Has Eternal Life?

[japhy]

Moreover, a person “righteous before God” can turn away from righteousness:

Ezekiel 33:13,18
13"When I say to the righteous he will surely live, and he so trusts in his righteousness that he commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds will be remembered; but in that same iniquity of his which he has committed he will die.
18"When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, then he shall die in it.

Note, God does not say the “so-called righteous”, the “righteous in their own estimation”, nor the “externally reighteous.” God is talking about those who are righteous in His sight.

Only those who persevere to the end will be saved. Hence, Saint Paul himself says:

1 Corinthians 9:24-27
24Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
25Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

QFT (Quoted for truth)

In addition, in 1 Cor 6:8-11, Paul talks about brethren behaving in an unacceptable manner, and reminding them that they have been washed and sanctified from that old way of living: But you yourselves wrong and defraud, and that even your own brethren. Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Paul says that some of the brothers in Corinth are wronging and defrauding one another. Brothers in Christ behaving badly! It’s possible! Then he goes on to list some unrighteous groups of people, those who will not inherit the kingdom of God. He says that some of the Christians in Corinth were such, but that they were cleansed from that old life through baptism in Jesus Christ. Why would he be telling people who have already been washed … sanctified … [and] justified about sinful behavior that prevents one from entering the kingdom of God? Perhaps because they could relapse!

 

[mikeledes]

QFT (Quoted for truth)

In addition, in 1 Cor 6:8-11, Paul talks about brethren behaving in an unacceptable manner, and reminding them that they have been washed and sanctified from that old way of living: But you yourselves wrong and defraud, and that even your own brethren. Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Paul says that some of the brothers in Corinth are wronging and defrauding one another. Brothers in Christ behaving badly! It’s possible! Then he goes on to list some unrighteous groups of people, those who will not inherit the kingdom of God. He says that some of the Christians in Corinth were such, but that they were cleansed from that old life through baptism in Jesus Christ. Why would he be telling people who have already been washed … sanctified … [and] justified about sinful behavior that prevents one from entering the kingdom of God? Perhaps because they could relapse!

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

I would also like to add the following verse:

1 Timothy 3:6
6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil.

1 Timothy 3:6

**6and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil. **

Note that the cause of falling into the same judgement as the devil (eternal damnation) is becoming conceited. This would make no sense if the person was never saved to begin with.

God bless,
Michael

 

[guanophore]

Now, perhaps we should determine for certain if the evidence we have gathered thus far points to your suspect as the actual perpetrator of truth. I believe the conclusion you have in custody is this:

The good things God helps us say and do are the cause of God giving us eternal life. Do i have the correct suspect, or are you accusing a different conclusion of being guilty of the truth?

I think this cannot be right because some people can have eternal life who are not able to do and say good things, like a disabled or paralyzed person, handicapped (severely) and the thief who was crucified with Him.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Then what is loving God? Or, what is “love of God” or “love for God”? If obedience is its result (or manifestation), what is the love itself?

Good question, japhy!

I believe my good friend St. John has the answer:

Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

(1 John 4:8)

Michael, on the other hand, says the true definition of love is this:

And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments.

(2 John 2:6)

I say God Himself is love. Micahel says obeying God by doing and saying good things is love.

Who do you think is correct?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Good question, japhy!

I believe my good friend St. John has the answer:

Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.(1 John 4:8)
Michael, on the other hand, says the true definition of love is this:

And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments.(2 John 2:6)
I say God Himself is love. Micahel says obeying God by doing and saying good things is love.

Who do you think is correct?

Michael:

What do you think? After reading 1 John 4:8, do you still believe love is what you say and do?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I think this cannot be right because some people can have eternal life who are not able to do and say good things, like a disabled or paralyzed person, handicapped (severely) and the thief who was crucified with Him.

Yes, you make a good point, Guano. This hits home, as my grandmother, on her deathbed, could neither speak nor move. Yet, it was my hope she could still hear and think. I held her hand and whispered into her ear that she should not lose hope. I said that even if she were not to get better, she should ask God to forgive her, and i believed He would.

A person who is paralyzed, if she has conscious, coherent thought, can still repent of her sin, trust God, and even feel love for Him. It is my hope that this was enough to save the grandmother i loved who died that night.

However, before we can continue down this path in the discussion we should wait for Michael, or we will get too far ahead of him for him to catch up to us. We should stop where we are and discuss whether love is our motivation or our action. Once we all agree, we can move on, don’t you think?

 

[japhy]

Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. (1 John 4:8)

But that didn’t answer my question. I did not ask what love is, I asked what love of God or love for God is. I know God is love, and I also know (according to your analysis) that obedience of God is the result or manifestation of love of/for God. But what is love of/for God?

 

[mikeledes]

Michael:

What do you think? After reading 1 John 4:8, do you still believe love is what you say and do?

No. I believe love is what you feel, say,and do. The question that needs to be answered is not “what is love?” Rather, what does loving God mean ? Or, how does one love God?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

I will not be online for the weekend. But I will respond ASAP.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I hope this will not offend, but it seems the words of poets of the 60s describe this discussion thread. That is, the words of the Grateful Dead, “What a long strange trip it’s been” apply.

This discussion thread began with my question:

I’m wondering what your thoughts are on the meaning of these words of our Lord and Savior:

“I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.”**(John 5:24)

*and also these words:“If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.”(John 14:15-17)*I’m curious as to the Roman Catholic understanding of them. It’s an important question to me personally.

​

I learned that it is possible to see from these Scriptures that a person, once having been saved from hell, could then lose the gift of eternal life. That question being answered to my current satisfaction, i was content to leave this discussion for another.

However, Michael introduced a new topic of discussion. He asked me whether Romans, chapter two, teaches that the good things we do are a cause of receiving eternal life. forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2051829&postcount=172
The second half of this discussion thread has focused on answering that question, specifically, what the meaning of verse 7 is, which reads

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. Now, during the second half of this discussion thread, we appeared to have reached a consensus that there are three characteristics that mark a Christian’s Reason For Living (each beginning with the same letters as that phrase):

• Repentance
• Faith
• Love
  The opposite of this is the reason for living of an evil person, that being
• Rebellion
• Faithlessness
• Loathing
  There was a consensus among us that repentance and faith are decisions a Christian makes, and that these are like two sides of the same face in that a person cannot have one without the other. There was also a consensus that rebellion and faithlessness are the same, in that being like two sides of the same face, a person could not have one without the other. Furthermore, there appeared to be an agreement that repentance and faith and love were the causes of the good things we do; that is, the repentance, faith and love that we have in our thoughts are the motivations for our actions, which are the good things that we say and do. Repentance, faith and love are the causes of the effects, which are acts of repentance, acts of faith, and acts of love. We then came to an agreement regarding the sins described in Romans, chapter 1, were obviously those of persons whose reasons for living were rebellion, faithlessness and loathing.

We were about to come to a conclusion about the meaning of Romans 2:7, when Michael raised an objection, which i understand to be this:

Michael pointed out that St. John writesAnd this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love. (2 John 1:6)This is the definition of love, he said. Therefore, our premise that love is a decision one makes that causes her to do acts of love is incorrect. The acts of love we do are, in fact, what love is, not just what the effects of love are.

As i said, “What a long strange trip it’s been” but i believe it is one that will have a beautiful destination that is well worth it. It’s my sincere hope that this destination will reveal a truth i have not witnessed before, and perhaps the destination will end in the same wonderful rest for my two companions who have stayed with me on this journey. Thank you for doing so japhy and Micheal!

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

But that didn’t answer my question. I did not ask what love is, I asked what love of God or love for God is. I know God is love, and I also know (according to your analysis) that obedience of God is the result or manifestation of love of/for God. But what is love of/for God?

But you see, japhy, “What is love?” is exactly what i am asking. Michael says you and i have it wrong. Love is not just what we think, it’s also what we do, he tells us. Therefore, if he is correct, then our premise that love is merely a decision we make to please God and meet the needs of others is false. If this premise is false, then our other premises, that repentance and faith are merely decisions we make, are also false. Whether repentance, faith and love are only thoughts or are also words and deeds has a great deal to do with learning the true meaning of Romans, chapter 2.

I, therefore, want to hear what Michael has to say and consider whether it is true and you and i are in error, for, as you recall, you agreed with me that love was the cause of our actions and that a cause can never be the same as its effect.

 

[guanophore]

But you see, japhy, “What is love?” is exactly what i am asking. Michael says you and i have it wrong. Love is not just what we think, it’s also what we do, he tells us. Therefore, if he is correct, then our premise that love is merely a decision we make to please God and meet the needs of others is false. If this premise is false, then our other premises, that repentance and faith are merely decisions we make, are also false. Whether repentance, faith and love are only thoughts or are also words and deeds has a great deal to do with learning the true meaning of Romans, chapter 2.

I, therefore, want to hear what Michael has to say and consider whether it is true and you and i are in error, for, as you recall, you agreed with me that love was the cause of our actions and that a cause can never be the same as its effect.

Again I have to ask, Socrates, where is the heart and the passion in your formula? You have already conceded that love does not require action. I just read a testimony by a young quadraplegic who is unable to participate in any of the church works of service. She does pray, but her “action” is limited.

And what of the developmentally disabled or little child, whose mind is not yet fully developed. Is a child incapable of love because of limited reasoning capacity?

I offer this verse for meditation:

4 Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful; 5 it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8 Love never ends; 1 Cor 13:4-8

Does Socrates love? Let us put him to the test! Socrates is patient and kind. Socrates is not jealous or boastful. Socrates is not arrogant or rude. Socrates does not insist on his own way, he is not irritable or resentful. Socrates does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices int he tright. Socrates bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Socrates never ends (has eternal life).

How did you do?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

No. I believe love is what you feel, say,and do. The question that needs to be answered is not “what is love?” Rather, what does loving God mean ? Or, how does one love God?

God Bless,
Michael

Michael:

You caution japhy and i that love is not just what we think, but is also what we say and do. However, you have not explained how this can be true. Specifically, you have not explained how the reasoning from cause and effect, to which japhy and i found convincing, does not apply.

The line of reasoning went something like this:

1. 
   *]An example of cause and effect is a pin pushed into a balloon causing a loud noise as the balloon pops.
   *]It would be absurd to say that the pin pushing into the balloon (the cause) is the sound of the balloon popping (the effect). Thrusting a pin is obviously not the same as the sound wave that comes out of a popping balloon.
   *]There are many such examples, and in every one, the cause is never the same as the effect.
   *]Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that a cause never is the same thing as its effect.
   *]Now, the decision you and i make to love someone in an unselfish and giving way is a cause of our actions.
   *]The good things we say and do are the effect of the love we decide in our minds.
   *]And since a cause can never be the same as its effect, the good and loving things we say and do can never be love. (This is true because the loving things we say and do are the effects of the cause, which are our decisions to love.)
   *]Therefore, love is what we think (or perhaps what we are). The things we say and do are not love, but a demonstration of the love that is in our minds or souls. (In a similar way, the fruit on a tree is not the tree itself, but a demonstration of the kind of tree it is that produces the fruit.)
   Michael:
   
   If what you say is true, that love is what we think and also what we do, then please explain how the line of reasoning in the logical argument is false. That is, explain how one of the premises (#1 - #7) are untrue, or explain how the premises do not lead to conclusion (#8), so that the conclusion is not supported by the premises.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Again I have to ask, Socrates, where is the heart and the passion in your formula? You have already conceded that love does not require action. …

I have concluded no such thing. What a person makes up his mind to say or do he always says or does, unless prevented from doing so by someone or something else. Do you agree?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful; 5 it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8 Love never ends; 1 Cor 13:4-8
…

A most excellent passage you have quoted, Guano. “The love chapter” some Protestants affectionately call it. However, it does not help us answer the question, “What is love?” for what St. Paul is giving here are examples of love. What we are seeking is a definition of love.

Guano, i think you are a wise person. Search you heart and tell me, if you can, what one definition of love defines every example of love in the Bible?

 

[guanophore]

I have concluded no such thing. What a person makes up his mind to say or do he always says or does, unless prevented from doing so by someone or something else. Do you agree?

My point is that there are some people who cannot make up their minds (illness or disability or immaturity) and some that cannot say or do ( again frmo disability or ilness).

Yes, you make a good point, Guano. This hits home, as my grandmother, on her deathbed, could neither speak nor move. Yet, it was my hope she could still hear and think. I held her hand and whispered into her ear that she should not lose hope. I said that even if she were not to get better, she should ask God to forgive her, and i believed He would.

A person who is paralyzed, if she has conscious, coherent thought, can still repent of her sin, trust God, and even feel love for Him. It is my hope that this was enough to save the grandmother i loved who died that night.

 

[mikeledes]

Michael:

You caution japhy and i that love is not just what we think, but is also what we say and do. However, you have not explained how this can be true. Specifically, you have not explained how the reasoning from cause and effect, to which japhy and i found convincing, does not apply.

The line of reasoning went something like this:

1. 
   *]An example of cause and effect is a pin pushed into a balloon causing a loud noise as the balloon pops.
   *]It would be absurd to say that the pin pushing into the balloon (the cause) is the sound of the balloon popping (the effect). Thrusting a pin is obviously not the same as the sound wave that comes out of a popping balloon.
   *]There are many such examples, and in every one, the cause is never the same as the effect.
   *]Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that a cause never is the same thing as its effect.
   *]Now, the decision you and i make to love someone in an unselfish and giving way is a cause of our actions.
   *]The good things we say and do are the effect of the love we decide in our minds.
   *]And since a cause can never be the same as its effect, the good and loving things we say and do can never be love. (This is true because the loving things we say and do are the effects of the cause, which are our decisions to love.)
   *]Therefore, love is what we think (or perhaps what we are). The things we say and do are not love, but a demonstration of the love that is in our minds or souls. (In a similar way, the fruit on a tree is not the tree itself, but a demonstration of the kind of tree it is that produces the fruit.)
   Michael:
   
   If what you say is true, that love is what we think and also what we do, then please explain how the line of reasoning in the logical argument is false. That is, explain how one of the premises (#1 - #7) are untrue, or explain how the premises do not lead to conclusion (#8), so that the conclusion is not supported by the premises.

1. 
   Greetings Soc! Love is both noun and verb. A verb is a word of action. Again, the issue here is not, what is love? The issue here is , what does loving (i.e. verb) God mean? How does one love God? Is loving God merely a strong affection for Him that resides in a person’s heart or is it a strong affection, feeling for God that manifests itself - made visible - in our conduct.
   
   When Jesus gave us the new commandment, “love one another as I have loved you,” what did He mean? How do we obey this commandment? Did he simply mean, “have a strong affection in your heart for your fellow man” or did He mean more than that? If he meant more than that, then His use of the word love includes both feeling and action.
   
   I believe that love is too complex for a simple cause and effect construct.
   
   God Bless,
   Michael

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

My point is that there are some people who cannot make up their minds (illness or disability or immaturity) and some that cannot say or do ( again frmo disability or ilness).

Sorry, i do not understand how this applies to what we are discussing. Please elaborate.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Greetings Soc! Love is both noun and verb. A verb is a word of action. Again, the issue here is not, what is love? The issue here is , what does loving (i.e. verb) God mean? How does one love God? Is loving God merely a strong affection for Him that resides in a person’s heart or is it a strong affection, feeling for God that manifests itself - made visible - in our conduct.

When Jesus gave us the new commandment, “love one another as I have loved you,” what did He mean? How do we obey this commandment? Did he simply mean, “have a strong affection in your heart for your fellow man” or did He mean more than that? If he meant more than that, then His use of the word love includes both feeling and action.

I believe that love is too complex for a simple cause and effect construct.

God Bless,
Michael

Are you still affirming that love is both a cause and an effect? Or are you changing your mind and now think that love is not a cause, but merely an effect? Or are you now claiming that love is neither a cause nor an effect?

Please understand, Michael, that if you do not know what love is, then you cannot say that the definition of love held by japhy and myself is not the correct one. If you do not care to propose and defend a different definition, then we shall leave this rabbit trail and return to the path, which we hope will lead us to the truth of the second chapter of Romans.

If you have a truer definition of love, then we shall follow you down this rabbit trail to a better highway to heaven.