Has Protestantism Ceased Being Christian

[TomH1]

I am wondering if Protestantism isn’t Christian because it denies the Sacraments and has no valid Apostolic succession.

The problem with this question is you cannot say, ‘Protestants believe …’.

There are many Protestant denominations and they all believe different things. One of the reasons for the different denominations is because sometimes members of the same denomination cannot agree and go off and start a new denomination.

It is not true to say that all Protestants deny the existence of sacraments. Some do and others do not. What you will often find in Protestantism is that different groups accept different numbers of sacraments. For example, the general rule in Anglicanism is that there are two sacraments (baptism and Eucharist). However, there are Anglicans, e.g. Anglo-Catholics, who believe in seven sacraments. Even the Eastern Orthodox do not agree on the number of sacraments, or mysteries as they call them, they often claim there are more than seven.

Of course, from the official Catholic perspective no Protestant group has valid apostolic succession and they are ecclesial communities. However, some do retain the threefold ministry of deacon, priest and bishop and they believe they are valid. They also often believe that ordination sets one apart. Whereas other Protestant groups do not believe that the elders, ministers, pastors, presbyters or whatever other term they employ are different from anyone else.

 

[JonNC]

While the Catholic church teaches that all protestant denominations are Christian, “protestantism” as a movement or phenomenon can and has proven to caused some to ceased being Christian.

Protestantism is the phenomenon that began at the reformation.

Your evaluation, while earnest, falls apart from the start. “Protestantism” is not a movement. The term has no value beyond a convenient but general grouping of western Christian traditions that are not in communion with the pope.
It isn’t a movement or a phenomenon. Lutheranism, as a tradition, has little more in common with the Anabaptist tradition than Catholicism does. Regarding the sacraments of Baptism, Holy Absolution, and the Eucharist, Lutherans have more in common with Catholicism than Baptists.

 

[thistle]

Getting baptized does not make you a Christian. Getting baptized didn’t make me a Christian. I became a Christian by Jesus forgiving me of my sins. You realize we are not saved by works but by God’s grace.

A Christian is a person who has been baptised with water in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit and believes in the Holy Trinity.

By the way why do you bring up “we are not saved by works” as if it’s something we do not believe in. The Catholic Church does not teach that we can be saved by works!!

 

[Bithynian]

that’s not a representative position

Agreed. Even the Anglican Diocese of Sydney - the most evangelical and the most Reformed Anglican diocese in the world - emphasises and rigorously defends infant baptism.

 

[Hodos]

I am wondering if Protestantism isn’t Christian because it denies the Sacraments and has no valid Apostolic succession.

Protestants of any stripe do not deny the Sacraments. They have different understandings of what a sacrament is (this usually comes down to the difference between a sacrifice where man offers something to God in order to receive God’s favor, and a sacrament where God bestows his favor on man according to God’s own grace) and the nature of how God’s promises in the sacraments are delivered. Protestants also do not deny Apostolic succession. We take issue with the definition of what constitutes valid Apostolic succession.

 

[TNMan]

There’s a problem when you use the word “Protestant.” It’s not just one branch of Christianity, so to paint Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists with the same brush isn’t doing anyone any favors.

All people baptized in the Trinitarian formula are Christians. Even the Catholic Church acknowledges this. Scripture tells us that “all who call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

There are many Catholics and many Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians, etc. in Heaven today. There are many people who put the same labels on themselves and are in Hell.

 

[Mishakel]

A Christian is a person who has been baptised with water in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit and believes in the Holy Trinity.

I have to take the question on the OP with a little grain of salt because this is after all a Catholic forum. I realize there are lots of different religions and beliefs in the world but according to scripture a person is either part of the elect (righteous in God’s eyes) or, not. The term Christian rightfully describes a person who is part of the elect.

You will notice many times that a new chapter in scripture doesn’t necessarily begin a new topic but is simply a direct continuation from the previous chapter. We see this going from Romans chapter 4 to chapter 5.

Paul is speaking of Abraham but is tying his faith together with the faith of a Christian. Righteousness is what is being described as being imputed.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

1. Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
   2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

In the end, it really doesn’t matter to me if the entity of Catholicism believes I am a Christian or not. My goal in this life is not to please Catholicism or its members. My goal must be to do as God instructs and have faith that God sent his only son to die on the cross so that my sins are forgiven.

As shown above Paul states this faith is what justifies us before God and not only that but we can have peace because of it. That will always amaze me. God himself made a pathway for this lowly sinner to be justified before his very eyes. I don’t mean any of my comments to be crass or unloving but I must answer to God, not any other entity, including Protestantism.

 

[JonNC]

TK421:

CSPaxChristi:
Anybody who has received a Trinitarian baptism is sacramentally a Christian.

Getting baptized does not make you a Christian. Getting baptized didn’t make me a Christian. I became a Christian by Jesus forgiving me of my sins. You realize we are not saved by works but by God’s grace.

Being baptized is forgiveness of sins. Being baptized is God’s grace. Baptism is a means by which God makes grace available to us.

 

[Mishakel]

Being baptized is forgiveness of sins. Being baptized is God’s grace. Baptism is a means by which God makes grace available to us.

If you believe this, why do you think Phillip put a precondition of faith on the eunuch prior to being baptized?

Just curious.

 

[Bithynian]

It’s worth noting that χριστιανός (christianos) occurs only thrice in the Scriptures (Acts 11:26, 26:28; 1 Pet 4:16), and only in a general sense of being a disciple of Christ. Neither Paul nor Luke place any other specific qualifications on the use of χριστιανός.

That being said, I feel that there’s a bit of talking (or posting!) at cross purposes in this thread, using different theological standards (that are particular to one Christian community) or conflating “Christian” with “a good member of [insert Christian church]”.

Historically and regardless of sacramental theology, baptism has been considered near universally as the absolute minimum to be recognised as a Christian.

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

Being baptized is forgiveness of sins. Being baptized is God’s grace. Baptism is a means by which God makes grace available to us.

If you believe this, why do you think Phillip put a precondition of faith on the eunuch prior to being baptized?

Just curious.

Was the Eunuch an adult?

God confers grace in a number of ways.
Baptism now saves you.
Faith comes by hearing.
Etc

 

[adf417]

Your evaluation, while earnest, falls apart from the start. “Protestantism” is not a movement. The term has no value beyond a convenient but general grouping of western Christian traditions that are not in communion with the pope.
It isn’t a movement or a phenomenon. Lutheranism, as a tradition, has little more in common with the Anabaptist tradition than Catholicism does. Regarding the sacraments of Baptism, Holy Absolution, and the Eucharist, Lutherans have more in common with Catholicism than Baptists.

Phenomenon - phe·nom·e·non
noun
a fact or situation that is observed to exist or happen, especially one whose cause or explanation is in question.

By the very fact we continue to have this discussion on CAF, the confusion of what protestantism is and is not even within protestantism itself sure seems to fit this definition of phenomenon.

I do agree it does not fit the individual faith traditions within protestantism but i think i addressed that in my OP.

Peace!!!

 

[JonNC]

Phenomenon - phe·nom·e·non
noun
a fact or situation that is observed to exist or happen, especially one whose cause or explanation is in question.

The actual protest was limited to a particular diet.

By the very fact we continue to have this discussion on CAF, the confusion of what protestantism is and is not even within protestantism itself sure seems to fit this definition of phenomenon.

Are there disagreements between particular traditions? Obviously. There’s no confusion that I’ve seen.

 

[adf417]

There’s no confusion that I’ve seen.

Confusion may not have been the right word.

Peace!!!

 

[HomeschoolDad]

I am wondering if Protestantism isn’t Christian because it denies the Sacraments and has no valid Apostolic succession.

It is Christian, but the word “Christian” has come to mean anyone who believes in the special significance of, and usually regarding as divine, the man called Jesus. It’s essentially meaningless.

It has come to the point where only the things we all agree on, are regarded as being at the core of Christianity. This is an error. This means, then, that sacraments, apostolic succession, the Real Presence, the role of Mary in the economy of salvation, the papacy, and much, much more, aren’t essential to being a Christian — because so many people don’t believe in them!

I know I use this expression a lot (because it’s so apt!), but once again, the tail wags the dog.

 

[Edmundus1581]

Thankyou for the various replies to my post about non-RC (avoiding labels) positions on baptism.

I’ll acknowledge that you know more about your own traditions than I do, so thanks for the information.

Edmundus1581:

That’s most Protestants that I know of, even Anglicans.

…
Where are you finding these folk?
…

I am talking about my own upbringing in the Anglican Church, up till 1981, and other Protestant (mainly charismatic and evangelical) acquaintances I made along the way. At the time I left the Anglican Church for Catholicism, “born again” Christianity was popular with the youth and clergy in Australian Anglican circles, including “baptism in the spirit”, referring heavily to John 3:3-5.

3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

This book section supports my recollections of that era (mentioning that Evangelical Anglicanism was a parallel movement, which would eventually dominate)

---

Thankyou, to several posters, for the clarification of Anglican, Lutheran and other non-RC positions on baptism.

I’ll admit my statements were too “universal”, but I think they would apply to many non-RC Christians.

 

[GKMotley]

Ah. Australia.

Say no more.

Keep the motley motto in mind.

 

[Edmundus1581]

<-----



OK.

 

[CSPaxChristi]

Thank you all for your responses. I have a question regarding humans. I was talking to a Protestant and he said that at his church they where saying that a human is body, soul, and spirit. What is the Catholic view on this.

 

[thistle]

Thank you all for your responses. I have a question regarding humans. I was talking to a Protestant and he said that at his church they where saying that a human is body, soul, and spirit. What is the Catholic view on this.

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