Has Pope Benedict's reforms helped to contribute to Catholic Charismatic Renewal's slow demise?

[ericcantona71]

I just wondered what people’s thought were on why Charismatic Renewal groups are dying out across the world and why the ones that still exist are dominated by old people.

During the 70s-90s, and even at turn of the new century, Charismatic groups where blossoming numerically everywhere, with a notable number of young people. Nowadays young people and the Church as a whole seem more interested in Traditional aspects of the faith.

I wonder if this coincides with Traditional bent taken by the Holy Father and the more conservative liturgies that the Pope has introduced? Even at FUS, the university where Charismatic Renewal had such a strong hold seems to be getting more and more Traditional day by day.

Is the Charismatic Renewal really dying out?
What are people’s thoughts?
Has the Charismatic Renewal had its day?

 

[muffinmojo]

Hopefully it has and will continue to aid the decline of the Charismatic movement. While it may have helped preserve the orthodoxy of some people during the post-Vatican II era, it is high time that authentic Catholic identity was returned to Catholic worship.

 

[Pious_Mat]

Just a couple of thoughts:

First of all “charismatic” as an adjective is a good thing, and many good Catholic preachers have been “small C” charismatic–Fulton Sheen, JP2, even dear old Saint Paul. We need charismatic individuals, and there is no reason why one can’t be small C charismatic and traditional (attend EF Mass, etc.) at the same time.

A “large C” charismatic movement can be problematic. The Neo-catechumenate Way, for example, is considered such a group, and is rife with liturgical abuse, and in some instances, theological errors.

Moving from “large C” to small C is sign of maturing in the faith, and realizing that the message is far more important than the medium when preaching Christ.

As for Tradition, (large T) it is a source of faith equal to scripture, and it can’t be ignored. The Pope has a paradigm steeped in tradition that helps us rediscover many facets of our faith.

I want to reiterate that Charismatic people and preachers are important, but in my opinion, to have a movement that has it as primary charism is somewhat deficient, as is a charism based solely in tradition (note that this is coming from someone who is often viewed as a “traditionalist”, even though I don’t call myself that). Both are gifts from the Holy Spirit, and to choose one over the other means the movement won’t last long.

Hence I don’t think that charismatic catholicism is dying, merely quietly re-evaluting its place in the Church, and entering into a more mature faith.

Mat.

 

[Miles_Mariae]

Charisma is great - seminarians should be given access to world-class public speaking classes. The “movement” on the other hand… I have no access to statistics but if what you are saying is true, there’s another reason for me to admire our Holy Father. As if I needed another

 

[holdencaulfield]

Is the Charismatic Renewal really dying out?
What are people’s thoughts?
Has the Charismatic Renewal had its day?

We can only pray that it will die out.

 

[angelusm]

Hopefully it has and will continue to aid the decline of the Charismatic movement. While it may have helped preserve the orthodoxy of some people during the post-Vatican II era, it is high time that authentic Catholic identity was returned to Catholic worship.

How can you say things like that? Charismatic movement means: gift of tongues, gift of prophesying, gift of healing, also raising from the dead, etc. Basically it means openness to the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Don’t forget that all those gifts were present in the New Testament, and it was before VII What is wrong in using gifts that Holy Spirit wants to give us for our good? If you read the Acts and letters carefully you will see that it’s God’s will for us to prophesy, to use the gift of tongues and to heal. Jesus said: you will do not only what I am doing but also greater things. And it happens in the Charismatic renewal. People need to see the power of God in the Catholic Church! Otherwise many will join protestant denominations. Is that what you want???

 

[holdencaulfield]

How can you say things like that? Charismatic movement means: gift of tongues, gift of prophesying, gift of healing, also raising from the dead, etc. Basically it means openness to the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Don’t forget that all those gifts were present in the New Testament, and it was before VII What is wrong in using gifts that Holy Spirit wants to give us for our good? If you read the Acts and letters carefully you will see that it’s God’s will for us to prophesy, to use the gift of tongues and to heal. Jesus said: you will do not only what I am doing but also greater things. And it happens in the Charismatic renewal. People need to see the power of God in the Catholic Church! Otherwise many will join protestant denominations. Is that what you want???

I think that we are getting mixed up over the definition of “charismatic”

 

[palmas85]

How can you say things like that? Charismatic movement means: gift of tongues, gift of prophesying, gift of healing, also raising from the dead, etc. Basically it means openness to the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Don’t forget that all those gifts were present in the New Testament, and it was before VII What is wrong in using gifts that Holy Spirit wants to give us for our good? If you read the Acts and letters carefully you will see that it’s God’s will for us to prophesy, to use the gift of tongues and to heal. Jesus said: you will do not only what I am doing but also greater things. And it happens in the Charismatic renewal. **People need to see the power of God in the Catholic Church! Otherwise many will join protestant denominations. Is that what you want???/**QUOTE]

Just an observation. Any Catholic who would abandon the Church to join a protestant group has a serious problem. Perhaps the Protetsants can be excused if they know no better. But a baptized Catholic should know that in doing such a thing he or she would be abandoning the true Church.

And if you abandon the true Church knowingly, I think that you will find yourself in a sad sad situation.

As far as the Charismatic renewal it was and still is in my opinion a fad. Interesting to some while it lasted, but nothing more than a fad. The Catholic Church survived before the movement and the Catholic Church will still be here long after the movement dies out and goes away.

It may have helped some to regain the faith, just as the charismatic movement among the protestants did with them in the early 1900’s. I will grant that possibility does exist. But the facts speak for themselves and the movement is now not what it was thirty years ago despite what the supporters will tell you.

And that is a good thing:thumbsup:

There is way too much potential for abuse in charismatic circles.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I just wondered what people’s thought were on why Charismatic Renewal groups are dying out across the world and why the ones that still exist are dominated by old people.

During the 70s-90s, and even at turn of the new century, Charismatic groups where blossoming numerically everywhere, with a notable number of young people. Nowadays young people and the Church as a whole seem more interested in Traditional aspects of the faith.

I wonder if this coincides with Traditional bent taken by the Holy Father and the more conservative liturgies that the Pope has introduced? Even at FUS, the university where Charismatic Renewal had such a strong hold seems to be getting more and more Traditional day by day.

I think it is more to do with the generation than anything. The up and coming generation are seeing first hand the disaster caused by the previous generations. Also I believe God’s Providence is strongly behind this traditionalist minded revival and repudiation of the “no limits” mindset. The Church is just now coming out of a big storm and it will emerge stronger than ever.

Is the Charismatic Renewal really dying out?

Yes. That generation is dying out, the problem is it is not dying off fast enough.

What are people’s thoughts?

There is a new sheriff in town for one, and the Motu Proprio was the most important document issued in quite a while. Pope Benedict is slowly doing all he can to steer the ship back on course.

Has the Charismatic Renewal had its day?

Yes the liberalist charismatic renewal it breathing its last breaths.

 

[rwoehmke]

After Vatican II and not because of Vatican II, many Catholics lost their moorings and started losing their hold on what it meant to be a Catholic Christian, some Catholics even fading to the point of emphasizing Christian over and against Catholic. Cursillo, the Charismatic Movement, Marriage Encounter, 24/7 Adoration and the like renewed and strengthened the faith of many Catholics. I participated in some of these movements and would witness to the fact that they saved many Catholics for the Church and set them on fire for Jesus and their Faith.

I would not say that some cells in these movements didn’t seriously go off the track, but I don’t believe that was true for the vast majority of those who participated. It is my experience in my neck of the woods that most of the local Catholics now active in teaching the Faith, Bible study, mission work, service to the parish, pro-life work, and financially supportive of the Church were re-evangelized in one or more of these movements. The others by and large get their tickets punched on Sunday morning, if at all, and become invisible in the secular world till next Sunday.

If these movements are disappearing, it is not because of a return to tradition, but because they are often the ones who are now returning tradition to parishes where it had become moribund. By tradition I am not defining that narrowly as once again celebrating the TLM. .

 

[paramedicgirl]

Just a thought - but maybe it’s the Holy Spirit at work here?

 

[angelusm]

angelusm;3508431:

How can you say things like that? Charismatic movement means: gift of tongues, gift of prophesying, gift of healing, also raising from the dead, etc. Basically it means openness to the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Don’t forget that all those gifts were present in the New Testament, and it was before VII What is wrong in using gifts that Holy Spirit wants to give us for our good? If you read the Acts and letters carefully you will see that it’s God’s will for us to prophesy, to use the gift of tongues and to heal. Jesus said: you will do not only what I am doing but also greater things. And it happens in the Charismatic renewal. People need to see the power of God in the Catholic Church! Otherwise many will join protestant denominations. Is that what you want???/

QUOTE]

Just an observation. Any Catholic who would abandon the Church to join a protestant group has a serious problem. Perhaps the Protetsants can be excused if they know no better. But a baptized Catholic should know that in doing such a thing he or she would be abandoning the true Church.

And if you abandon the true Church knowingly, I think that you will find yourself in a sad sad situation.

As far as the Charismatic renewal it was and still is in my opinion a fad. Interesting to some while it lasted, but nothing more than a fad. The Catholic Church survived before the movement and the Catholic Church will still be here long after the movement dies out and goes away.

It may have helped some to regain the faith, just as the charismatic movement among the protestants did with them in the early 1900’s. I will grant that possibility does exist. But the facts speak for themselves and the movement is now not what it was thirty years ago despite what the supporters will tell you.

And that is a good thing:thumbsup:

There is way too much potential for abuse in charismatic circles.
Obviously abandoning the CC is a serious problem and I’m not questioning it at all.

Unfortunatelly you were interested only in the last part of my post. What do you think about the rest of it?

 

[palmas85]

palmas85;3510444:

Obviously abandoning the CC is a serious problem and I’m not questioning it at all.

Unfortunatelly you were interested only in the last part of my post. What do you think about the rest of it?

I believe that in the early days of the Church the various charisms were manifested in order to solidify the faith and enable the members, all of whom were converts from some other faith or another to recognize that Christ was indeed the messiah. Once that concept was understood and accepted, the need for these charisms vanished. The notable exception was healing, which I think is and always has been a gift that God bestows upon who He feels is worthy, regardless of anything else.

You will note that they did not return except in rare genuine cases and in many fraudulent ones, ie:Montanus and his group, until fundamentalist Protestant groups manifested them in the late 1800’s to early 1900’s, in what I believe was an attempt to show the theological liberals who were taking over the protestant seminaries and communities in those days that they, the liberals were wrong in the way they approached worship. A backllash as it were against liberalism.

There was no such movement in the Catholic Church until after the Second Vatican Council and then the practice was introduced not from within the Church, but from protestants, who by and large were and still are vehemently opposed to the Catholic faith and everything in it.

So yes, I agree that the Holy Spirit can and does bestow these gifts on whoever he chooses and in whatever manner he chooses However, . I do not believe that He bestowed them on the Protestants and I don’t believe that He used the Protestants to re-introduce them to us. I find it hard to believe that a validly ordained Catholic Priest would have the need to request baptism of the Holy Spirt from a protestant minister, which is exactly how the whole thing started.

I’m not saying it’s impossible, but I highly doubt it.

Add that to the fact that many of the manifestation in the Charismatic renewal seem dubious at best. For instance, many claim to be able to speak in tongues at will, whenever they want to, and in effect have a special unique path to God. I find that troubling. Also, being slain in the spirit. I’m not sure of the frequency of this happening, but I know it happens, Where does it come from? I don’t recall anything like that in Scripture, yet, it happens.

Baptism of the Holy Spirit. As far as I know the Baptism we receive from the Church is and always has been sufficient.Nothing else is needed.

Prophecy an interesting word. As I understand it the word prophecy in this sense actually means to preach as opposed to foretelling of events and having read some of the prophetic statements that are made at some of these gatherings, they really don’t seem to be much in the way of preaching. Of course, maybe the ones interpreting misunderstood. Always a possibility I guess…

Healing, definitely the one that I agree to be valid… Its been done however since the beginning of the Church and had no need for and still has has no need of the Charismatic movement to bring it out. Thousands have been healed at Lourdes, France for instance with absolutely no charismatic involvement at all. And Lourdes is far from the only place.

So I think the evidence that the Charismatic Movement is in fact inspired by the Holy Spirit is minimal at best. I know the people involved get that good endorphin rush and feel good. Heck they probably feel great, but feeling good is not and never has been the litmus test for the truthfulness of completeness of any faith.

As I said, it may all very well be true and I may be among the invincibly ignorant so to speak and in for one heck of a rude awakening one day down the road… There used to be a poster here who told me that I was uncircumsized of heart and ears because I would not accept the works and blessings of the Holy Spirit.

I accept the Holy Spirit and bow down before HIm. But I honestly don’t believe that the Holy Spirit has anything whatsoever to do with the Charismatic Renewal.

 

[rwoehmke]

I have no doubt that a lot of the gifts the Charismatics speak of are still given out to those people of faith in the Catholic Church. You don’t have to be a Charismatic or be Baptized in the Holy Spirit to be so gifted. Now when it comes to the more esoteric gifts mentioned by Paul, such as praying, speaking prophecy, and interpreting tongues it becomes a lot more nebulous. Healing, teaching, discernment, etc. are gifts found all over in our Church.

As for the emotional high that some experience, I still fail to understand why many of us believe that only intellect on the one hand or emotion on the other are the full measure of truth in the Faith. Its like trying to perform a job with one arm when we, most of us, have two. It is again another case of either/or as opposed to both/and.

As to the Charismatic movement having it’s source in Catholics being Baptized in the Spirit by protestants, that is not the whole story. There are also well documented instances of the so-called Baptism of the Holy Spirit that have occurred, for example to a retreat group of young Catholics at Duquesne University; students who knew zip about any Charismatic movement at the time. It is important to note that the so called Baptism of the Holy Spirit is not a Baptism at all, but more like an experience of ecstacy similar to that described by some saints. My personal opinion is that when it happens, it happens for the first time in a lot of peoples lives when they begin to get on, an emotional level, an experience of the love that God has for them.

I have seen people “Slain or resting in the Spirit,” some of them when I was praying for them; some at other times when someone else was praying for them. I have also seen instances where the praying person actually pushed on the forehead of the person being prayed for, but I and others had not even touched the individuals in most of my experiences. I have never been slain in the spirit myself and am at a total loss as to why or how it happens, but it does happen.

 

[sphilomena]

I have resisted commenting on the Charismatic Renewal many times, but I can identify with comments made by rwoehmke. It’s hard to put my experience in a nutshell but… I grew up before VII, was married and had babies by the time the changes in the Mass began. My faith was always important to me, even in a real Catholic college where I tried to attend Mass every day.

I experienced the C. Renewal over 20 yrs. ago, participated in leadership, etc. After a deeply spiritual re-consecration to BVM, I began to see the problems in the renewal and drifted away. I was led to begin a couple of Marian groups. The combination of the Holy Spirit working with His Spouse (Mother Mary) is unbeatable for real spiritual vision! I have retained what was good: a deeper spiritual life and prayer life, discernment etc., but I saw the renewal in some ways becoming protestant. It has “come around” in some places where Mother Mary is part of it, in other places has died out. I would love nothing more than to attend the TLM every day! I have come full circle, but, as I said, have retained what was good from the renewal.

In the renewal, the focus must be on the Giver and not the gifts. There’s a whole list of problems, but there is good also. In the depths of myself I am totally traditional, but also recognize the place of the Holy Spirit in my life.

Don’t usually like to be so wordy!

 

[palmas85]

I have no doubt that a lot of the gifts the Charismatics speak of are still given out to those people of faith in the Catholic Church. You don’t have to be a Charismatic or be Baptized in the Holy Spirit to be so gifted. Now when it comes to the more esoteric gifts mentioned by Paul, such as praying, speaking prophecy, and interpreting tongues it becomes a lot more nebulous. Healing, teaching, discernment, etc. are gifts found all over in our Church.

As for the emotional high that some experience, I still fail to understand why many of us believe that only intellect on the one hand or emotion on the other are the full measure of truth in the Faith. Its like trying to perform a job with one arm when we, most of us, have two. It is again another case of either/or as opposed to both/and.

As to the Charismatic movement having it’s source in Catholics being Baptized in the Spirit by protestants, that is not the whole story. There are also well documented instances of the so-called Baptism of the Holy Spirit that have occurred, for example to a retreat group of young Catholics at Duquesne University; students who knew zip about any Charismatic movement at the time. It is important to note that the so called Baptism of the Holy Spirit is not a Baptism at all, but more like an experience of ecstacy similar to that described by some saints. My personal opinion is that when it happens, it happens for the first time in a lot of peoples lives when they begin to get on, an emotional level, an experience of the love that God has for them.

I have seen people “Slain or resting in the Spirit,” some of them when I was praying for them; some at other times when someone else was praying for them. I have also seen instances where the praying person actually pushed on the forehead of the person being prayed for, but I and others had not even touched the individuals in most of my experiences. I have never been slain in the spirit myself and am at a total loss as to why or how it happens, but it does happen.

I suggest you read the history of the movement my friend. The retreat that you are alluding to is the one where the Catholic Charismatic Renewal actually began. Far from how you pictured it as just happening it was quite the opposite. In fact it was well planned.

The “Duquesne Weekend” happened in February 1967,when about 25 students from Duquesne University in Pittsburgh gathered for a spiritual retreat with two professors who had already been baptized under the direction of Presbyterian charismatics. Many of the students were baptized in the Holy Spirit and received gifts of one sort or another, marking the first event in which a group of Catholics experienced Pentecostal spirituality. Not all students that attended were so graced however.

Maybe the students knew zip as you put it, buttheir professors including at least one priest certainly knew about it.

 

[rien]

Well the Catholic church is stagnant according to recent vatican numbers. For whatever reason it is not transforming people. Like says Hispanic males. We’ve all heard stories of how catholic Hispanic males who did not attned church and were wordly embraced pentecostalism and are transformed as individuals and as they relate to others.

pentecostalism is growing rapidly and will be the face of Chrittianity before the end of the century. As in protestant Pentecostals will outnumber Roman Catholics.

If this means Catholicsm becomes lefty political correct or righty it has to be gregorian chant and no other music is Chritian.

What do you think. The Pew study confirmed that cradle born catholics are abdoning their faith in droves. Not being fed.

Presumably the lesser influence of charismatic Cathoplics means traditionalists come to the fore? Look at the FSSP parishes. Not winning too many converts. Not really evangelizing.

If traditionalism means returning to a small ghetto where only one form of musi or prayer or religiousity is allowed the church will continue its rapid decline. IMO.

 

[rwoehmke]

I suggest you read the history of the movement my friend. The retreat that you are alluding to is the one where the Catholic Charismatic Renewal actually began. Far from how you pictured it as just happening it was quite the opposite. In fact it was well planned.

The “Duquesne Weekend” happened in February 1967,when about 25 students from Duquesne University in Pittsburgh gathered for a spiritual retreat with two professors who had already been baptized under the direction of Presbyterian charismatics. Many of the students were baptized in the Holy Spirit and received gifts of one sort or another, marking the first event in which a group of Catholics experienced Pentecostal spirituality. Not all students that attended were so graced however.

Maybe the students knew zip as you put it, buttheir professors including at least one priest certainly knew about it.

I stand corrected. I got my info from one of those students some years ago. What ever its source, John Paul II had no problems with the Catholic movement and like several other movements I cited above it has indeed contributed to some positive renewal of the Catholic Faith certain individuals and some groups going off-track not withstanding.

 

[palmas85]

I stand corrected. I got my info from one of those students some years ago. What ever its source, John Paul II had no problems with the Catholic movement and like several other movements I cited above it has indeed contributed to some positive renewal of the Catholic Faith certain individuals and some groups going off-track not withstanding.

John Paul II alas had no problems with many things. He wanted so desperately to bring all the worlds faiths under one banner that he made some positively horrendous choices and decisions. He meant well. He was a holy man and he was my Pope. I loved him and I followed him, but make no mistake about it, he did a lot of damage to the faith by bending in to just about everything. I mean sitting down with Voodoo Priests and attending their ceremonies, kissing a Koran, removing the crucifixes from Vatican walls so that visiting Jews wouldn’t feel offended, saying that** ALL** prayers no matter to whom they are directed go to God

No he did some incredible damage to the faith.

Now he did a lot of good. He almost singlehandedly restored Marian devotion to the Church, The Virgin to put it bluntly took a real beating after Vatican II. many people seemed to feel that devotion to her was old fashioned and un scriptural. you know protestants can’t be bothered with anything non scriptural so in the interest of ecumenism, She had to go. Heck I once heard the Rosary described as “an old time catholic tradition not much practiced anymore.” John Paul II rescued her. and devotion to her. He gave us the indult which threw many top Vatican people into a tailspin. all that hard work, good ecumenical work getting thrown into the dump just to mollify some old fuddy duddies who would die out soon anyway. He was hated and reviled by many of his closest advisors. He faced down the Jesuits who were really out of control and tried hard very hard to do what he thought was right.

But he wasn’t perfect and just because he said something was good doesn’t necessarily mean that it was. Please don’t do as many have done and fall into the cult of Papal worship.

And remember also, he never spoke infallibly about anything.

 

[angelusm]

angelusm;3513524:

There was no such movement in the Catholic Church until after the Second Vatican Council and then the practice was introduced not from within the Church, but from protestants, who by and large were and still are vehemently opposed to the Catholic faith and everything in it.

So yes, I agree that the Holy Spirit can and does bestow these gifts on whoever he chooses and in whatever manner he chooses However, . I do not believe that He bestowed them on the Protestants and I don’t believe that He used the Protestants to re-introduce them to us. I find it hard to believe that a validly ordained Catholic Priest would have the need to request baptism of the Holy Spirt from a protestant minister, which is exactly how the whole thing started.

I’m not saying it’s impossible, but I highly doubt it.

Add that to the fact that many of the manifestation in the Charismatic renewal seem dubious at best. For instance, many claim to be able to speak in tongues at will, whenever they want to, and in effect have a special unique path to God. I find that troubling. Also, being slain in the spirit. I’m not sure of the frequency of this happening, but I know it happens, Where does it come from? I don’t recall anything like that in Scripture, yet, it happens.

Baptism of the Holy Spirit. As far as I know the Baptism we receive from the Church is and always has been sufficient.Nothing else is needed.

Prophecy an interesting word. As I understand it the word prophecy in this sense actually means to preach as opposed to foretelling of events and having read some of the prophetic statements that are made at some of these gatherings, they really don’t seem to be much in the way of preaching. Of course, maybe the ones interpreting misunderstood. Always a possibility I guess…

Healing, definitely the one that I agree to be valid… Its been done however since the beginning of the Church and had no need for and still has has no need of the Charismatic movement to bring it out. Thousands have been healed at Lourdes, France for instance with absolutely no charismatic involvement at all. And Lourdes is far from the only place.

So I think the evidence that the Charismatic Movement is in fact inspired by the Holy Spirit is minimal at best. I know the people involved get that good endorphin rush and feel good. Heck they probably feel great, but feeling good is not and never has been the litmus test for the truthfulness of completeness of any faith.

As I said, it may all very well be true and I may be among the invincibly ignorant so to speak and in for one heck of a rude awakening one day down the road… There used to be a poster here who told me that I was uncircumsized of heart and ears because I would not accept the works and blessings of the Holy Spirit.

I accept the Holy Spirit and bow down before HIm. But I honestly don’t believe that the Holy Spirit has anything whatsoever to do with the Charismatic Renewal.

I don’t know why charismatic renewal began among protestants first. I don’t like this fact but that’s how it was. Holy Spirit always comes when we ask him to come, also when protestants do it. Let me explain something - I reject protestantism but I don’t reject the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Baptism in the Holy Spirit is not a sacrament. It’s aim is to make “active” gifts that already are in us and to change our lives.
I’m surprised you are not convinced about the gift of tongues. Mary, apostles and other disciples received it during the Pentecost. Also Paul in his letters mentions the gift of tongues a few times, and he thanks he speaks tongues more than others.
Prophecy is for encouraging and comforting. Holy Spirit reveals either future events or facts that are known only to him. That’s a long story, I recommend you finding a book about prophecy, there’s so much to say about it.
Obviously there were many healings in the CC before charismatic renewal. But because of the CR there are much more of them, even thousands in one place at a time (Africa), have a look here:
coretlumenchristi.org/Site_stream/videos.htm

CR was accepted by popes since Paul VI, I don’t think they might be wrong to support it.
Those gifts are for us and for our good and we should not neglect them. If you are not sure about something - find out what it is instead of rejecting it. I think it’s sometimes difficult for Catholics to receive something from protestants… It’s our pride Anyway, forget about protestants, just look at the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
God bless.