Has the #MeToo movement become a witch-hunt to a significant degree?

[Theo520]

@Bruised_Reed
Then let them lie as red herrings, they must not be directly related to the OP and subsequent discussion about clearly defining consent.

It’s nothing special to argue that previous standards of consent were not matching between both the sexes, and different groups and individuals.

Edit - I wasn’t sealioning (had to google it), I honestly felt that throwing in those acronyms was a red herring from the discussion, or maybe a subtle ad hominem at somebody with similar views.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

You don’t want to know about people like this? You’d be satisfied with a very condensed definition rather than one well researched yourself? You don’t want to get examples from the horse’s mouth?

 

[F_Marturana]

Let’s assume that every long-term poster with historically consistent views actually means the stuff that they say.

I am going to do you the favor of assuming you mean what you say, and I’d like you to do the rest of us the favor of assuming that we mean what we say, rather than that we are voicing views we don’t really hold to impress third parties who aren’t reading this.

I’m giving up CAF for Lent, but I did just wanted to pop in and say I strongly agree.

 

[Theo520]

You don’t want to know about people like this? You’d be satisfied with a very condensed definition rather than one well researched yourself? You don’t want to get examples from the horse’s mouth?

If their viewpoint has relevance to the thead, someone can make their case, but without labels. Throwing labels at a view is trying to dismiss it’s relevance.

Made Up Example: maybe demanding ‘equal enthusiasm’ as consent is a view often expressed by radical feminists. It would be darn rude of me to dismiss it using that label as my reason. I can explain why it’s a bad concept without inserting an ad hominem.

 

[Xantippe]

Made Up Example: maybe demanding ‘equal enthusiasm’ as consent is a view often expressed by radical feminists. It would be darn rude of me to dismiss it using that label as my reason. I can explain why it’s a bad concept without inserting an ad hominem.

I’ve enjoyed our discussion, but I do have to point out that “equal enthusiasm” is your term, not one that anybody else has been using.

I also agree with Bruised Reed about using google, and would add that you ought to google the difference between “hookup” and “pickup,” which are not the same thing at all. If you look up “pickup” you’ll find it easier to follow the understand the discussion.

Come to think of it, if StarshipTrooper is still around, he’s a Red Pill guy–he ought to be able to show you around.

 

[Lea101]

I’m actually thinking of the time the poster said that a 25 year old pursuing a 16 year old is completely fine. Not saying he should be arrested, but he should not whine if people doubt his character.

 

[Theo520]

@Xantippe
I think maybe I’ve kept it included as an example of unrealistic expectations being proposed, and as the opposite of my wish for our culture - that we increase the clarity around what is consent.

 

[Xantippe]

I think maybe I’ve kept it included as an example of unrealistic expectations being proposed, and as the opposite of my wish for our culture - that we increase the clarity around what is consent.

I don’t think you understood the text you were trying to paraphrase. I don’t think they used the term “equal enthusiasm,” even in the snip you (or somebody) gave. It was about paying equal attention to the other person’s pleasure and well being, which is different from expecting equal enthusiasm.

 

[Xantippe]

I’m actually thinking of the time the poster said that a 25 year old pursuing a 16 year old is completely fine. Not saying he should be arrested, but he should not whine if people doubt his character.

Right.

Sorry, not sorry, I’m going to think bad things about that guy.

 

[Lea101]

Frankly, if you want my advice. It’s time for men to start taking women literally when it comes to stuff like this. If they want to play hard to get, that’s their problem. Just walk away. If they are one of those women that are like ‘when I say go away, I want you to stay’, walk away. Women in general need to stop with that crap, and communicate properly with people who can’t read their minds. So yeah, better to not persist imo. Like what Xan said, better to be safe than sorry.

 

[Theo520]

I don’t think you understood the text you were trying to paraphrase. I don’t think they used the term “equal enthusiasm,” even in the snip you gave. It was about paying equal attention to the other person’s pleasure and well being, which is different from expecting equal enthusiasm.

Back at ya, I don’t think you understood it.

Our disagreement just serves to illustrate my point, that it’s awful verbiage to introduce when you are trying to clearly define consent between two strangers.

 

[Xantippe]

Frankly, if you want my advice. It’s time for men to start taking women literally when it comes to stuff like this. If they want to play hard to get, that’s their problem. Just walk away. If they are one of those women that are like ‘when I say go away, I want you to stay’, walk away. Women in general need to stop with that crap, and communicate properly with people who can’t read their minds. So yeah, better to not persist imo. Like what Xan said, better to be safe than sorry.

Right. Why sign up for a trip down the rabbit hole with somebody who doesn’t say what she means?

 

[SuperLuigi]

Frankly, if you want my advice. It’s time for men to start taking women literally when it comes to stuff like this. If they want to play hard to get, that’s their problem.

I think its better if it comes from women instead of from me.

rather than that we are voicing views we don’t really hold to impress third parties who aren’t reading this.

Please bear in mind that a number of people participating in this thread are victims of sexual abuse or rape, so that for many of us, we have concrete experience of the stuff we are talking and it’s not just an academic exercise.

Being a victim of rape does not entitle you to special moral authority nor does it give you a dispensation to do things like break forum rules.

Furthermore, if anyone discusses it publicly, criticism of the experience and everything and everyone around it is fair game.

PS—it’s not just women who are the victims of rape.

 

[SuperLuigi]

I’m actually thinking of the time the poster said that a 25 year old pursuing a 16 year old is completely fine. Not saying he should be arrested, but he should not whine if people doubt his character.

It depends on the cultural context and legality. It used to be okay for that to happen. The issue sometimes is people taking today’s standards and applying it to yesteryear.

Today, that would be a problem. Even in places where the age of consent is 16, if there is a power dynamic, the legality may not be favorable.

I

 

[Lea101]

We were talking about today’s context. There are people who only focus on what’s legal vs not instead of trying to not manipulate people in general, which was what DarkLight was trying to say.

 

[Lea101]

I don’t think that’s what she’s trying to say if you look at what post she is replying. We are basically saying what we really feel, not to appease random feminists here. Like…I’m pro life. Nothing I say will make them like me, lol.

And because some of them here have been victims, it’s not just some fun discussion about the issue. They have given real experiences only to be met with ‘well I haven’t experienced this so…’

They’re giving real experiences only to end up talking about hypothetical ones instead.

 

[DarkLight]

We were talking about today’s context. There are people who only focus on what’s legal vs not instead of trying to not manipulate people in general, which was what DarkLight was trying to say.

Yeah. And “well it was legal” doesn’t exactly give you some sort of moral high ground. Legality is the bare minimum standard. There’s lots of ways to be a scumbag that are still legal.

 

[DarkLight]

I said pickup, not hookup. What you see a lot of is guys assuming that they can retrofit PUA or Red Pill advice to achieve “success” with women, and that the techniques will work just as well to find a virgin trad Catholic bride as to pick up a one night stand. Of course, this is absolutely risible and I try to talk these guys out of the idea, but it’s a Sisyphean task.

That’s definitely a point. Even as a fairly “liberal” Catholic around here, I certainly have standards beyond whether a man is rich and attractive. I’m not going to be baited into sex outside of marriage no matter what a guy tries, and I’m not going to be interested in marrying a guy who doesn’t at least share my own values. But I’ve had a lot of guys who seem to think every woman is essentially a prostitute, or at least willing to fall all over herself for the right hot guy.

 

[Xantippe]

Our disagreement just serves to illustrate my point, that it’s awful verbiage to introduce when you are trying to clearly define consent between two strangers.

But that’s the point–nobody but yourself was introducing the term “equal enthusiasm.”

 

[Theo520]

But that’s the point–nobody but yourself was introducing the term “equal enthusiasm.”

I’m probably the only one who read your link
How would you distill down the quoted paragraph on enthusiasm?