Has the EF become a first-world luxury?

[ProVobis]

Most probably have never heard Latin, as the generation before Vat. II is mostly gone now, and the education is very basic. And I think that is the way it is in most third world countries.

I hear a lot of foreign countries teach kids multiple languages, giving them an advantage over most American kids, who barely know one language. And FWIW as of today, the followers of the Pope’s Latin twitter account are at a 215K level. I wouldn’t say Latin is dead dead yet.

 

[GangGreen]

Many people in SA come from European descent. I wouldn’t say that there’s no ability to grow there. Also, the Church has been in South America for many generations. I really don’t see it being much different than North America.

No one knows how the climate there is for the EF. If the bishops and priests don’t embrace it, then it’s not easy for it to thrive. The EF has been a bottom’s up movement. It’s been laity and diocesan priests who are pushing to get it into their churches. In a way, this means that the laity need to have the resources to band together and get these types of masses in their area. This is of course easier in more well off countries where the laity are more likely to have the resources. Even if they are successful, in most instances the EF is put in as a Mass that’s set for a time where many people won’t go. In the afternoon, early morning, etc. To say that the EF has been widely accepted and embraced by clergy even in NA and EU is a very very large stretch, because it hasn’t. It still has great resistance even in these places.

A priest who even wants to say the OF ad orientem and using a high altar has to jump through hoops. I know this to be a fact. I’ve had a young priest tell me that if he wanted to do these things they would never let him unless people specifically ask for it.

Also, when people say that “no one wants it” who is it that doesn’t want it? Is it the middle aged person, who is the vast majority in most churches, and has invested years and years into the OF and doesn’t want change? Is it the younger person who has no idea what the EF or even a traditional OF looks like? Is it the senior who grew up with the EF but even if they want it back maybe doesn’t have the ability or resources to push for it? There are still many forces working against the EF and traditional liturgy in general even post-Summorum Pontificium. The traditional liturgy is still not something that’s been embraced in the Church and it’s a shame.

 

[Denise1957]

Came across this index which lists EF Masses worldwide
honneurs.free.fr/Wikini/wakka.php?wiki=PagePrincipalEn

I’ve also tried combing the official websites of FSSP, SSPX and other traditionalist groups to find their locations worldwide.
fssp.org/en/messes.htm
sspxasia.com

Obviously while not fully comprehensive it shows some patterns.

• Most of the places where EF Masses are held regularly (weekly or daily) listed above are in developed countries.
• In most developing countries or countries with a small Catholic population, EF masses are offered only occasionally (montly or more).

What do you guys think??? I think its pretty shocking that in developing countries, there is a stark deficiency in this regard. Why is this so??? Does it cost that much more to offer EF Masses???

I think that the impetus to keep the Old Mass going began in Europe, so it’s not so prevelant in developing counties - yet. But the FSSP does have a strong apostolate going in Columbia. Here’s a link:

remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/144-traditional-catholic-mission-in-south-america-going-strong

 

[CB_Catholic]

I hear a lot of foreign countries teach kids multiple languages, giving them an advantage over most American kids, who barely know one language. And FWIW as of today, the followers of the Pope’s Latin twitter account are at a 215K level. I wouldn’t say Latin is dead dead yet.

You know, I was talking about third-world countries where the children are lucky to even learn to read and write in their own languages and often can’t even graduate from high school because parents can’t afford to send them to school. They are receiving a basic education to lift them out of poverty and enable them to be self-suficient and not starve to death. The Pope’s Twitter account is irrelevant here. I understand you love the EF and Latin, but we need to be realistic here. I have nothing against the EF, but we can’t be pie-in-the sky about it’s use. What is, is.

 

[ProVobis]

I have nothing against the EF, but we can’t be pie-in-the sky about it’s use.

Nothing pie-in-the-sky about it. Per your own examples, there is a little bit of work involved in understanding something that is foreign to you, be it a language or even an Eastern rite; that goes without saying. In the end, it is hoped that you will come out a more informed person. I doubt if God gives extra-credit for learning something you already know.

 

[YoungTradCath]

The ICRSS has apostolates in Africa.

 

[CB_Catholic]

Nothing pie-in-the-sky about it. Per your own examples, there is a little bit of work involved in understanding something that is foreign to you, be it a language or even an Eastern rite; that goes without saying. In the end, it is hoped that you will come out a more informed person. I doubt if God gives extra-credit for learning something you already know.

You have totally lost me here, in relation to the topic at hand, which is “Has the EF become a first world luxury?” I don’t know what you are trying to say. I am discussing third-world countries and the EF and some reasons why it probably hasn’t taken a foothold in these countries. I don’t know what you are discussing. I’m trying to answer the question with what the reality is at the present time. You are trying to answer with what you would like it to be, which is not the point of the question. I am not biased against the EF and the use of Latin–I just think we need to see things as they presently are when answering the question. This is not a pitch for the vernacular or an EF vs OF debate.

 

[codefro]

I am saddened to hear of the lack of strength of the Church in India, a country of great culture and future promise. We should pray for India and Australia both in need of mission work. But alas, where are the mission troops of old.

In the mirror…

 

[ealfred]

I think there are 2 reasons why the EF is not offered

1. Priests do not speak Latin, so they cannot celebrate mass in this form
2. People are not aware of what EF is and probably will never attend one.

 

[RPRPsych]

In the mirror…

Touche!

In all fairness, unless the Church suddenly recruits married priests, the guy in my mirror isn’t quite eligible. But I agree, we can evangelize in different ways. Now to find an idea…

 

[codefro]

Touche!

In all fairness, unless the Church suddenly recruits married priests, the guy in my mirror isn’t quite eligible. But I agree, we can evangelize in different ways. Now to find an idea…

I always thought it would be funny to dress like Mormon missionaries and ride bikes and then talk about Catholicism- it would throw them off and they might get a kick out of it (breaking the ice).

 

[RPRPsych]

I always thought it would be funny to dress like Mormon missionaries and ride bikes and then talk about Catholicism- it would throw them off and they might get a kick out of it (breaking the ice).

Hey, I should try that! I actually have a felt hat like the ones worn by Mormon missionaries.

 

[robwar]

Do you think it’s likely that the people just aren’t interested? Not only here, but around the world?

We have a Latin Mass parish in our city, and it has a nice crowd and is fairly full. But it’s not packed by a long shot. The OF parish Masses (at least on Sundays) are packed. Nothing hostile against the EF or traditional Catholicism–it’s just that people aren’t interested. They like Mass in their own language.

I think that Protestant missionary work probably has a lot of influence on why people in 3rd world countries aren’t interested in Catholicism or a Mass in a different language than their own. RPRPsych hinted at it in their excellent post. This is a link to an interesting (and fairly long) article about Protestant missionary work in other countries: christianitytoday.com/ct/2014/january-february/world-missionaries-made.html WARNING–this article will be upsetting to many Catholics. I found it upsetting, and I’m a convert from Protestantism.

This is it. People are not as interested as those who want EF Mass for everyone all the time. Most of these places are missionary territory and it is just enough to teach and spread the faith, let alone conduct the Mass in Latin and have new converts try to learn the Latin on top of learning the basics of the faith.

 

[Denise1957]

This is it. People are not as interested as those who want EF Mass for everyone all the time. Most of these places are missionary territory and it is just enough to teach and spread the faith, let alone conduct the Mass in Latin and have new converts try to learn the Latin on top of learning the basics of the faith.

Just my two cents here. I think that those who want the EF for everyone all of the time are a minority, since it isn’t practical or reasonable to want this.

However, regarding new converts having to learn Latin - well - it isn’t necessary for a cradle Catholic or new convert to learn Latin in order to assist (attend) the EF. I converted through the EF, but did not have to learn Latin. Eventually, anyone who attends the EF long enough will learn the Latin responses (that the laity say at Mass) and what they mean in English. Children can do this quite easily if they are taught.

I try to keep in mind that even though the poorer countries cannot, for the most part, put the time and effort into organizing an EF in their community, pretty much all of those communities at one time only had the EF. It wasn’t a choice, it was just the Mass that the Church provided and expected all Catholics to attend. It wasn’t about personal preference back then as it is now. And quite a few saints were formed who attended the EF, even those saints who were from very poor families, such as St. Bernadette.

 

[curlycool89]

Exposure could be a remote reason, but just look at huge Catholic dominant countries like Brazil and Philippines, the number of parishes that celebrate EF regularly is comparatively smaller than in other countries in Europe, and North America. These are countries with centuries of Catholic history and tradition.

Well, I guess I’ll be frank. It’s probably because they just don’t care.

Let’s talk about evangelization. Primarily, the principle of enculturation that was started by St. Francis Xavier (and done very well in China by Servant of God Matteo Ricci). The principle that was established by St. Francis was that when you take Christ to other parts of the world, you take Christ and not Western European culture. Let me repeat that one more time for clarity: Catholic does not equal Western European, be it Italian, French, Spanish, Portuguese, ect.

Now this part is going to get me some flack, but it also has to be said: The EF is a product of Western European culture. The language (Latin) is inherently linked with Western Europe. The ritual comes out of a very Western European-Baroque mindset.

The other thing is that the EF is very rigid, by design. The problem, as I mentioned above, is that evangelization does not necessitate the importation of Western European culture (Vatican II even spoke about this I believe in Ad Gentes). The EF may be seen in many Southern nations as an old relic of colonialism. On the other hand, the OF Mass, by design, is more adaptable and therefore can make use of the principle of enculturation.

 

[otjm]

My mother is now 97, which is another way of saying she was born in 1917. She attended Mass as she knew it for 52 years, before the OF was introduced.

About 10 or 15 years ago I asked her what she thought was the most important change coming out of Vatican 2.

This is a woman who had a high school education in a rural community, with a graduating class of 5.

Her immediate answer was “The Mass in English!”

I had an experience taking a group of RCIA candidates to the OF Mass said in Latin, with a choir that was world class, singing Palestrina. The Mass was about a 20 to 25 minute drive for them (we are in a suburb of Portland) and there was about a half hour after the Mass of “Oohs” and “Aahs”. The consensus was that it was fabulous.

Not one of them in the next three years had attended one more there.

I have yet to see reports of attendance at EF Masses of much more than 150 to maybe an occasional 250. The “demand” is at best scattered, with a few here, a few there. There is a persistent comment to the effect that if it was just offered in each parish, the result would be overwhelming. The evidence is to the contrary.

People are not sophisticated about rubrics; they are not sophisticated about the prayers said in the Mass (either one); but they vote overwhelmingly for the vernacular.

The comments about the EF being a strongly European driven form has a lot to say for it. While there may be strong cultural differences between European countries, that doesn’t begin to compare to the differences between European culture and third world cultures.

I doubt the EF is going to go away; but it helps to re-read the comment Benedict made concerning his view - that the EF will remain favored by a minority. And if one looks at the world Church, it will most likely be a small minority in Europe and the US. Elsewhere, it is a non-issue and a non-starter.

 

[twf]

The Personal Apostolic Administration of St. John Vianney in Campos, Brazil is an obvious exception, as priests of the Administration, as I understand it, celebrate the EF exclusively. The Administration’s bishop, the Most Rev. Fernando Areas Rifan, may be the only Catholic bishop in good standing in the world who only celebrates the EF?

 

[GangGreen]

I’m honestly not sure why it really truly matters what the laity think about the Mass. Why should the laity be responsible for the actions of the Church? Our job should be to follow Christ and his Church. The laity have no power in the Church. It is the Bishops, the successors of the Apostles, whose responsibility it is to lead the Church and the faithful and to uphold the teachings and traditions of the Church.

Why does it matter if the world hates the Mass? The world hates Christ and his Church, so it’s only natural that they would hate the Mass and especially the one which is so radically different than the Masses of the heretic Protestant churches. That the world and maybe even so many Catholics should hate such a Mass should not be of concern to the Church. In fact, maybe it’s a good thing. The concern should be does the Mass present a sacrifice on the altar, one that is central to the entire Mass? Does it enrich the faith and spiritual lives of the faithful? Does it honor God and put God at the center of everything? Does it allow for Orthodox teaching? Does it present the highest amount of reverence possible to God and the most Blessed Sacrament? Is it fruitful?

The OF in its current state goes against everything that Vatican II said should occur. The OF in its current state goes against the history and tradition of the Church and the evolution of the Mass through the ages. Are these things not important to the various folks who applaud the vernacular, communion in the hand, the destruction of church architecture, art, and music, the ignoring of the realities of sin and hell, the preaching of the unorthodox, the radical ecumenism that pretty much tells people that they can be saved regardless of their beliefs, and the general abuses coming from the clergy?

Are these things not important to those who see the general indifference among the laity to all of these things? The fact that a scary amount of Catholics DO NOT believe in the Real Presence? That a scary amount of Catholics DO NOT go to Church every Sunday? That a scary amount of Catholics are in apostasy and believe in things that go 100% against the teachings of the Church? These are not opinions, they are facts. Does this not tell us that the status quo is not good enough? That maybe, while you like the vernacular and the happy Masses that never challenge, that these things are maybe hurting the Church and that every single day we are losing souls to the devil? That all of the **uncalled **for reforms of the post-VII era have led more souls away from the Church than to it? The Church created by Jesus Christ himself of which there is no other means of salvation.

Why is this destruction applauded by people who are faithful Catholics, who go to Mass every Sunday or even every day and pray and love our Lord? Do you not worry about the salvation of others?

I just don’t get it. I struggle to find the fruits OF over the past 50 years.

 

[ProVobis]

Are these things not important to those who see the general indifference among the laity to all of these things? The fact that a scary amount of Catholics DO NOT believe in the Real Presence? That a scary amount of Catholics DO NOT go to Church every Sunday? That a scary amount of Catholics are in apostasy and believe in things that go 100% against the teachings of the Church? These are not opinions, they are facts. Does this not tell us that the status quo is not good enough? That maybe, while you like the vernacular and the happy Masses that never challenge, that these things are maybe hurting the Church and that every single day we are losing souls to the devil? That all of the **uncalled **for reforms of the post-VII era have led more souls away from the Church than to it? The Church created by Jesus Christ himself of which there is no other means of salvation.

Why is this destruction applauded by people who are faithful Catholics, who go to Mass every Sunday or even every day and pray and love our Lord? Do you not worry about the salvation of others?

I just don’t get it. I struggle to find the fruits OF over the past 50 years.

To be fair Catholics have been leaving since Mass reforms were started after WWII. (Yes, even the 62 Missal is part of those reforms.) It just became more noticeable after VII, even before the OF. Since then the numbers in religious orders have declined severely, many Catholic schools have been closing, and young people have virtually stopped going altogether. I heard less than 5% of those under 30 attend regularly.

 

[OraLabora]

The OF in its current state goes against everything that Vatican II said should occur.

No, it doesn’t.

The OF in its current state goes against the history and tradition of the Church and the evolution of the Mass through the ages. Are these things not important to the various folks who applaud the vernacular, communion in the hand, the destruction of church architecture, art, and music, the ignoring of the realities of sin and hell, the preaching of the unorthodox, the radical ecumenism that pretty much tells people that they can be saved regardless of their beliefs, and the general abuses coming from the clergy?

None of this has to do with the form of the Mass. If you attended Mass in the OF at any Benedictine abbey of the Solesmes Congregation, and in many other congregations as well (a good example, Monte Cassino abbey in Italy), you would clearly recognize it as Catholic and in line with the history and traditions of the Church: the Propers and Ordinary will be from the Graduale Romanum, all chants going as far back as the 10th century and in most places a cappella. There will be incense at appropriate times (Sundays, feasts), pipe organ only. It will all be very reverent. Why? Because Benedictines take their vow of obedience very, very seriously. I also sing in a Gregorian schola that rotates around various parishes, and the vast majority of Masses we sing at are done simply, reverently and with care and they are always grateful to have a skilled schola to (licitly and validly I would add) acquaint them with the ancient traditional music of the Church. Yes there are some problem spots.

But these problems you point out and that I have also occasionally run into are issues of discipline, not the form of the Mass. If the EF were exclusive, the same lack of obedience will prevail. It’s a product of our times to “do our own thing”. There’s no assurance that the same clergy that disregard the rubrics of the OF Mass would be any more disciplined if they were obliged to say the EF Mass.

Backing up a bit, you opened with the statement below which is perhaps the most disturbing statement you made:

I’m honestly not sure why it really truly matters what the laity think about the Mass. Why should the laity be responsible for the actions of the Church? Our job should be to follow Christ and his Church. The laity have no power in the Church. It is the Bishops, the successors of the Apostles, whose responsibility it is to lead the Church and the faithful and to uphold the teachings and traditions of the Church.

Why does it matter if the world hates the Mass? The world hates Christ and his Church, so it’s only natural that they would hate the Mass and especially the one which is so radically different than the Masses of the heretic Protestant churches. That the world and maybe even so many Catholics should hate such a Mass should not be of concern to the Church.

It most certainly does matter what the world thinks of the Mass. Our main purpose on life is to serve and love God with all our hearts, and that includes the duty to evangelize, and grow the Church, not to turn people away and not to worship the worship. Cultural imperialism doesn’t win too many souls these days, in case you hadn’t noticed.

The EF may indeed gain souls perhaps for the reasons you cite. But not everyone, everywhere. In particular in mission territories (I would in fact argue that Western Europe and North America are now mission territories, perhaps even more so than Africa, but I digress) where Latin mixed with uneducated, often illiterate laity, would be an obstacle.

Our purpose as Christians is not to create a small nucleus of euro-centric Catholics and everyone else be damned. Our purpose is to go out and spread the Good News and convert people to Christ. The Mass is supposed to serve that purpose, to be an instrument for the obtaining of Grace and an instrument of our salvation, not the other way around.

In any case I would be careful with your statements, the rules here prohibit pitting one form of the Mass against the other and it would be sad to see this discussion descend into another EF vs OF battle. Both forms are valid: Roma locuta est; causa finita est.