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CSPaxChristi
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I am wondering if Protestantism isn’t Christian because it denies the Sacraments and has no valid Apostolic succession.
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CSPaxChristi
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I agree with your statement, I do tend to argue with fundamentalist that they are not true Christians because of how far removed they are from Catholic Doctrine.
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BartholomewB
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If you’re in doubt about the meaning of the English word “Christian”, look it up in a good dictionary. You’ll see that it covers a very much wider range of meanings than just the Catholic Church.
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SyCarl
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818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers … All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”
https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P29.HTM
https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P29.HTM
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do_justly_love_mercy
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Sacraments and apostolic succession are not essential characteristics of Christianity. A Christian is somebody who follows Jesus Christ. I think you are confusing Christianity with the Vatican’s definition of what constitutes a “proper Church”. There are many Christians who do not belong to “proper Churches”.
Again, I think you are getting confused between “Catholic doctrine” and being a “true Christian”. One does not have to follow Catholic doctrine to be a Christian. The measure of how Christian somebody is is not how near or far they are from Catholic doctrine. The Church of the East, the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches, and Old Catholics are not Protestant, but they are also somewhat “far removed” from Catholicism. I have a lot of disagreements with fundamentalist Protestantism, but I would not suggest that they are not Christians.
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TK421
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Anybody who has received a Trinitarian baptism is sacramentally a Christian.
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Chistian-ity
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Thank you.
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adf417
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While the Catholic church teaches that all protestant denominations are Christian, “protestantism” as a movement or phenomenon can and has proven to caused some to ceased being Christian.
Protestantism is the phenomenon that began at the reformation. This phenomenon to a large degree is based on the authority of the bible alone with some variances. The earliest reformers such as Lutherans & Anglicans hold on to some, but not all, of the early church Traditions and hold these as authoritative to some degree. As you move further away from the earliest reformers even these Traditions are dropped leaving the only authority to be the bible and even this was to be interpreted by their denominational hierarchy such as Southern Baptist Convention. In the last few years we have seen most evangelical groups give way to the non-denominational groups which have completely removed themselves from all outside or communal authorities.
Just In these variances within the protestant denominations you can see what i call the “trajectory of inferiority” and the root cause is self interpretation of the bible. At this point there has been no faith break, only schisms. The root of our faith (Trinitarian belief in God) is still in tact.
Following this trajectory, self interpretation of the bible, Jehovah’s Witnesses cross the line. They have always used the same Christian bible as typical protestants do, originally the KJV, but their interpretation is quite different. Different to the extreme that they now have their own distorted translation.
Yes, “protestantism” as a phenomenon can lead one to cease being Christian.
Peace!!!
Protestantism is the phenomenon that began at the reformation. This phenomenon to a large degree is based on the authority of the bible alone with some variances. The earliest reformers such as Lutherans & Anglicans hold on to some, but not all, of the early church Traditions and hold these as authoritative to some degree. As you move further away from the earliest reformers even these Traditions are dropped leaving the only authority to be the bible and even this was to be interpreted by their denominational hierarchy such as Southern Baptist Convention. In the last few years we have seen most evangelical groups give way to the non-denominational groups which have completely removed themselves from all outside or communal authorities.
Just In these variances within the protestant denominations you can see what i call the “trajectory of inferiority” and the root cause is self interpretation of the bible. At this point there has been no faith break, only schisms. The root of our faith (Trinitarian belief in God) is still in tact.
Following this trajectory, self interpretation of the bible, Jehovah’s Witnesses cross the line. They have always used the same Christian bible as typical protestants do, originally the KJV, but their interpretation is quite different. Different to the extreme that they now have their own distorted translation.
Yes, “protestantism” as a phenomenon can lead one to cease being Christian.
Peace!!!
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TK421
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In Catholic teaching, anybody that validly receives the Sacrament of Baptism is a Christian.
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JimG
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A valid Trinitarian baptism does make a person a Christian, by removing original sin and any personal sin, and conferring sanctifying grace. It makes one a child of God and a member if the Church
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Gingersnaps4
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The branches that believe that baptism
Is only symbolic and isn’t necessary are bordering on the fringes of being Christian imo…after all you are technically not even a Christian unless you are baptized, That is how you are brought into the New Covenant but they have evolved until they have forgotten that. Actually all of the evangelical-type denominations that believe in the sinners prayer, OSAS and a symbolic Eucharist and baptism wouldn’t be recognizable as Christian to anyone living in past ages… but yes I do think that God may still see them as being Christ-followers due to them not having the culpability of knowing better.
Is only symbolic and isn’t necessary are bordering on the fringes of being Christian imo…after all you are technically not even a Christian unless you are baptized, That is how you are brought into the New Covenant but they have evolved until they have forgotten that. Actually all of the evangelical-type denominations that believe in the sinners prayer, OSAS and a symbolic Eucharist and baptism wouldn’t be recognizable as Christian to anyone living in past ages… but yes I do think that God may still see them as being Christ-followers due to them not having the culpability of knowing better.
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Edmundus1581
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Catholics may be surprised at how much of a difference there is between us and Protestants in our different understanding of baptism as the mark of a “Christian”. Unlike us, Protestants, even in the more traditional branches, such as Anglicanism, place little stock in infant baptism, and often view it with suspicion, and while they baptise infants there is a big “but!..”.
When I was considering joining the Catholic Church four decades ago I discussed this with Father who was instructing me, as one of my “objections” with Catholicism. I told him that to me it seemed strange that someone who had been baptised as an infant, and had since lived a completely non-Christian life, could somehow be called a “Christian”. Father tended to agree with me, and said such people may be, in his words, “ontologically” (ie., essentially) a Christian, but it didn’t mean much.
Forty years later, I disagree with Father. (Although my memories of that brief conversation and his advice may be a mis-statement of his position).
In my time as a Protestant, I saw that estimation of someones “Christianity” was very much in their active profession of faith. Sole Fides. To me now, it just looks like justification by works, where works is a busy sort of demonstrable “faith”.
So, we Catholics believe in grace more, by accepting God’s grace through baptism, rather than the mental effort of faith.
Not sure about Lutherans. I’d be curious to know! Who was our consultant on Lutheranism here? I used to find him very helpful.
When I was considering joining the Catholic Church four decades ago I discussed this with Father who was instructing me, as one of my “objections” with Catholicism. I told him that to me it seemed strange that someone who had been baptised as an infant, and had since lived a completely non-Christian life, could somehow be called a “Christian”. Father tended to agree with me, and said such people may be, in his words, “ontologically” (ie., essentially) a Christian, but it didn’t mean much.
Forty years later, I disagree with Father. (Although my memories of that brief conversation and his advice may be a mis-statement of his position).
In my time as a Protestant, I saw that estimation of someones “Christianity” was very much in their active profession of faith. Sole Fides. To me now, it just looks like justification by works, where works is a busy sort of demonstrable “faith”.
So, we Catholics believe in grace more, by accepting God’s grace through baptism, rather than the mental effort of faith.
That’s most Protestants that I know of, even Anglicans.
Not sure about Lutherans. I’d be curious to know! Who was our consultant on Lutheranism here? I used to find him very helpful.
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Vico
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Consider that it is not just those receiving water baptism that attain to Heaven, and that all those that receive baptism of water do not attain to Heaven, nor do all those that receive baptism of desire attain to Heaven. Those that lack sanctifying grace are not members of the Body of Christ. So having the title Christian does not guarantee that one is a member of the Body of Christ.
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7_Sorrows
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I have always heard that Protestantism does not have the fullness of the faith.
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GKMotley
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And that’s not most Anglicans. Motley as the herd be, that’s not a representative position. On the sinner’s prayer, OSAS, symbolic Eucharist, and baptism.
Where are you finding these folk?
I think the Lutheran person you want might be JonNC. He is certainly helpful.
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My church is Reformed, but a big proponent of infant baptism. It is people who ask or advocate for alternate options we view a bit suspiciously.
Here, baptism prep is taught ecumenically, and I don’t think I (the Reformed minister) have ever said anything the Catholic priest would have disagreed with.
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babochka
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I am pretty sure that the dictionary definition would cover members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but the Catholic church does not consider Mormons to be Christian because they lack a Christian baptism.CSPaxChristi:
If you’re in doubt about the meaning of the English word “Christian”, look it up in a good dictionary. You’ll see that it covers a very much wider range of meanings than just the Catholic Church.
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TomH1
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Yes, it does.
Regarding the necessity of Baptism:
Hence, regarding practice and doctrine, use of the term “Protestant” is folly.
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