelicals are “[something else]”.

    The Pharisee’s heart was not in the right place when the prayed. He was not speaking with love for his fellow man, but contempt and pride.
 
mikeledes said:
Good things are pleasing before God when they are done with the right motive, love of God and neighbor. The Catholic Church teaches that only those works done in a state of grace and out of love of God and neighbor are meritorious. The Pharisee failed to recognize the fact that his heart was far from God (i.e. in sin) and hence his prayer was worthless.

God Bless,
Michael
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Yes. 👍

And are right motives repentance, faith and love?
 
mikeledes said:
:hmmm: Why do I have the strange feeling that I’m being led into something? Works that are the fruits of faith and love are the only ones considered meritorious in Catholic theology:

Here is a link on reward and merit:

catholic.com/library/reward_and_merit.asp

God Bless,
Michael
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My hope is, Michael, that i’m leading us both to the truth. However, if my questions lead us to a lie, i will be the better for it, for you will be able to point this out to me.

What i’m trying to understand is what makes prayer good when it comes out of the mouth of one man and bad when it comes out of the mouth of another. One would think that praying, praising God and thanking Him are all good in themselves. Yet, Jesus makes a point of saying that when the Pharisee did these things God did not approve of them.

Now, i’m thinking that what makes the Pharisee’s prayer bad and the sinner’s prayer good cannot be the acts themselves but the motives behind those acts. Repentance, faith and love, when they are expressed in one’s actions are good. A lack of repentance, faith and love, when expressed in ones actions, are bad. The actions might be exactly the same for two people, but for one person it is good and for another it is bad. The reason is that their motives (not their actions) are different.

This seems reasonable to me, and i think you agree. Don’t you?
 
I’m curious what others think, as i think i’m starting to see the answer to my questions about the meaning of Romans chapter two, but i want to be certain.

Does anyone disagree that repentance, faith and love are motives that make a person’s actions good?

Does anyone disagree that self-righteous pride, fear and hatred are the motives that make a person’s actions evil?
 
Yes, japhy! 👍

And it occurred to me late last night as i asked God for wisdom that your Reason For Living, and mine as well, can be defined by three words beginning with the letters R, F and L:
  • R1 - Repentance (or admitting one needs to change)
  • F1 - Faith (or trusting completely in God)
  • L1 - Love (for God and others)
    While, on the other hand, the reasons for living of those who do not know Jesus as you and i do might be defined this way:
  • R2 - Rebellion (or self-righteous pride)
  • F2 - Fear (of the opinions of others or of giving up sin)
  • L2 - Loathing (or apathy or hatred of others and even God)
    In Jesus’ parable, then, the self-righteous man’s prayer was not seen as good in God’s eyes because his motives were R2, L2 and perhaps F2. In contrast the sinner’s prayer was seen as good in God’s eyes because his motives were R1, F1 and perhaps L1. In the example our Lord Jesus gives us, it is not what the men do but why they do it that determines whether their actions are virtue or vice. For both men did the same thing (i.e., they prayed) but one prayer was good and the other evil. It was their attitudes (or motives) not their actions that determined whether what they did was good.
I think we are correct in this. Now, the question for me to answer for myself (and perhaps you are wondering the same) is how does this help us understand Romans, chapter 2? I think i’m starting to see the answer, but it is as if the truth is a ship far away just appearing over the horizon. As it gets closer to the harbor, we shall see whether it’s cargo hold is filled with treasures of truth, or empty of promises.
 
As you might recall, you and others are helping me discern the true meaning of St. Paul’s words

God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

(Romans 2:6-7)
After some thoughtful discussion, it appears that we all agree that Paul is not discussing God judging people based on their actions alone. The truth is clear, as Jesus’ insightful story of two men praying illustrates, that the same action can be evil or good based on the motives of the perpetrator of that action. It is not what we do but why we do it that matters. I do not think we need to explore this any further.

I suppose the next question to ask is this: Will a person who “by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality” be one who is motivated by repentance, faith and love, or is she one who is motivated by rebellion, fear and loathing of others?
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
  • R1 - Repentance (or admitting one needs to change)
  • F1 - Faith (or trusting completely in God)
  • L1 - Love (for God and others)
    vs:
  • R2 - Rebellion (or self-righteous pride)
  • F2 - Fear (of the opinions of others or of giving up sin)
  • L2 - Loathing (or apathy or hatred of others and even God)
    In Jesus’ parable, then, the self-righteous man’s prayer was not seen as good in God’s eyes because his motives were R2, L2 and perhaps F2. In contrast the sinner’s prayer was seen as good in God’s eyes because his motives were R1, F1 and perhaps L1. In the example our Lord Jesus gives us, it is not what the men do but why they do it that determines whether their actions are virtue or vice. For both men did the same thing (i.e., they prayed) but one prayer was good and the other evil. It was their attitudes (or motives) not their actions that determined whether what they did was good.
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I have two comments. First, I’d say the Pharisee’s primary fault was pride. He believed he had attained perfection, but he was wrong. I don’t think that necessarily leads to “fear” and “loathing”, but it does make it hard (or impossible) to recognize one’s self to be the sinner one truly is.

The other comment is that the right motives can manifest wrong actions. What if a man, convicted of his sin, tried to right himself in God’s sight by his own deeds? That is, the man knows he is a sinner, but thinks that sin and good deeds are part of a balancing act. (This is a description many anti-Catholic people give to the Catholic practice of penance, especially when they talk about penances including “5 Hail Mary’s and 2 Our Fathers”. They think the Catholic Church has a big book they consult to figure out what has to be done for every sin.) If the man has the right motive (becoming right with God again) but goes about it wrong, what is the end result?
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.(Romans 2:6-7)
I suppose the next question to ask is this: Will a person who “by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality” be one who is motivated by repentance, faith and love, or is she one who is motivated by rebellion, fear and loathing of others?
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I’ve always found this particular saying of Paul’s a bit puzzling. The humble sinner, full of repentance, faith, and love, doesn’t seem to me to be the kind of person who does things to seek glory, honor, and immortality. And yet, that is just the man to whom God grants eternal life! So the “glory” and “honor” we Christians are seeking cannot be worldly, but must be heavenly. We seek glory, the glory (and glorification) of God. We seek honor, the honorific title of “Child of God”. The immortality we seek we know we shall only gain through death to this life.

Contrast that with the wicked man’s desire for glory, honor, and immortality. He seeks his own glory, so others will be envious of him. He seeks honor of men (cf. Matthew 23:6), both greater and lesser than himself, so that he will be held in high esteem by men. And the immortality he seeks is in this world, so that he might extend his own reign, and have control over those weaker than himself for as long as possible.
 
japhy said:
I have two comments. First, I’d say the Pharisee’s primary fault was pride. He believed he had attained perfection, but he was wrong. I don’t think that necessarily leads to “fear” and “loathing”, but it does make it hard (or impossible) to recognize one’s self to be the sinner one truly is.

The other comment is that the right motives can manifest wrong actions. What if a man, convicted of his sin, tried to right himself in God’s sight by his own deeds? That is, the man knows he is a sinner, but thinks that sin and good deeds are part of a balancing act. (This is a description many anti-Catholic people give to the Catholic practice of penance, especially when they talk about penances including “5 Hail Mary’s and 2 Our Fathers”. They think the Catholic Church has a big book they consult to figure out what has to be done for every sin.) If the man has the right motive (becoming right with God again) but goes about it wrong, what is the end result?
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You make two extremely insightful observations, japhy. 👍

Let me rephrase them in two questions i might then attempt to answer:
  1. Was not the Pharisee’s sin pride (not fear nor loathing)?
and2. What if a person does the wrong things for the right reasons; won’t God judge that?Let me address the first question first. By pride, i assume you mean self-righteousness. This, i think you will agree, is the same as R2 in the previous post, which is rebellion against God.

To say, “I’m too good to need forgiveness!” is a great sin, for St. John tells you and me

This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:5-9)Yes, i would agree that the Pharisee’s sin was pride in what he did, but i also believe that he was too proud to see how sinful he was. Refusing to admit one needs to be forgiven is, i believe, the sin of being unrepentant or rebellion against God.

Since he refused to repent, he could not have genuine faith, for repentance and faith, i believe we have all agreed, are like two sides of the same coin or two halves of the same face. You cannot have one without the other, and you cannot fail to have one without failing to halve the other. Since the self-righteous Pharisee failed to have repentance, he also failed to have faith.

That he did not love God seems evident from his lack of love for the man weeping in prayer.

The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ This is not compassion for the man weeping over his own sin but contempt for that man, and contempt is a form of hatred, i believe.
Jesus said:

"If you love me, you will obey what I command.

(John 14:15)

and"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

(John 13:34-35)
 
Regarding your second point, which i rephrased as this question
What if a person does the wrong things for the right reasons; won’t God judge that?
This i do not know, but what i do know is that these are not the circumstances of the people St. Paul is addressing, for he writes

You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.
(Romans 2:1)
What things are St. Paul talking about? They are those in the previous chapter:

Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
(Romans 1:28-32)
I do not think these sins are describing people doing the wrong things for the right reasons, because the right reasons, as we agree, are
  • Repentance
  • Faith
  • Love
The sins St. Paul lists do not appear to be motivated by repentance, faith and love. Do you think this is correct?
 
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