S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Guano:
Do you have a definition of love that we might consider, or would you care to consider the one held by japhy and myself?
- Status
Do you have a definition of love that we might consider, or would you care to consider the one held by japhy and myself?
B
BigRedpg51
Guest
Socrates4Jesus,
Salvation does not happen at one given point in time or another. As Catholics, we understand that our salvation is a life-long process. Of course we cannot “earn” salvation – as the Jehovah’s Witnesses are told – but by living as good and holy a life as we can, we hope that one day we will go to Heaven to be with Our Lord for all eternity.
Our salvation begins at the moment of our conception, and continues throughout our lifetime. “From the womb…to the tomb.”, so to speak.
Our Lord teaches us that all sins (sin could prevent us from entering Heaven) is forgiveable EXCEPT ‘blaspheming the Holy Spirit’. What does this mean? To ‘blaspheme the Holy Spirit’ means to reject the mercy of God. God will forgive us anything…if only we are truly sorry for having done the wrong. But, if we do not accept His mercy…if we reject His mercy – for whatever reason – He will respect our free will, and will not force it on us. That is why the expression “God damn you!” is totally a falsehood. God never wants to see anyone condemned to Hell – damned. People end up damning themselves by rejecting God’s forgiveness, His divine mercy.
A person could live an exemplary life…filled with kindness, love, generosity…but, if he/she should decide at the last moment of their life here on earth to not believe in the mercy or love of God – they could end up condemning themselves to hell. Is this likely? Not very. But, it is a real possibility.
On the flip side of the coin…a person who led a sinful life could – at the last moment – repent for what they’ve done and sincerely ask for the mercy of God…and they’ll get it! Remember Gesmas, the ‘good theif’ on the cross next to Jesus? It happened to him. It can happen to us, too.
Now, probably the more important issue to consider is…immediately after one dies, does he/she have the blinders taken off of their spiritual eyes and have everything made clear to them so that they can decide whether to believe in Jesus and His merciful love – or not? Surely God will not allow us to be condemned to Hell if we are ignorant of the salvation that He is holding out to us, would He? There is a period of “time” – the length of which is known probably only to God alone – in which He reveals everything to us (at death) in order so that we can make an ‘informed’ decision about Heaven or Hell…about whether to acknowledge the mercy and love extended to us by Jesus and the Father through the Holy Spirit…or to reject it.
All I can say is…Praise almighty God for His abiding mercy!
God bless you and help you in finding your answer!
Salvation does not happen at one given point in time or another. As Catholics, we understand that our salvation is a life-long process. Of course we cannot “earn” salvation – as the Jehovah’s Witnesses are told – but by living as good and holy a life as we can, we hope that one day we will go to Heaven to be with Our Lord for all eternity.
Our salvation begins at the moment of our conception, and continues throughout our lifetime. “From the womb…to the tomb.”, so to speak.
Our Lord teaches us that all sins (sin could prevent us from entering Heaven) is forgiveable EXCEPT ‘blaspheming the Holy Spirit’. What does this mean? To ‘blaspheme the Holy Spirit’ means to reject the mercy of God. God will forgive us anything…if only we are truly sorry for having done the wrong. But, if we do not accept His mercy…if we reject His mercy – for whatever reason – He will respect our free will, and will not force it on us. That is why the expression “God damn you!” is totally a falsehood. God never wants to see anyone condemned to Hell – damned. People end up damning themselves by rejecting God’s forgiveness, His divine mercy.
A person could live an exemplary life…filled with kindness, love, generosity…but, if he/she should decide at the last moment of their life here on earth to not believe in the mercy or love of God – they could end up condemning themselves to hell. Is this likely? Not very. But, it is a real possibility.
On the flip side of the coin…a person who led a sinful life could – at the last moment – repent for what they’ve done and sincerely ask for the mercy of God…and they’ll get it! Remember Gesmas, the ‘good theif’ on the cross next to Jesus? It happened to him. It can happen to us, too.
Now, probably the more important issue to consider is…immediately after one dies, does he/she have the blinders taken off of their spiritual eyes and have everything made clear to them so that they can decide whether to believe in Jesus and His merciful love – or not? Surely God will not allow us to be condemned to Hell if we are ignorant of the salvation that He is holding out to us, would He? There is a period of “time” – the length of which is known probably only to God alone – in which He reveals everything to us (at death) in order so that we can make an ‘informed’ decision about Heaven or Hell…about whether to acknowledge the mercy and love extended to us by Jesus and the Father through the Holy Spirit…or to reject it.
All I can say is…Praise almighty God for His abiding mercy!
God bless you and help you in finding your answer!
G
guanophore
Guest
How is "good and holy " defined, and how can one make sure one is “good and holy” enough to get into heaven?
Please explain how salvation begins at conception.
It seems even more unlikely to me that a fertilized egg could do anything…
Then is it not better to wait to convert until the last minute?
Is this what the bible says?
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
That’s a good thing to say, Big!…All I can say is Praise almighty God for His abiding mercy!
God bless you and help you in finding your answer!
I hope you will continue to contribute to this conversation.
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
What we are considering are the requirements to receive eternal life as they relate to Romans 2:7
To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.On our journey to the truth of the meaning of this passage, we have narrowed these requirements to at least two: repentance and faith (together being one) and perhaps also love.
There was an objection raised about the definition of love upon which we agreed, so we went down a rabbit trail off the side of our highway to heaven. The trail has ended in the briers of confusion. At this point, then, i think i shall attempt to use the machete of reason to cut through the confusion and bring us safely back to the Roman road. I will try by giving my best guess at the true definition of love.
The difficulty in getting our minds around this is the broad understanding of the word. One might say"I love pizza!"“I love my job.”“I love you, honey.”“I love you like a brother.”“Love your neighbor as yourself.”“Love your enemies.” so that clearly we mean different things depending on how we use the word. The question we are trying to answer is what did our good friend St. John mean when he used the word love? If we know what he meant, then we have our definition. We can say, with confidence, this is the kind of love that a Christian should have.
If Edwin had chosen to stay with us, i’m sure he would have told us that the Greeks had more than one word for love, each with a different definition. However, there are other sources upon which we might rely, such as this link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_words_for_love
Here we find four Greek words:
If anyone has any objections to this definition, or suggestions as to how it might be improved, or questions regarding this definition of love, please post a reply. If not, and if no one objects, i hope you will all return to the main path of our quest to find the truth about Romans, chapter 2.
To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.On our journey to the truth of the meaning of this passage, we have narrowed these requirements to at least two: repentance and faith (together being one) and perhaps also love.
There was an objection raised about the definition of love upon which we agreed, so we went down a rabbit trail off the side of our highway to heaven. The trail has ended in the briers of confusion. At this point, then, i think i shall attempt to use the machete of reason to cut through the confusion and bring us safely back to the Roman road. I will try by giving my best guess at the true definition of love.
The difficulty in getting our minds around this is the broad understanding of the word. One might say"I love pizza!"“I love my job.”“I love you, honey.”“I love you like a brother.”“Love your neighbor as yourself.”“Love your enemies.” so that clearly we mean different things depending on how we use the word. The question we are trying to answer is what did our good friend St. John mean when he used the word love? If we know what he meant, then we have our definition. We can say, with confidence, this is the kind of love that a Christian should have.
If Edwin had chosen to stay with us, i’m sure he would have told us that the Greeks had more than one word for love, each with a different definition. However, there are other sources upon which we might rely, such as this link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_words_for_love
Here we find four Greek words:
- Storge - an natural affection, like that felt by parents for offspring.
- Philia - meaning friendship, a dispassionate virtuous love that includes loyalty to friends, family, and community.
- Eros - which is a passionate love, with sensual desire and longing. It can mean romantic love, but does not have to be sexual in nature. It can be interpreted as a love for someone who you love more than the love of friendship.
- Agape - an unselfish, giving, self-sacrificing love like that which God has for us. It is a love that one has regardless of the relationship to the person, and which is for both one’s friends and enemies.
Agape, Edwin might have told us, is the Greek word used in St. John’s epistles and in St. Paul’s first letter to the church at Corinth. With this word as our guide, though i fear failing in the attempt, let me hazard a guess at a definition for the kind of love about which the Apostles wrote
If anyone has any objections to this definition, or suggestions as to how it might be improved, or questions regarding this definition of love, please post a reply. If not, and if no one objects, i hope you will all return to the main path of our quest to find the truth about Romans, chapter 2.
B
BigRedpg51
Guest
Dear guanophore,
A good and holy life can be lived simply by following the teachings of Jesus Christ. However, suppose that you only believe in Buddhism, or Islam or in the teachings of your local witchdoctor? Our Catholic Catechism teaches us that as long as you live your life according to what you believe is the correct way (and you have NOT investigated the Catholic Church and rejected it – but just believe what you’ve been taught), then you have every expectation of entering Heaven. God is not a ‘legalist – stick to the letter of the law!’ type of God. He is kind an merciful, and if He sees that we are doing our best with what we’ve been given…He will surely bless us with His mercy.
Our salvation begins at conception, because when we are conceived we inherit Original Sin, as a consequence of the sin of Adam and Eve - our first parents. We spend our entire lives trying to overcome the temptations to do wrong things against God’s holy Will. We are always trying to fight the influence of concupiscence, even if we’ve been Baptized and the Original Sin has been wiped away – for the consequences of the Original Sin remain (concupiscence).
When a baby dies in the womb – a fertilized egg, as you refer to it – will it automatically go to hell because he/she has not been Baptized? In truth, when that baby dies he/she receives the “Baptism of Blood”. What kind of God would conceive a child ("…and yes, God is still in charge of the conception process! We are only the instruments He uses to do it.") and send it to hell, not having given it a chance to choose His mercy? Not the God that I pray to, for sure.
In the ‘olden days’ Christians used to wait to be Baptized just before their death – realizing that the sacrament of Baptism carries with it an excorcism and a plenary indulgence. “So, I can live life…eat, drink, and be merry…and then I’ll catch up in the end!”, many of them thought. But, they were forgetting about a little acknowledged (but real) sin called…presumption. You cannot willingly commit a sin and expect that if you are Baptized or go to confession it will be forgiven…UNLESS…there is true contrition (not partial contrition). When you live your sins ‘presuming’ that God will forgive them…your soul and mind are not set up for contrition. You’re planning to “pull one over on God” – as if you could! Remember, God’s mercy is without limit – but He is also all-just.
guanophore, not everything Catholics believe is written down in the Bible. Our beliefs come from the Bible (the whole Bible, not the Protestant or Jehovah’s Witnesses version), from the Tradition that was handed down to us by the Apostles (that’s a ‘capital’ T), and the teachings from our Holy Father (the pope) and the cardinals, bishops, priests, and deacons in communion with him – for we believe in the infallibility of the pope in matters of faith and morals because he is directly inspired and guided by the Holy Spirit. You can either accept that or reject it – it’s up to you.
God bless you!
A good and holy life can be lived simply by following the teachings of Jesus Christ. However, suppose that you only believe in Buddhism, or Islam or in the teachings of your local witchdoctor? Our Catholic Catechism teaches us that as long as you live your life according to what you believe is the correct way (and you have NOT investigated the Catholic Church and rejected it – but just believe what you’ve been taught), then you have every expectation of entering Heaven. God is not a ‘legalist – stick to the letter of the law!’ type of God. He is kind an merciful, and if He sees that we are doing our best with what we’ve been given…He will surely bless us with His mercy.
Our salvation begins at conception, because when we are conceived we inherit Original Sin, as a consequence of the sin of Adam and Eve - our first parents. We spend our entire lives trying to overcome the temptations to do wrong things against God’s holy Will. We are always trying to fight the influence of concupiscence, even if we’ve been Baptized and the Original Sin has been wiped away – for the consequences of the Original Sin remain (concupiscence).
When a baby dies in the womb – a fertilized egg, as you refer to it – will it automatically go to hell because he/she has not been Baptized? In truth, when that baby dies he/she receives the “Baptism of Blood”. What kind of God would conceive a child ("…and yes, God is still in charge of the conception process! We are only the instruments He uses to do it.") and send it to hell, not having given it a chance to choose His mercy? Not the God that I pray to, for sure.
In the ‘olden days’ Christians used to wait to be Baptized just before their death – realizing that the sacrament of Baptism carries with it an excorcism and a plenary indulgence. “So, I can live life…eat, drink, and be merry…and then I’ll catch up in the end!”, many of them thought. But, they were forgetting about a little acknowledged (but real) sin called…presumption. You cannot willingly commit a sin and expect that if you are Baptized or go to confession it will be forgiven…UNLESS…there is true contrition (not partial contrition). When you live your sins ‘presuming’ that God will forgive them…your soul and mind are not set up for contrition. You’re planning to “pull one over on God” – as if you could! Remember, God’s mercy is without limit – but He is also all-just.
guanophore, not everything Catholics believe is written down in the Bible. Our beliefs come from the Bible (the whole Bible, not the Protestant or Jehovah’s Witnesses version), from the Tradition that was handed down to us by the Apostles (that’s a ‘capital’ T), and the teachings from our Holy Father (the pope) and the cardinals, bishops, priests, and deacons in communion with him – for we believe in the infallibility of the pope in matters of faith and morals because he is directly inspired and guided by the Holy Spirit. You can either accept that or reject it – it’s up to you.
God bless you!
G
guanophore
Guest
Are you saying I can be saved by doing right?
Well, then what do I need the Catholic church for?
I don’t know what kind of monastery or holy community you live in, but in my world, most people do NOT try AT ALL to live according to God’s holy will. They are NOT always trying to fight concupiscence by any manner of means whether at the moment of conception up to death.
It also sounds like sin is what starts at conception, not salvation.
I think this is kinda off topic here, so it might be better not to pursue it on this thread. But, for the record, I do not agree that salvation begins at conception, but I do agree that original sin does.guanophore, not everything Catholics believe is written down in the Bible. Our beliefs come from the Bible (the whole Bible Protestant or Jehovah’s Witnesses version), from the Tradition that was handed down to us by the Apostles (that’s a ‘capital’ T), and the teachings from our Holy Father (the pope) and the cardinals, bishops, priests, and deacons in communion with him – for we believe in the infallibility of the pope in matters of faith and morals because he is directly inspired and guided by the Holy Spirit. You can either accept that or reject it – it’s up to you. God bless you!
wages of sin = death
death = no eternal life
B
BigRedpg51
Guest
In answer to your questions, guanophore…
We are saved by Jesus Christ…Whose mercy is dispensed to those who try to live good lives filled with love for God above all things, and love for each other as ourselves (the Two Great Commandments).
You don’t “need” the Catholic Church…but it you can gain incomparable help from it in finding your way to Heaven. The Catholic Church offers you graces…sacramental graces…which are not available in almost all other Christian religious sects. The sacraments were instituted by God…but other Christian sects do not always practice them. The Catholic Church also offers you the true interpretation of Holy Scriptures, as has been handed down by Jesus Christ through His Apostles and their direct successors (the popes, bishops, priests, and deacons).
**By saying that “most people do NOT try AT ALL to live according to God’s holy will”…you are being judgemental. ** Do you know for sure what is in a person’s heart? Only God knows that. Sometimes even a person, themselves, cannot discern what is truly in their heart…in their intentions…because of the complexity of intermigled and conflicting thoughts that sometimes crop up. God alone has the right to say whether a person is trying to live according to His will, or not.
**If, as you say, sin starts at conception…then, salvation must start there too! ** We cannot enter Heaven with even the tiniest bit of sin on our souls. We must be absolutely immaculate and free from all sin – in order to come into the presence of the ‘Sinless One’ in Heaven. Therefore, even the Original Sin that we inherit at conception must be removed. Hence, our salvation begins at conception…and continues until it is completed when we enter Heaven.
If there are any more questions that you have, I’ll be glad to answer them. Until then…
God bless you!
We are saved by Jesus Christ…Whose mercy is dispensed to those who try to live good lives filled with love for God above all things, and love for each other as ourselves (the Two Great Commandments).
You don’t “need” the Catholic Church…but it you can gain incomparable help from it in finding your way to Heaven. The Catholic Church offers you graces…sacramental graces…which are not available in almost all other Christian religious sects. The sacraments were instituted by God…but other Christian sects do not always practice them. The Catholic Church also offers you the true interpretation of Holy Scriptures, as has been handed down by Jesus Christ through His Apostles and their direct successors (the popes, bishops, priests, and deacons).
**By saying that “most people do NOT try AT ALL to live according to God’s holy will”…you are being judgemental. ** Do you know for sure what is in a person’s heart? Only God knows that. Sometimes even a person, themselves, cannot discern what is truly in their heart…in their intentions…because of the complexity of intermigled and conflicting thoughts that sometimes crop up. God alone has the right to say whether a person is trying to live according to His will, or not.
**If, as you say, sin starts at conception…then, salvation must start there too! ** We cannot enter Heaven with even the tiniest bit of sin on our souls. We must be absolutely immaculate and free from all sin – in order to come into the presence of the ‘Sinless One’ in Heaven. Therefore, even the Original Sin that we inherit at conception must be removed. Hence, our salvation begins at conception…and continues until it is completed when we enter Heaven.
If there are any more questions that you have, I’ll be glad to answer them. Until then…
God bless you!
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Wonders if Michael and japhy want to continue the discusssion.
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J
japhy
Guest
Frankly, you’re not going to convince me of an interpretation of Romans 2 that conflicts with what Jesus said and what Paul and James and Peter wrote about persevering to the end, about having faith (but not love), about having faith (but not works), about subduing the body lest we become cast-away, about working out our salvation with fear and trembling.
It is clear to me that Christians can be sinners – wicked sinners, in fact – who:* live on the promise of forgiveness rather than the call to be holy
- accept forgiveness from God only to deny it to others
- who accept Jesus as Savior but not as Lord (I do it sometimes, and it tears me up inside, honestly)
M
mikeledes
Guest
.
I think we better move on with this discussion because I don’t think we will have agreement in this area. You are defining love as a noun. What is love? I am defining love as a verb. What does loving God mean? I believe that love encompasses good deeds. I believe love springs forth from the heart and is made visible in our actions. I see love as a continuous flow between feeling and action. Again, the question I’m answering is not “What is love”? Rather, “what does loving God mean?” How does one love God? But I think we better move on because I don’t see any progress. I never said what we do is love. What I said was that love includes, encompasses our actions.
God Bless,
Michael
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
I have no intention of doing any such thing, japhy. The advantage you have in speaking to me is that i am certain God Himself speaks to you and me and Michael through the words written by Paul, James and Peter. That’s half the battle, don’t you think? for when you or i try to discuss these matters with an atheist they often turn to a conversation about whether we can trust anything these saints wrote at all.
Another advantage you have in speaking to me is that i’m trying to convince myself as to what the truth is. I have not made up my mind, so i have ears to hear. I’m not trying to prove a point, i’m trying to understand what you believe and why you believe it and discern whether why you believe is compelling to me or not.
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Yes, i agree with that.
You appear to agree, then, thatRepentance in the mind always results in acts expressing that repentance through what you and i say and do. I would add that the things you and i say and do are not repentance, but only acts in keeping with repentance.
Likewise, faith in the mind always results in acts expressing that faith through what you and i say and do. I would add here, as well, that the things you and i say and do are not faith, but only acts in keeping with faith.
Moreover, as i mentioned previously, love in the mind always results in acts expressing that love through what you and i say and do. The things you and i say and do are not love, but only acts in keeping with love.
At this juncture, i have convinced myself of this truth. As i have said often, my goal is not to convince others but to convince myself. Whether i convince you or Michael is not my concern. I’m not into partisan politics or partisan religion.
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
Yes, i will agree to disagree with you, Michael. Keep in mind, however, that what i wrote in post # 331 is what i will use to help me understand the meaning of Romans, chapter 2. For i have not yet been given a compelling reason to believe otherwise.
If at any time in our conversation you see the need to discuss the three premises in post # 331, we can do so at that time. If this is OK with you, i agree that we should return to our original path through this forest. For although the trees of each thought are beautiful to behold, we must not lose sight of our destination, which is to know what St. Paul means by the words
To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
(Romans 2:7)
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
My sons gave me a t-shirt of which i am fond and wear often. On it are printed in large letters, “Easily Distracted”! 
These words certainly apply to me, even at this moment. For when i try to remember what you japhy and you Michael believe the meaning of St. Paul’s words to be in Romans, chapter 2, the memory of this escapes me. Please remind me, what do you believe the words
To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
(Romans 2:7)
actually mean?
These words certainly apply to me, even at this moment. For when i try to remember what you japhy and you Michael believe the meaning of St. Paul’s words to be in Romans, chapter 2, the memory of this escapes me. Please remind me, what do you believe the wordsTo those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
(Romans 2:7)
actually mean?
J
japhy
Guest
G
guanophore
Guest
You did not include the post this came from, so I am going from memory here.
Perhaps I am just flavored by my daily work with thugs and felons. It may be too much to say that “most people” don’t try to follow God. I also watched the news, which I have not done in weeks, and got very disgusted. I left the room with the TV running, and when I came back, it was one of those ridiculuous survivor shows. When one looks at the primetime listings of tv, one can see what sorts of entertainment are selling, and from that, make some inferences about what is tickling to the ears of the populace. This type of drivel is what sells. Soap operas sell. World wide wrestling sells. Why? Are they reflections of our society’s love for God?!
I have been working with the pro life folks, and am horrified that the legalists seem to think that the mother should be the one to decide when her conception is a “baby” (ie, if she wants to abort, it is “tissue” not person). To me, it seems like there is an awful lot of ignoring of God going on around me. I am judging the “fruit”, not the heart. If the fruit is bad, the tree is bad. Only God alone decides if one is living up to His expectations, but I can assure you that, when a person is breathing threats of murder, bad fruit exists.I agree that we cannot enter heaven with any spot, or blemish. However the RCC teaches that we are all conceived in sin. That sin is not washed away at the moment of conception, so it is impossible for salvation to begin at that time.
Sorry about ranting above, but being surrounded by godlessness sometimes just keeps it in one’s face.
M
mikeledes
Guest
So you have kids!My sons gave me a t-shirt of which i am fond and wear often. On it are printed in large letters, “Easily Distracted”!
To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
(Romans 2:7)
actually mean?
It’s always nice to know a litttle background info. Again, you have to understand eternal life is used in two senses in the Bible and in Catholic theology. Eternal life used in the present tense (i.e. “have eternal life.”) refers to our present participation in the life of God (i.e. santifying grace). Eternal life in its future tense is the consummation of this participation or, in other words, the actual inherting of the kingdom of God.Matthew 25:34, 46
**34"Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
46"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." **
Luke 18:30
**30who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life." **
Since the context of Romans 2 is judgement, then “eternal life” in its future sense is being used.
God Bless,
Michael
J
japhy
Guest
This is a good point. I return to my analysis of the parable of the prodigal son (Luke 15:11-32):
Eternal life is something we inherit after this life, and only under the conditions God has revealed to us through Scripture. We don’t possess it proper until we partake of it in the Kingdom, but I can say I “have eternal life” meaning I have the promise of inheritence.
M
mikeledes
Guest
I think this quote explains the Catholic understanding of eternal life as being both a present and future reality:
aimeemilburn.typepad.com/my_weblog/2006/07/the_life_of_gra.html
Here is another quote I’ve used before:
ignatiusinsight.com/features2007/stewart_security_jan07.asp
Eternal life begins in the here and now for the Christian as a participation in th life of God through grace. Its consummation is when we inherit the kingdom of God. God, however, has established conditions in order for this consummation to occur, as stated in Romans 2.
God Bless,
Michael
It’s from this website:
aimeemilburn.typepad.com/my_weblog/2006/07/the_life_of_gra.html
Here is another quote I’ve used before:
This is from:
ignatiusinsight.com/features2007/stewart_security_jan07.asp
Eternal life begins in the here and now for the Christian as a participation in th life of God through grace. Its consummation is when we inherit the kingdom of God. God, however, has established conditions in order for this consummation to occur, as stated in Romans 2.
God Bless,
Michael
- Status