Has Eternal Life?

[Socrates4Jesus]

D’oh! Thanks for keeping me honest. If I’d remembered chapter 14 comes after chapter 13, where Judas leaves, perhaps I wouldn’t have made that silly mistake.

Peace.

Yeah, but i’m sure i forget where i left my keys more than you do, so that makes us even!

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

CM is absolutely correct. As Catholics we read Scripture with a contextual approach. Keeping each verse within the context of ALL Scripture. Most errors begin with taking Scripture out of its’ intended context. We could give thousands of incorrect interpretations which were the result of taking Scripture out of context. Given sufficient time I could “prove” any point of view using Scripture (out of context).

Yes, Tom, i completely agree.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Surely someone can deal with the pasaage directly. Yes, we all know you can’t take a verse in isolation. But Jesus words rank pretty high up on the list to not dance around. Please some Catholic, other than me , answer Socrates question directly, it is not un-Catholic to exegete a passage or verse. It is a copout to pretend that is a protestant thing. Jesus words seem pretty clear here. It is not a difficult passage. And one does not have to go down the dreaded OSAS trail (which is as much a conversation stopper as calling an opponent a Nazi - on this board).

Dave

Melchior:

I see you take after the wise man for whom you are named!

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

There are a couple problems with this post that I can see. One is, what are you using as your standard of what is “wise” or “unwise” in hermeneutics? Secondly, you claim that a parable is vague, or ambiguous. How did you come up with that? Especially in regard to THIS parable, which DOES come with an explanation from our Lord. I just cannot fathom how, given that Jesus went on to interpret for his bone headed disciples, you could say it is “unwise” to use for instruction, vague, or ambiguous. Thirdly, Jesus used parables for instruction. The truth found in them is of no less value than more direct comments he made. Separating them, and implying that the parables were not instruction is inappropriate.

Guano:

To which parable are you referring and how does the parable of which you speak make John 5:24 easier to understand?

“I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.”

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

…Do you STILL think that Jesus is teaching faith alone!

Guano, Guano, you are on edge about so many things! Only one thing is needed, to listen to what Jesus has to say to us on this, and to see what his followers think he was trying to say about this.

I’m not here to beat you over the head with the Bible and prove you wrong. What good does it do to win a debate and lose the truth? I’m looking for answers. I’m taking it slow and asking one specific question at a time. In this discussion thread i’m seeking the answer to only one question, which i will repeat for your benefit:

Do you believe eternal life can be a present possession while still in our current form of existence?
I just want to know how Jesus is answering this question in John 5:24:

“I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.”
I’m not looking for some kind of debate about whether Protestantism or Catholicism is true. If you want to put your boxing gloves on and duke that one out, please consider starting another discussion thread.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… So, did Peter have eternal life when he professed, by the grace of God, that Jesus was the Christ? How could Peter have professed that Jesus was Christ in the midst of the Apostles (either gaining eternal life, or as a sign he has eternal life) and denied Jesus in front of many witnesses (clearly an act for which he would be denied by Jesus)?

Japhy:

I appreciate your taking the time to look up all those passages, but none of them explained at what point in time we receive eternal life. Regarding St. Peter, at what point in time do you think he received this gift (before or after his physical death)?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

The famous verse, John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.”

The not-so-famous verse, John 3:36 “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son, will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.”

“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
(John 3:16)

“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.”
(John 3:36, NIV)

I’m glad to see you are searching for other passages that speak of the gift of eternal life. That might prove to help us understand what Jesus meant in John 5:24. Thank you, JW!

Tell me, please, how do you think either of these quotes of the Jesus we love explain at what point in time you or i receive eternal life (before or after we breath our last breath in this world)?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Hi Socrates,

Yes, I aspire to be a little rock.
…

That’s a good thing! And please, call me Soc (or S4J).

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

…Thank you for asking for clarification. I didn’t explain this very well.

…What I means is:

1. If you love and obey God - then you have “something”.
2. “Something” (if you have it) = eternal life

However, it isn’t the having of that “something” that is automatically eternal - it is that the nature of this “something” is eternal, if we have it. …

Yes, i think i see what you are saying. So, then, you believe that eternal life is not something we live now but something we begin living after death? That is, we have the gift waiting for us, like a child who has never taken Holy Communion has the Eucharist waiting for her? If she has been confirmed in the faith, then the Eucharist is hers, even though it is still in the had of the priest. She may be waiting in line with the other children to receive her first communion, but she has not received it, not yet; not until he places it in her hand and she puts it in her mouth.

Are you saying that we, in a similar way, have eternal life waiting for us, but it is not something we are living right now?

 

[petra]

Regarding St. Peter, at what point in time do you think he received this gift (before or after his physical death)?

We are infused with the life of God (eternal life) at the moment of justification, which of course is before physical death. This was no less true for Peter.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… St. John speaks much about the need for us to remain in Christ as a condition of our salvation. John 1:1-6: “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine grower. He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit, and everyone that does he prunes so that it bears more fruit. You are already pruned because of the word that I spoke to you. Remain in me, as I remain in you. Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned.” One cannot “remain” in Christ if one is not authentically in Christ” to begin with. Thus, there is the potential that authentic Christians may not remain in Christ and be separated from God. …

Yes, there is a Protestant pastor to whom i listen from time to time on the Web and radio by the name of Chuck Smith. He teaches the very same thing you do from this very same passage. I never quite saw how what he said could be true until i came here this week to speak to you, and to others.

 

[petra]

Yes, i think i see what you are saying. So, then, you believe that eternal life is not something we live now but something we begin living after death? That is, we have the gift waiting for us, like a child who has never taken Holy Communion has the Eucharist waiting for her? If she has been confirmed in the faith, then the Eucharist is hers, even though it is still in the had of the priest. She may be waiting in line with the other children to receive her first communion, but she has not received it, not yet; not until he places it in her hand and she puts it in her mouth.

Are you saying that we, in a similar way, have eternal life waiting for us, but it is not something we are living right now?

No, it is both. It is both something we have now and something we also hope for (given the possibility that we can subsequently forfeit the gift). St. John says that we can know (present tense) that we have eternal life. We also must endure to the end to remain in Christ. When we die, our destiny is fixed forever.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Socrates,

There is also another problem with the idea that salvation can never be lost. John writes, “I write these things to you so that you may know that you have eternal life, you who believe in the name of the Son of God” (1 John 5:13). This means that we can presently know that we are in a state of grace and in Christ. Ironically, the doctrine of “Eternal Security” cannot provide this assurance, and Catholic doctrine can. Let me explain with the following scenario:

Bill responds to an invitation to receive Christ. He goes forward during an altar call and prays the sinner’s prayer with the pastor. Afterward, the pastor shares 1 John 5:13 with Bill and tells him that he is saved for all eternity and he can know that because God tells us we can have that assurance. He warns Bill not to let doubts creep in and to stand firm in that assurance. So Bill feels assured and believes that he is saved for all eternity. Some years later, Bill drifted away from God. He eventually had an affair, started drinking more, and cheated a few people in business. There didn’t seem to be any indication that he was being convicted by the Holy Spirit. He still believed in God, but he loved his lifestyle and didn’t have any intention of turning from it. He rationalized his behavior with various excuses. He thought, “Well, no one is perfect, and I believe that God is a God of love.”

Many Protestants would say that such a person was never really saved. A real Christian could never do those things—or at least for very long without being tormented by conviction. So given that none of us know the future, how can anyone have assurance of eternal life? In the once-saved, always-saved paradigm, assurance can only be retrospective, looking back at one’s life at the moment of death. I don’t think that is what John intended when he said we can have assurance.

Catholic theology allows true assurance of salvation. Granted, because we do not know the future, we cannot presume to say definitively that we will persevere to the end and die in a state of grace. We pray for the grace to always follow Christ. However, we can have full assurance that we are PRESENTLY in a state of grace—that eternal life presently dwells in us. Catholics can KNOW they are saved right now.

Peace,
petra

That’s very well said, Rocky. Will you tell me, then, at what point in time do we start living the eternal life God gives to us (before we close our eyes for the last time in this life or when we open our eyes for the first time in the next?

What do you think Jesus meant?

19Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these. 21For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. 25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. 28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. 30By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
(John 5:19-30)

 

[petra]

Yes, there is a Protestant pastor to whom i listen from time to time on the Web and radio by the name of Chuck Smith. He teaches the very same thing you do from this very same passage. I never quite saw how what he said could be true until i came here this week to speak to you, and to others.

I’m familiar with Chuck Smith. He is a good man.

I’m glad we have been helpful to you! Thank you for all of your interesting questions.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Does anyone know the answer?

 

[petra]

That’s very well said, Rocky. Will you tell me, then, at what point in time do we start living the eternal life God gives to us (before we close our eyes for the last time in this life or when we open our eyes for the first time in the next?

What do you think Jesus meant?

19Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these. 21For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. 25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. 28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. 30By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
(John 5:19-30)

Hi Socrates,

As I said a minute ago, we receive eternal life upon the moment of justification (which is before we close our eyes for the last time in this life). There is a present dimension to eternal life, in addition to the future dimension.

But to clarify, the “eternal” refers to the quality of the life of God infused in us. It does not imply that our possession of it will be automatically eternal. That is conditional upon our enduring to the end (when we close our eyes for the last time).

Peace,
petra

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

No, it is both. It is both something we have now and something we also hope for (given the possibility that we can subsequently forfeit the gift). St. John says that we can know (present tense) that we have eternal life. We also must endure to the end to remain in Christ. When we die, our destiny is fixed forever.

Sorry, i missed this reply. If what you say is true, then i’m having difficulty understanding.

Lets say you, Rocky, have eternal life right now (and i hope you do)! Lets say you, a year from now, suffer a tragedy in your life where you blame God and you leave the church and become an evangelist of atheism (God forbid)! Lets say, which sounds improbable but not impossible, that you continue in this state, leading many away from Christ, committing one mortal sin after another, until you die and find yourself in hell. (It’s fiction, i know, please bear with me).

Given these circumstances, you will end up with eternal death (or eternal damnation) not eternal life. How, then, can the life you were living prior to leaving Jesus have been eternal? It could not, for it did not last, and eternal means forever.

No, i think the only alternatives that do not contradict Christ are:

(1) Eternal life does not begin until after death.

(2) Once a person receives eternal life, he begins living it in the present, and God makes some change in him so that he will never want to walk away.

Please correct me if i’m wrong and try to explain why.

 

[japhy]

Regarding St. Peter, at what point in time do you think he received this gift (before or after his physical death)?

When did he receive it? After death. When was he promised it? When he was in the grace of God.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… But to clarify, the “eternal” refers to the quality of the life of God infused in us. It does not imply that our possession of it will be automatically eternal. That is conditional upon our enduring to the end (when we close our eyes for the last time).

Peace,
petra

Sorry, we keep missing each other’s replies! From your previous reply, i understood you to believe that the word Jesus used also means never ending, forever, without end. Did i misunderstand you?

“I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.”

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

When did he receive it? After death. When was he promised it? When he was in the grace of God.

Yes, i can see how that can be true. So, i take it you, Japhy, disagree with Petra, who thinks (3) is true, and you think (1) is true?

(1) Eternal life does not begin until after death.

(2) Once a person receives eternal life, he begins living it in the present, and God makes some change in him so that he will never want to walk away.

(3) Eternal life begins at the moment we enter the state of God’s grace and continues after death, unless we fall out of God’s grace.