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palmas85
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Maybe. Maybe not.
Has Pope Benedict's reforms helped to contribute to Catholic Charismatic Renewal's slow demise?
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otjm
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otjm;3537835:
the one true Church and it has the FULLNESS of truth and of the faith,
The protestant communities are not true churches, in fact they are not churches at all, they do not have the fullness of faith and are extremely poor imitations of what the Catholic Church is.
Now you either believe that to be true or you don’t. There is really no middle road. Now I’m pretty sure that the Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ and the Father are aware of this. I don’t think it is something that Catholics made up over the years to justify their existence. If they did then we are in a really sad situation.
So being that the Catholic Church is the one true Church and the other groups really poor imitations, why would the Holy Spirit use them to reach out to us? It is completely illogical and makes no sense whatsoever. I never said He was incapable, I said I don’t think He would do it.
Hey I’m open, if you can give me one good rational explanation why the Holy Spirit would use those who reject a good portion of the truth in their worship to reach out to the true Church, then I’ll consider the possibility that he manifestation that the charismatics have may have some basis in fact.
Otherwise, they will remain exactly what they have been since the days of Montanus. Attention getting gimmicks designed to show that the users of these alleged gifts have the answers and the truth and the rest of us don’t.
My opinion.
Yes, it is your opinion. It is not, however, indicative of the opinion of the Church - “The Catholic Church** IS** the one true Church and it has the FULLNESS of truth and of the faith,” as you state.
And I will ask again, since you didn’t answer the question: is this your personal opinion based on your own experience of the Charismatic movement directly, or just what others have told you?
Your comment about nothing good coming of this is one of the more egregious bits I have heard in a while. It would appear that you know of almost no one who has been involved in the Charismatic movement; and I will start with the priest who gives retreats to the Pope.
And as to the issue of the logic of the Holy Spirit using Protestants, I don’t recall that anywhere in the teachings of the Church it is said that the Holy Spirit is restricted to acting through the church - or for that matter, prior to Christ, the Jews. In fact, Scripture - the Old and the New Testament both show otherwise.
Nothing at all in the Charismatic movement looks like it came from the Holy Spirit? You obviously have seen nothing. Had you bothered to actually look into it, beyond reading whatever you seem to have read that has trashed it, you would find increased faith; deepening knowledge of scripture, and emphasis on devotion to Mary, and a willingness to witness to the Gospel.
But of course, those are not Cathiolic things, are they. “By their fruits you shall know them”. When the fruits are increased faith and devotion, I fail to see why there is this impression you have that it is from the devil.
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cothrige
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Please forgive me for intruding here, but while I cannot comment on the above persons supports, I would like to say something about my own experience. Here in the town I live in the Charismatic movement has had a very strong presence. Every Mass I have ever been to has been colored by that approach, and ten years ago every parish had a very thriving Charismatic prayer group. Our parish had the second largest such group and community, all the Masses were very charismatic and there was a full blown, speaking in tongues healing Mass every few months. So, my experience of this movement, at least its impact on the life in a parish outside of its own prayer circles, is first hand.
I will not say that something is from the Devil, as I think there are other options, but as for being from God, well… Let me just show a couple of examples from the parish with the strongest and most influential Charismatic presence and somebody here can tell me if it sounds like the Spirit at work.
In that parish not only was any possible attention to liturgical reverence non-existant, but it actually would descend to sacrelige quite often. I can attest to the time the priest came forward, after the lay men and women at the altar all communicated themselves, and hollered “Body of Jesus, if you want it!” The crowd, that is what they were, laughed. I have been physically assaulted in that Church during the Our Father, and I do mean assaulted. I had actual marks on my arm from when the person yanked on me to force me to hold their hand. BTW, I hadn’t refused to do such, though I don’t like it, but had not even finished standing up and was putting the kneeler back when they reached over and grabbed me. After having been treated this way, when the peace came around, they refused to shake my hand and walked over to another pew and chatted with somebody they knew. This church also had the beautiful Catholic tradition of all the people saying the final “Through him, with him, in him…” part of the Eucharistic prayer with the priest.
So, I have seen this movement from not the inside, but rather from that immediate circle around it feeling the effects of it without being colored by being an insider. And what were the fruits? Without exception I can tell you that they were division, resentment, and liturgical abuse. Sure, the people in the gruops gave every indication of being very strong believers, but their actions were counterindicative. Could the Spirit really inspire disobedience to the liturgical laws? Is that really possible? I just don’t accept it.
Patrick
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GregoryPalamas
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Most if not all of my experience with the Charismatic renewal have been positive. I have heard of some troublesome disobedience which could be traced back to this movement but I have never encountered it. Perhaps I don’t have as much trouble with it is because The Eastern Catholic Church generally combines Charisma with Tradition quite nicely.
CDL
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otjm
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It has been said, and more than once, that where ever God is, the devil is not far behind.
Think for a moment: where would the devil be most active; with someone who is at best lukewarm in their faith, or with someone who’s faith is growing?
With those who are lukewarm, he doesn’t need to make much effort, as they are not that far from the tipping point.
I do not suggest, and nothing in my post should suggest that everything with the the Charismatic movement is all roses (a traditional sign of Mary), nor that it is somehow impervious to the faults of humans, nor that those involved somehow are protected from all error.
However, the poster to whom I was replying made the suggestion that implied that this is the work of the devil. I have seen the faith grow in many Charismatics. I have seen the fruits of the Spirit - love, patience, kindness, and even more I have seen people come alive with love of Christ; with a willingness to share the Good News as if they were on fire with it.
I have also lived long enough to see the Jesuits slide down a slippery slope, from fantastic teachers who gave no indication of being anything but true blue to the Magisterium, to having an individual in training whose internet i.d. was Jabba the Slut. I have watched this with continuing dismay. It does not imply that all Jesuits are borderline heretics (and maybe on the other side of the border), as I know some who are still in the mold I first knew 50+ years ago. But I find it astounding how the order has changed on the whole. Someone looking at the order and having only contact with some of the lulu’s who call themselves Jesuits would have nothing good to say of any of them. The Charismatic Movement I am sure has had its “problem children”. But if one concentrates only on those who have gone astray somewhere, one is not making an honest evaluation of the Movement. It is like presuming because one may be in a diocese that has many liturgical abuses, that all dioceses are rife with liturgical abuses.
I am sorry for your experiences. I am not in direct contact with Charismatics now as a group, but I still know a number of people who have been involved with it, and they are still strong memebers of the Church. Your experience is not universal, nor indicative of the sum and substance of the movement.
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una_fides
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The more the Church returns to her traditions and the more she teaches the fullness of the Catholic faith, the more you will see movements such as the charismatic movement (CM) dwindle. The CM puts too much emphasis on extra sacramental experiences and it often results in many leaving the Catholic faith. Protestant charismatic groups tend to oppose the Catholic Church and are excited about the charismatic movement within the Church and use it as a means to draw countless souls away from the Church and her saving sacraments. The primary reasons the movement has gain popularity in our self-obsessed culture is that it emphasizes emotion-driven experiences to such a high degree and uses emotional music and services to promulgate their practices. While good things have come from the movement in some sincere conversions, many also have left the faith as a result and Catholic dogmas have been blurred, distorted, changed, and overlooked in many instances. Here’s an interesting article about it:unitypublishing.com/NewReligiousMovements/WhatSpirit1.html
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consumedconvert
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If we are interested in the mindset of the Holy Father on the Charasmatic Renewal, I suggest the following article:
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cothrige
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Well, we certainly cannot take this to mean that all movements are good in all that they do. Even when the Holy Father says that movements are good, that won’t mean that if a movement engages in negative or uncatholic activities it is still to be accepted and praised. These statements are simply meant to give approval to movements in general.If we are interested in the mindset of the Holy Father on the Charasmatic Renewal, I suggest the following article:
I would say that even when the Holy Father speaks well of the Charismatic movement specifically we still have to keep certain things in mind. Does he have contact with the same movement that is going on here? In encouraging that movement is he intending to also approve of anything that the movement may or may not do at any given time or in any given place? I doubt it.
For instance, does the Holy Father approve of the Charismatic movement that is in domination of this area of North Florida that I reside in? I say domination because that really is what it is. Most of the local priests seem to be from that movement and so all of the Masses are charismatic in approach. I know many Catholics here who have asked for more Latin, not TLM btw, or different music and so on, but they have all been rebuffed. Absolutely no toleration is visible regarding non-charismatic worship. All Masses and liturgical events are to be done in a charismatic manner, and no suggestion or request to do anything differently is tolerated or considered. It is this narrow-minded, intolerant and judgmental attitude that has left me irreparably opposed to the Charismatic movement in its every manifestation. I have been oppressed by the Charismatic renewal and refused access to anything but Charismatic methodology, even though I am not attached or associated in any manner whatsoever with this movement.
I am reminded of an event I read about regarding the FSSP at one time. A while ago I heard that that organization would be required to say the Novus Ordo Mass, even though they had been formed for the purpose of saying the old Mass, since it was suggested that in doing otherwise they might be harboring some sort of denial of the validity of the new Mass. Okay, fine. But, with this in mind, why are Charismatic people allowed to use nothing but charismatic liturgies refusing outright to do otherwise? I am not in a charismatic group or order. I am not in such a school. I am in a parish, and I cannot see how it is possible that some small minded bunch of people are allowed to come in and force every Catholic who simply happens to live their to suffer the choices preferred by a movement that they happen to adhere to? I just don’t buy it, and in no way do I think for a second that the Holy Father really approves of it.
Patrick
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PrayforMallory
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This post is extremely important to this discussion.I think we can take a good look at what is stagnant and what is not and learn something. Which groups are growing the fastest? Islam certainly leads statistically, but in many places Fundamentalist Christianity continues to grow in leaps and bounds. Why? And why is the Church “stagnant” in its growth?
I think the obvious answer lies in basic honesty and what draws people to a faith. When I officially became a Catholic, I was raised high-church Anglican and so always felt catholic btw, I was
told by the sister running the RCIA class that the Catholic Church was just one denomination in God’s Church. I ask you, why should people alienate themselves from their families, undergo study and inconvenient classes in order to convert to a Church which doesn’t actually have any greater place in God’s “Church” than does the one the person is coming from? Our modern Church is all about grey areas, and we no longer get any sense of clarity about what God expects from us.
If we compare this to those other non-stagnant groups we can see a clear line of demarcation. Muslims know exactly what they believe God expects of them. So do Fundamentalists. In fact, these groups are both effectively “fundamentalist” and that draws converts. Clear faith attracts believers and converts, and enlivens a people, not mush-mouthed indecision. And, regardless of any perceived gifts, the Charismatic movement is less waffly (is that a word?) than is the rest of the Catholic Church. It probably inherits some of that from it’s Protestant roots, but it also has a somewhat focussed and unique spirituality to deflect any notice from its rather confused theological underpinnings.
Patrick
A possible argument. This is not necessarily what I hold, but I’d like to hear different views.
Mormons, Muslims, Fundies, their religions spread like wildfire. Our Catholic faith dwindles. We have the truth. So why? They don’t care what anybody has to say about their faith. We try to be diplomatic all the time. It might have worked in a previous era. is it working now? Mormons, Muslims, and Fundamentalists need to know why they are in danger. Otherwise, being intelligent people, they won’t turn away from their own religions and join ours. It’s common sense, right? If you are running for student council, and your speech is half-hearted and lacks confidence (even though it has content), well, you even a blustering idiot can win more votes (think Bush).
Here is another argument I thought up. It may or may not stand the test:
There is zero chance that the Charismatic movement descends from the Holy Spirit. Why? Because the Catholic Church has the fullness of Truth. In the era in which the Protestants supposedly received these “gifts,” the Catholic Church at the time didn’t.
The truth is that the Catholic Church at the time had the fullness of Truth. If the Catholics didn’t recieve it first, it is specifically false, according to this doctrine. If the Charismatic movement were valid, well, it would logically mean that the Catholic Church in the 1950’s did not have that aspect of Truth, and thus, did not possess the fullness of Truth.
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una_fides
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Great post and good points. I feel your pain. I have to drive 30-45 minutes from my home to attend a truly reverent Mass without liturgical abuses and about an hour if I want to hear a priest who will actually teach the fullness of the Catholic faith without having any abuses in his masses. The Church is truly in a suffering state, and much of the problems rest on the shoulders of tolerant bishops.
That being said, I would highly recommend appealing your case up the chain of command to your bishop and even to the Pope if necessary in order for something to be done. You could also form a group and try to get signatures of others who have similar concerns such as yourself. You could get parishioners together to send money directly to the bishop and bypass the local church, which could certainly gain some attention to your cause. Most importantly let us all continue to pray that God will send a true spirit of liturgical and disciplinary renewal to his Church, that she may regain the sense of Tradition and absolute truth that so many in her number have seemed to toss out the window along with her morals. Let us implore our Lady’s help and pray the rosary daily and do penance on behalf of the Church and her bishops.
God bless.
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