Has the Church redirected the Pope's speech to be an attack on America not Islam?

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Hello all,

Is the Pope’s speech on Islam really (originally) about "the pope’s talk focused primarily on the religious shortcomings of the West."? Or is the Vatican redirecting its attack away from the attrocities committed by Muslim leaders and toward making America look evil (their safe, and constant, attack mode) in order to avoid martyrdom of the Pope and Catholics?

Have Muslim threats of terrorism against the Church worked for the terrorists in controling world image?

Still no Papal condemnation of Sudanies Muslim leaders genociding 400,000+ people. Unless someone, somewhere can find a link.

The Vatican condemning America while remaining silent to the attrocities of Muslim leaders seems to be the Vatican stand. (even if, at first, it seems otherwise) "a careful reading would show that the pope had offered to Islam “an outstretched hand” in the battle against a secular global culture." said Cardinal Paul Poupard.

Link: BenedictXVI: ‘I am deeply sorry’[

](http://www.seattlearch.org/FormationAndEducation/Progress/PopeBenedictApology+09-21-06.htm)VATICAN CITYBy John Thavis"Cardinal Paul Poupard, who heads the Vatican council that dialogues with Muslims, said a careful reading would show that the pope had offered to Islam “an outstretched hand” in the battle against a secular global culture."“Indeed it was (the pope) who, before the religious fervor of Muslim believers, warned secularized Western culture to guard against 'the contempt for God and the cynicism that considers mockery of the sacred to be an exercise of freedom,’” Cardinal Bertone said.""Vatican spokesman Father Federico Lombardi said that while the papal speech contained a “clear and radical rejection of the religious motivation for violence,” **it was not meant to be a critical assessment of Islam. **On the contrary, Father Lombardi said, the pope’s talk focused primarily on the religious shortcomings of the West."
 
Do you have a news article saying that the Church is redirecting the Pope’s remarks?
 
Malachi 3-23 ’ Lo , I will send you Elijah The prophet…

24 - to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children and the hearts of the children to their fathers…’

In our times where violence in its many forms - to self and others , to the unborn , to young minds , and scorn or contempt for the sacred , is at flood levels , like in days of Noah and probably also grieving The Father’s Heart , hope the words of Pope Benedict would reverberate … through many cultures and people …
 
The Pope has always spoken out against the secularism of the West. Remember his famous speech on “relativism” early on in his papacy? It is well-known that the Pope is greatly concerned about the decline of practicing Christians in Europe - which he sees as the loss of European heritage - and the threat of Islam in the West as a culturally destructive force. It was last year when he raised some eyebrows at the suggestion that Turkey does not belong in the E.U. because it is an Islamic nation. None of this is new. He said his speech at Regensburg was about reason and faith and that the majority of it was directed at the West from the very moment this controversy started brewing. He has expressed concern about the decline of Christianity and the rise of secularism in Europe since his first days as Pontiff. The part in the speech about using violence to force conversion being antithetical to religion and the infamous quote, in particular, were very small parts of a speech with a much larger theme. I don’t see any “redirection” here at all.

Here is an interview with Pope Benedict a month before his trip to Germany in which he discusses the issues that he will address while there:

dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,2129951,00.html
 
This is a news forum. One of the requirements for posting here is that a link to a publicly available news article be included in the original post. This thread is now closed.

Walt
 
Steven_Merten said:
Hello gilliam,

BenedictXVI: ‘I am deeply sorry’http://www.seattlearch.org/FormationAndEducation/Progress/PopeBenedictApology+09-21-06.htm
Are you asking if the Vatican outright told the Muslim world that they were redirecting the Pope’s speech as an attack on the secular West (America) rather than having targeted the Muslim world in his speech?
Click to expand...
That article doesn’t say the Vatican is redirecting the Pope’s speech to be an attack on America. The Pope, himself, told us what the purpose of the speech was. See: Pope hopes that controversy will lead to dialogue
 
gilliam said:
That article doesn’t say the Vatican is redirecting the Pope’s speech to be an attack on America. The Pope, himself, told us what the purpose of the speech was. See: Pope hopes that controversy will lead to dialogue
Click to expand...
gilliam said:
“I chose the theme,” he said, "**of the relationship between faith and reason… **

…My intentions were quite otherwise: on the basis of what Manuel II subsequently said in a positive sense … concerning the reason that must guide us in transmitting the faith, I wished to explain that not religion and violence, **but religion and reason, go together." **

“The theme of my talk was, then, the relationship between faith and reason,” he added. "I wished to call for a dialogue of the Christian faith with the modern world and for dialogue between all cultures and religions."

212.77.1.245/news_services/press/vis/dinamiche/e1_en.htm
Click to expand...
Hello gilliam,

Is the Pope requesting dialog about “faith and reason” of the Muslim leaders in Sudan genociding 400,000+ people? Is the Pope talking about the “faith and reason” of religious Islamic leaders and Islamic national leaders failure to “dialog” with secular Western leaders as to the logic of Muslim leaders genociding hundreds of thousands of people in Sudan, blowing up people around the world and threatening a jihad of mass death against the Catholic Church? I think this may have been his theme to begin with.

I see a swing in the Church’s explination as to what the Pope was talking about in his speech. Now, after the Islamic terrorist threats against the Church, the Church is "offered to Islam “an outstretched hand” to Islam’s “battle against a secular global culture."” and now the Pope’s speech was all about "focused primarily on the religious shortcomings of the West."?

Can you see a difference between the Pope on 9/20/06 stateing that his focus in his letter was on dialoge and the relationship between faith and reason in religion to this new statement from the Vatican on 9/21/06 that the theme of his letter is “the pope’s talk focused primarily on the religious shortcomings of the West.” 400,000 dead from Muslim leader genocide and this is not part of the Pope’s concern for “dialog” “faith and reason” and “logic”? It is now all a problem of the (evil) secular West (America) accordding to this new article by Vatican leaders? You do not see a little apeasement to the militent Muslim world to avoid Catholic casualties.

BenedictXVI: ‘I am deeply sorry’VATICAN CITYBy John Thavis"Cardinal Paul Poupard, who heads the Vatican council that dialogues with Muslims, said a careful reading would show that the pope had offered to Islam “an outstretched hand” in the battle against a secular global culture."“Indeed it was (the pope) who, before the religious fervor of Muslim believers, warned secularized Western culture to guard against ‘the contempt for God and the cynicism that considers mockery of the sacred to be an exercise of freedom,’” Cardinal Bertone said."“Vatican spokesman Father Federico Lombardi said that while the papal speech contained a “clear and radical rejection of the religious motivation for violence,” it was not meant to be a critical assessment of Islam. On the contrary, Father Lombardi said, the pope’s talk focused primarily on the religious shortcomings of the West.”
 
I still don’t see in the article you linked to where it says “the Church redirected the Pope’s speech to be an attack on America not Islam”.

The Church hasn’t said such a thing and the article didn’t say it did. If you can quote in the article where it says “the Church redirected the Pope’s speech to be an attack on America not Islam”, please do. Otherwise it is time for another topic.
 
gilliam said:
I still don’t see in the article you linked to where it says “the Church redirected the Pope’s speech to be an attack on America not Islam”.

The Church hasn’t said such a thing and the article didn’t say it did. If you can quote in the article where it says “the Church redirected the Pope’s speech to be an attack on America not Islam”, please do. Otherwise it is time for another topic.
Click to expand...
Hello gilliam,

If the Church were going to redirect the Pope’s speech from talking about violence in Islam to agreeing with Islam that it is all Americas fault, do you think the Church would state that this is what they are doing?

Muslim leaders genociding hundreds of thousands in Sudan. Muslim religious leaders not condemning violence in the name of Alah. Islamic children being taught to kill the “infidels” in elementery schools. Muslim terrorists blowing up people around the world in the name of Allah. These are all good reasons for the Pope to ask for dialog with Muslim religious leaders to discuss violence and its relation within the Muslim religion.

Now, after terrorist threats of violence, death and a jhad, against the Catholic Church in retaliation for the Pope’s speech, the Vatican is claiming that the Pope’s speech was primarily directed at the secular West. This leads one to poll Catholics as to whether they feel that the original “theme” of the Pope’s speech was ("focused primarily on the religious shortcomings of the West.",) Was the Pope’s original theme in a speech asking for “dialog” and “logic” on “faith” on “religious violence” only directed at the “SECULAR” West?

Are we to believe that the Pope’s speech was (originally) all about evil President Bush and America’s war in Iraq only? The Pope, before the terrorist threats of a jihad angainst the Catholic Church, had no interest in dialog as to why the Muslim Sudanies government was genociding 400,000+ in Sudan? The Pope had no interest in the Muslim call to kill the infidels? The Pope had no interest in dialog in the lack of Muslim religious leaders to condemn violence in the name of Islam? The Pope (originally) saw no lack of “logic” in what the Muslim world is doing?

The Church is now claiming that the Pope’s speech was all about the evil America is committing seems far from what logic would tell a person his original intent from his speech was. If the Pope, to protect himself and Catholics from being killed, wants to bale out and leave confrontation of the evil violence, many in the Muslim world are doing, then state it this way. America has not backed down form the evil threat that Muslim terrorists have posed on the world. America is willing to stand strong and take the hits in order to stand with truth, justice and protection of the world. If the Pope has to turn and now "**offered to Islam “an outstretched hand” **to Islam’s "battle against a secular global culture in order to not suffer Catholic casualties from Muslim terrorists, we, regretably, understand. For the record, let us, as logical people, discuss and understand just what is taking place in the Vaticans understanding of the Pope’s speech and stand toward Muslim violence, in this article.

If the Pope is now backing away from confrontation of violence in Islam, due to fear of Catholic casualties from Islamic terrorists, do you really think he would state it this way?
 
Again:
  1. The article is not saying the Church redirected anything
  2. The Pope, himself, told us what the purpose of his talk was:
VATICAN CITY, SEP 20, 2006 (VIS) - …

“I chose the theme,” he said, "of the relationship between faith and reason. In order to introduce my audience to the dramatic nature and current importance of the subject, I quoted some words from a Christian-Muslim dialogue from the 14th century in which the Christian - the Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Paleologus - presented to his Muslim interlocutor, in a manner we find incomprehensibly brusque, the problem of the relationship between faith and violence.

"This quotation, unfortunately, has lent itself to misunderstandings. However, to an attentive reader of my text it is clear that in no way did I wish to make my own the negative words pronounced by the medieval emperor, and that their polemical content does not express my personal convictions. My intentions were quite otherwise: on the basis of what Manuel II subsequently said in a positive sense … concerning the reason that must guide us in transmitting the faith, I wished to explain that not religion and violence, but religion and reason, go together.

“The theme of my talk was, then, the relationship between faith and reason,” he added. "I wished to call for a dialogue of the Christian faith with the modern world and for dialogue between all cultures and religions. I hope that at various moments of my visit - when, for example, in Munich I underlined how it important it is to respect what is sacred for others - what emerged was my deep respect for all the great religions, and in particular for Muslims who ‘worship the one God,’ and with whom we are committed to promoting ‘peace, liberty, social justice and moral values for the benefit of all humanity.’

212.77.1.245/news_services/pr…iche/e1_en.htm
 
Church has redirected Papal message so as to avoid casualities. Perhaps a clarification that it was not intended to show disrepect to Islam would have been sufficient. But the Jehad or holy war propagated in the name of Islam has to be deprecated irrespective of its source and there is nothing objectionable in quoting Bizantine. If Bizantine felt so, the present day people are feeling in the same manner, but the frutification of the Christian faith, calls forth a dialogue even with the jehadis.
 
His Main point was the need for Faith and Reason to go together.

Your side points are both derived from the failure to do so.
 
Hello All,

I see that 50% of the voters see the Pope’s statement as an attack on the evil secular west and not discussing the relation of violence to Islam. Are there any statments from Catholic leaders condemning Islam’s relation to violence? I have some questions for these voters.

I myself can find no statements from the Pope condemning Islamic leaders of Sudan genociding 400,000+ people. Are there any? Should there be any?

The Islam world wants a massive violent jihad against the Catholic Church. Does the Pope see no evil in this?

Many Muslim children are taught to hate non-Muslims and taught to kill the ifidels. Does the Pope see no evil in this?

Muslim suicide terrorists are blowing up innocent civilians (women and children) around the world. Does the Pope see no evil in this?

If the Pope’s latest speech truly was targetted at the evil secular West, should the Pope now give a speech about the evils of the religious East?
 
I myself can find no statements from the Pope condemning Islamic leaders of Sudan genociding 400,000+ people. Are there any? Should there be any?
» Italy’s ANSA news service noted that the new pontiff has not hesitated to express himself on political issues, albeit diplomatically, with discretion. In addition to calling for peace in the Middle East, Iraq and the Darfur region of western Sudan - but what kind of pope wouldn’t call for peace, El País’s reporter wondered - Benedict noted that the time had come for “‘concord’ between the squabbling sides” in Italy’s recent national elections, which revealed sharply divided right-wing and leftist political camps. (Telegraph and Le Figaro) sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/category?blogid=15&cat=590
Click to expand...
The Islam world wants a massive violent jihad against the Catholic Church. Does the Pope see no evil in this? I believe that is a rhetorical question given the thread subject. He made his comment regarding Islam and violence versus reason. I think he made the point eloquently.

Many Muslim children are taught to hate non-Muslims and taught to kill the ifidels. Does the Pope see no evil in this? See previous answer…

Muslim suicide terrorists are blowing up innocent civilians (women and children) around the world. Does the Pope see no evil in this? See previous answer.

If the Pope’s latest speech truly was targetted at the evil secular West, should the Pope now give a speech about the evils of the religious East? I guess I just don’t understand what exactly it is that you’re asking that hasn’t been answered already. So I personally don’t understand how this question comes about given the Pope’s speech and other links of information provided by others to really show what the Pope “truly targeted”. :confused:
 
The article from the OP does not contain the information stated in the OP.

Case closed.
 
KathleenElsie said:
The article from the OP does not contain the information stated in the OP.

Case closed.
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Hello Kathleen Elsie,

This is not true. I will give paragraph numbers. Count the paragraphs starting from the first paragraph of the article. I do not think that CAF rules allow for me to paste the whole article.

Link: BenedictXVI: ‘I am deeply sorry’VATICAN CITY
By John Thavis(paragrah 10) “Cardinal Paul Poupard, who heads the Vatican council that dialogues with Muslims, said a careful reading would show that the pope had offered to Islam “an outstretched hand” in the battle against a secular global culture."(paragraph 9) “Indeed it was (the pope) who, before the religious fervor of Muslim believers, warned secularized Western culture to guard against 'the contempt for God and the cynicism that considers mockery of the sacred to be an exercise of freedom,’” Cardinal Bertone said.”(paragraph 7) "Vatican spokesman Father Federico Lombardi said that while the papal speech contained a “clear and radical rejection of the religious motivation for violence,” **it was not meant to be a critical assessment of Islam. **
(paragraph 8) On the contrary, Father Lombardi said, the pope’s talk focused primarily on the religious shortcomings of the West."
 
Steven_Merten said:
I myself can find no statements from the Pope condemning Islamic leaders of Sudan genociding 400,000+ people. Are there any? Should there be any?
Click to expand...
Why are you saying this? Are you knowingly bearing false witness?

Pope Benedict XVI said Monday “stronger international resolve” is needed to halt the bloodshed in Darfur.

“The horror of events unfolding in Darfur, to which my beloved predecessor Pope John Paul II referred on many occasions, points to the need for a stronger international resolve to ensure security and basic human rights,” Benedict XVI said.

Here is the Pope’s speech before a Sudanese delegation:

sudantribune.com/article_impr.php3?id_article=12792

The following is the text of the speech of the Pope before the Sudanese delegation

http://www.sudantribune.com/squelettes/puce.gif Your Eminence
http://www.sudantribune.com/squelettes/puce.gif Brother Bishops,
http://www.sudantribune.com/squelettes/puce.gif Distinguished Visitors,

It gives me great satisfaction to welcome you to the Vatican and through you to send heartfelt greetings to the people of your country. I very much appreciate the sentiments which have prompted your visit, and I wish to reassure you of my prayers and deep concern for the peaceful development of civil and ecclesial life in your nation.

The cessation of the civil war and the enactment of a new Constitution have brought hope to the long suffering people of Sudan. While there have been setbacks along the path of reconciliation, not least the tragic death of John Garang, there now exists an unprecedented opportunity and indeed duty for the Church to contribute significantly to the process of forgiveness and national reconstruction. Though a minority, Catholics have much to offer through inter-religious dialogue as well as the provision of greatly needed social services. I encourage you therefore to take the necessary initiatives to realize Christ’s healing presence in these ways.

The horror of events unfolding in Darfur, to which my beloved predecessor Pope John Paul II referred on many occasions, points to the need for a stronger international resolve to ensure security and basic human rights. Today, I add my voice to the cry of the suffering and assure you that the Holy See, together with the Apostolic Nuncio in Khartoum, will continue to do everything possible to end the cycle of violence and misery.

Dear friends, upon you and your people I invoke God’s blessings of wisdom, fortitude and peace!
 
Your question was, is the Pope redirecting his focus away from Islam and against the secular West? This has already been answered. He addressed the problems of a secular West and the coming of Islam to Europe well before he was even Pontiff.

Haven’t you seen this book (published well before the Regensburg speech)?

**Without Roots: The West, Relativism, Christianity, Islam **

Book Description

Pope Benedict XVI joins the President of the Italian Senate to offer a provocative critique of the spiritual, cultural, and political crisis afflicting the West

On May 12, 2004, Pope Benedict XVI–then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger–addressed the Italian Senate on the state of the West; the very same day, Joseph Pera, President of the Italian Senate, spoke before the Lateran College of the Papal University. Together they **called upon the West to confront the spiritual, cultural, and political malaise **that have afflicted it in the earliest years of the 21st century. In the months that ensued, before Cardinal Ratzinger’s election to the papacy, they developed their ideas into the eloquent dialogue that is Without Roots – a book that quickly became an Italian bestseller and is even more timely today than ever.

With Europe shaken by the war in Iraq, terrorism, security, Israel, relations with the U.S., immigration, and the rejection of the EU constitution in both France and the Netherlands, the issue of European identity has profound implications for the rest of the world. Bringing together their unique vantage points as leaders of Church and State, Pope Benedict XVI and Pera challenge us to imagine what can be the future of a civilization that has abandoned its history for a relativist secularism. They call on the West to embrace a spiritual rather than political renewal-and to accept the moral beliefs that alone can help us to make sense of changes in technology, economics, and society.

amazon.com/Without-Roots-Relativism-Christianity-Islam/dp/0465006345
 
References to the problem. No references to a known and deliberate redirection to the West.
 
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