Has the church infallibly claimed that gay marriage and ABC are sinful and wrong?

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edwest2 said:
That’s it? I started out with the Latin Mass and then English. I don’t see much support for your argument.

God bless,
Ed
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What about Pope John Paul apologizing for the inquisition and crusades? These were things that were supported by the church at the time.
 
bingbang said:
So the question still stands…if somehow the church has some change of spirit, calls vatican III, could they change their stance on gay marriage and ABC?
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What did Vatican II change really? It didn’t change anything the Church teaches about morals or fundamental truths. It didn’t change dogma. All Vatican II changed is how Mass is performed.
 
edwest2 said:
That’s it? I started out with the Latin Mass and then English. I don’t see much support for your argument.

God bless,
Ed
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If a priest started saying mass in the vernacular from 324 to 1960 he would probably be excommunicated. Right? But that teaching changed.
 
edwest2 said:
It was 1968 when Pope Paul VI had Humanae Vitae published. It was some priests and some theologians who disagreed. Pope Paul VI was quite clear in Humanae Vitae. At the time, the perverted Sexual Revolution was just getting off the ground. Pope Paul VI realized what would happen next, and sadly, it did.

God bless,
Ed
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i heard the United Catholic Bishops disagreed w/ the birth control thing since 1966
 
Lutheranteach said:
I wonder how many of those involved with the Church’s decision on ABC would change their opinion/vote if they could do it again tomorrow.
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I think almost all of the Bishops that voted to allow ABC in the past would now vote against it, so I think a lot of the votes would change.

Thanks be to God for the Holy Spirit guiding the One True Church to what has ultimately been revealed as a tremendous evil in the world before anyone even knew. If you want proof of guidance by the Holy Spirit, where the One True Church is, and Papal infallibility being God breathed truth, this is one of many.

Homosexual “marriage” may end up being yet another.

God Bless.
 
distracted said:
Pope Eugene IV said that there is no salvation outsidet the Church. St rober Bellarmine said the same thing and so did a bunch of other saints…
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Good example. This was a view that was probably held throughout history until very recently.
 
bingbang said:
Good example. This was a view that was probably held throughout history until very recently.
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God doesn’t change and infallible teachings don’t either…

i agree w/ one poster’s thought (not sure it was his?) that if a person is Catholic according to the “inner forum” he is essentially part of the Church…

but how many nonCatholics do you know who are inwardly Catholic… meaning they don’t practice birth control… aren’t divorded/remarried (or have repented, if so)… are totally pro-life… don’t hate the catholic Church and think its the Whore of Babylon… and etc???
 
You guys have to understand that there is difference between Church discipline and small “t” traditions, and the Deposit of Faith which is big “T” Tradition with Sacred Scripture that Christ has entrusted to the Apostles who then entrusted it to the Church.

The Deposit of Faith cannot be changed, ever. Only Christ has the authority to change it, not even Peter or any of the 12 can change it.

Gay marriage belongs to the Deposit of Faith. Christ has said upon institution of the Sacrament of Marriage is that a man and a woman become one through marriage. Christ did not teach that a man and a man can become one, nor two women can become one in marriage. Therefore marriage only is between a man and a woman. And this is even supported by the Old Testament through Genesis when God created Eve for Adam. It has been God’s plan from the beginning, so there is really nothing we can do to change it.

Things like priestly celibacy is not part of the Deposit of Faith. Christ did not choose celibate men to become Apostles. Though Christ Himself saw the value of celibacy, He never required it. St. Paul further encouraged celibacy among the religious men and women (its not confined to the ordained, but those who live a life of service to the faith) but again never required it. So the Church can turn back on disciplinary actions such as celibacy anytime she wants.
 
ConstantineTG said:
You guys have to understand that there is difference between Church discipline and small “t” traditions, and the Deposit of Faith which is big “T” Tradition with Sacred Scripture that Christ has entrusted to the Apostles who then entrusted it to the Church.

The Deposit of Faith cannot be changed, ever. Only Christ has the authority to change it, not even Peter or any of the 12 can change it.

Gay marriage belongs to the Deposit of Faith. Christ has said upon institution of the Sacrament of Marriage is that a man and a woman become one through marriage. Christ did not teach that a man and a man can become one, nor two women can become one in marriage. Therefore marriage only is between a man and a woman. And this is even supported by the Old Testament through Genesis when God created Eve for Adam. It has been God’s plan from the beginning, so there is really nothing we can do to change it.

Things like priestly celibacy is not part of the Deposit of Faith. Christ did not choose celibate men to become Apostles. Though Christ Himself saw the value of celibacy, He never required it. St. Paul further encouraged celibacy among the religious men and women (its not confined to the ordained, but those who live a life of service to the faith) but again never required it. So the Church can turn back on disciplinary actions such as celibacy anytime she wants.
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if the Church knew what i knew about romance and relationships… they would demand that everyone be celibate… 😃

yes the world would die out … but hey, at least there wouldn’t be any more humans living who could end up in Hell…
 
bingbang said:
I haven’t been to a latin mass recently.
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The form, structure and language of Mass are not matters of faith and morals.
Has the church infallibly claimed that gay marriage and ABC are sinful and wrong?
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The OP covers two categories. What is wrong and what is sinful.

As far as what is sinful, it is sinful to disobey the teachings of the Church. Even the ones that change (ie disciplines)
 
bingbang said:
So the crusades as a whole were not a mess up according to the church? The crusades were a righteous war?
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You’ve lost me. Can you clarify the connection between the Crusades and same-sex marriage/ABC?
 
distracted said:
if the Church knew what i knew about romance and relationships… they would demand that everyone be celibate… 😃

yes the world would die out … but hey, at least there wouldn’t be any more humans living who could end up in Hell…
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That is why God allows for people like me, to repopulate the earth 😃

But seriously, we are called to different things. That is why Marriage is as much as a vocation as being a priest or a nun. A lot of people today forget that Marriage is a vocation, that being a good father or mother is not only a duty to ourselves, our spouse and our children, but also a duty to God. We can’t simply have children and raise them any way we want. We have the duty to raise them as good citizens of the world and as good, dutiful and devout Christians. Parents are God’s micromanagers. We are given a far smaller congregation that priests who are in charge of a parish, or a bishop who is in charge of a diocese. We have 1 or 2 or 3, or in the rare occassion more than 5, but this limited number of kids we are blessed with we are to take care of them and shape them and mold them into ideal Christians through whom which God will continue to bless the earth in years to come.
 
bingbang said:
So the crusades as a whole were not a mess up according to the church? The crusades were a righteous war?
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What you need to understand, regarding your OP on this topic is that JPII apologized not for the crusades, but for the actions of the crusaders outside of their original mission.

This is getting a bit off topic I think but again, it is not a change in any teaching of the Church.
 
bingbang said:
If a priest started saying mass in the vernacular from 324 to 1960 he would probably be excommunicated. Right? But that teaching changed.
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I don’t think the punishment was excommunication. But the priest would have been wrong because he was being disobedient. Disobedience to the Church is always wrong.
distracted said:
i heard the United Catholic Bishops disagreed w/ the birth control thing since 1966
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Do you mean the US Bishops? There have been many who spoke out against birth control. But the USCCB has consistently voted to affirm the Church teaching on birth control at least ever since the CCC came out. I don’t know if it was ever a majority of bishops, just some very vocal ones.

Besides, national bishops conferences don’t have any effect on the Church’s teaching with regard to faith and morals.
OchsFam said:
There is no salvation outside of the Church. It hasn’t changed.
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Exactly. The doctrine has developed as our knowledge about other cultures has broadened. The more recent teachings also put more emphasis on God’s mercy. (that’s not a bad thing)
 
OchsFam said:
What you need to understand, regarding your OP on this topic is that JPII apologized not for the crusades, but for the actions of the crusaders outside of their original mission.

This is getting a bit off topic I think but again, it is not a change in any teaching of the Church.
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When people look at the Crusades, they only see the wrong that is done. The Crusades and the Inquisition both had noble objectives but in the end were abused. The Church never taught for massacres to happen but those who participated in them thought they were empowered to do so.

It is the same way today that some sects believe they can validly marry someone who is divorced, or two people of the same gender. But its just a wrong perception on their part. If in the future we finally reap the ugly fruits of gay marriage and realize what a horrible mistake it was, do we accuse the Church of wrongdoing for allowing marriage? Remember, marriage came from the Church, but people perverted this Sacrament to introduce gay marriage. The same way in the past the Church tried to fight off the Muslims or heresy, but some people used this mandate to forward their own agendas.
 
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