Has the #MeToo movement become a witch-hunt to a significant degree?

[Lea101]

You have to understand the entire idea of “consent” simply wasn’t present in the same way. No one would have put it that way.

My experience was somewhat the same. We were told not to wear shorts or tank tops etc because men will harass you. So us modern girls kind of laugh at the idea. After all, we are growing up in an era where it’s common attire. And then when we wear shorts and get harassed by some dude, we then try to make sense of it and the conclusion could be our attire. Then some of us get too scared to say anything to our fathers because we don’t want to hear a ‘told you so’. Which is very common here. Maybe it’s an Asian thing, lol. Even when we fall down, or get sick, our parents will scream ‘I told you not to _____’ before showing any concern. I was in a car accident and I got yelled at by my dad even before he brought me to the hospital. Yikes. That’s how they express concern…maybe?

(this is just a weird rather cultural thing I guess. My friends of the same race have similar experiences with their dads).

So yeah. we don’t seriously think our clothes provide consent but when something happens, we try to process the experience and that’s when the whole victim blaming thing takes place.

It’s pretty dumb to think that either conservative or secular culture is ideal and would solve all of these problems. Both have serious issues they need to work on (conservative=biases against women, secular=lack of clarity, for once.)

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

Did you see a part of his talk where he compared a woman dressing immodestly to a man purposefully leading a girl on I think he’s great in chastity talks in general but that part was sooo off.

The older I get, the more disenchanted I become with his stuff. Too many naive generalizations.

 

[Werbenjagermanjensen]

Have you ever been catcalled?

I am a white cis male. I don’t qualify to compete in any victimhood Olympics. So no, I’ve never been harassed on the street, and don’t know much about oppression being unable to experience it. But I do know jerks. And I mean no disrespect to anyone, but the men who catcall are simply jerks. They’re jerks now, and they’ve always been jerks. And the only thing that’s going to change is that they’re going to grow to be even bigger jerks. Maybe have some jerky kids along the way. Don’t get offended, get tougher. That’s all that’s within your control.

 

[Lea101]

It’s too romanticised with cliche anecdotes and missrepresented studies imo. If we are looking at ‘chastity’ speakers, I prefer Matt Fradd, though he talks about porn not sex in general. But Jason has been very successful with young teens and that’s very good.

 

[Xantippe]

I also decry feel-good do-nothing half-measures like #metoo.

I have to say I’m very happy with the results so far. A lot of bad people are no longer in a position to abuse their power.

In this society? There are a few options, but many are off the table. Welcome to the real world. My suggestion was revolutionary change in the way men and women view themselves and act in society.

Well, that’s helpful.

“You’ve refused to tell me how to stand in a fire and not risk being burned!”

Eh, so being a woman in contemporary society is like standing in a fire and there’s no escape from it?

That would be extremely prudent, especially since every last one of you claims to have been the victim of sexual misbehavior at some point in your life. If it makes you feel any better, I generally work under the assumption that people are potentially threats until I know them well.

The first bit was in response to DL saying, “suggest a responsible woman ought to consider any man she’s alone with as a threat.”

A small problem: the perp may well be a guy that you think you know pretty well, for example, your boyfriend of some months. (I believe it was around 5+ months into our acquaintance before my college boyfriend assaulted me–I was very surprised.)

Where is the cut-off point where a woman can stop treating a boyfriend like a rapist?

 

[ChunkMonk]

I have to say I’m very happy with the results so far. A lot of bad people are no longer in a position to abuse their power.

Drops in an ocean.

Well, that’s helpful.

Have a nice day.

Eh, so being a woman in contemporary society is like standing in a fire and there’s no escape from it?

Every single one of you was “assaulted”. Your own claims support my argument.

A small problem: the perp may well be a guy that you think you know pretty well,

You thought wrong, obviously.

Where is the cut-off point where a woma

Where is the cut-off point where you address what I actually said instead of making stuff up?

 

[Xantippe]

One of the big red flags in my friendship was when when my buddy said his friends were telling him to beat me down and rob me so I would start buying him stuff. Now it may soind stupid, but I was only 19.

Come on… It’s like you want me to think women need to be controlled. I hear this stuff all the time and it’a mind-boggling how a 10 year old me apparently had more common sense than a grown woman…

Now that I think of it, the conversation was in Russian and I was probably mostly thinking, “cool, I know that word!” and “cool, I’m speaking fluent Russian!” Plus, in Russian, the etymology is “force,” so it doesn’t necessarily sound as harsh and criminal as “rape” does in English. We’d also been seeing each other at least several months at the time, so it sounded like just some weird thing his friend said. Plus, I fully expected men to be like that–after all, that’s exactly what Camille Paglia said in the newspaper article my dad gave me to read. 1990s me thought that all men were at least a little rape-y.

You’re quite correct that a guy mentioning doing something bad out of the blue (even if he says, “I would never do such and such bad thing”) is a really bad sign–but I hadn’t read “The Gift of Fear” at that point.

Also, bear in mind that there’s a lot of sexing up of rape in popular culture (see, for example, FSOG). To the inexperienced ear, something like that may actually sound (blech!) romantic–a sign of how deep and meaningful the other person’s passion is. (There was a lot of talk about no means no in the press at the time, and a lot of talk about how sometimes no really means yes and how it wrecks the moment to pay attention to “no”. Yes, people really said that stuff.)

Nowadays, all I see is the selfishness and immaturity of people who don’t care about consent, and I’m like RUN AWAY whenever I ever hear anything similar on CAF, but at the time I didn’t see the significance. I had also only started dating half a year ago when I met college boyfriend.

 

[Xantippe]

Wait… Wait… Wait. You were taught that men are not in control of their sexuality and that they are all trying to get into your pants and that even being alone with them qualifies as consent… But you also thought that looking for warning signs was feminist nonsense?

Yes, that’s the point–it’s a dangerous, unfair and incoherent view, but when you’re a young person and pretty new to adulting, you don’t necessarily notice the contradictions between your different beliefs.

See also the hockey model of dating that I’ve described a few times, or the man-the-beast/wifely submission view.

 

[ChunkMonk]

Oh a Russian. Well there’s your first mistake. I kid, but seriously, American women (especially young ones) really underestimate how well they are treated by American men.

Some women like a man to be a little rape-y. Can’t explain it myself, don’t much like the idea of it (being of a gentle nature as I am) but there it is. I guess if you meet a lot of girls who like to be “convinced” you might grow accustomed to it. End up meeting one who likes to be heard and suddenly it’s a hashtag and you’re cleaning out your desk. It’s hard being a dirtbag these days. You’re too safe for some girls and way too dangerous for others. My advice for the boys? Play it safe.

I wonder how much dating experience man needs before he loses the “I didn’t know!” Excuse?

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

I kid, but seriously, American women (especially young ones) really underestimate how well they are treated by American men.

There is a grain of truth to that. Doesn’t mean we Americans don’t have our own issues, or that there isn’t room for improvement.

 

[ChunkMonk]

I’m a rape-victim shamer, why do you care what I think? You already know what I think, you got me all figured out. Just take the worst thing you can think of and imagine I said it and save us both some time.

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

I’m a rape-victim shamer

I commend you on your transparency.

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

Also, you never did say how old you are. I’m still curious.

 

[ChunkMonk]

Not that it matters even slightly, but since you asked so nicely, I’m almost 28.

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

Not that it matters even slightly, but since you asked so nicely, I’m almost 28.

Hmm.

(pumpernickel)

 

[Xantippe]

I’m going to risk the fallout and say she never believed any of that. My evidence is that her actions in the story don’t match with that belief.

Eh, the problem is that the guidelines aren’t actually realistic to follow as a system(unless you’re a Duggar), so if anything bad happens, it’s always possible to find some sort of failure by the woman (or create some ex post facto rule that she allegedly violated–like the Christendom story). Meanwhile, as I’ve pointed out, it’s possible to ignore a lot of those rules and do OK–if the person you’re with is safe.

With all those subtle cues you picked up, you seem to be omitting the lesson that any premarital sex was a sin for both man and women.

Here’s the fun part! Premarital sex is BAD–but it’s 100% women’s responsibility to make sure it doesn’t happen and it’s simply to be expected that men will take whatever they can get.

You really don’t need to look very hard to find people (including on CAF) who think that. I’ve seen at least one CAFer who was making the argument that women are the “gatekeepers of sex.”

Of course, throw in rape as an option, and that’s pretty nonsensical.

Personally, considering the fact that it’s women who want a solution, I would just make the prudential suggestion that they learn to speak men’s language rather than stamp their feet at men not learning women’s language.

Watch the tea and consent video. That’s pretty clear.

Every single one of you was “assaulted”. Your own claims support my argument.

It’s not a surprise that women who have been harassed or sexually assaulted are disproportionately participating on the MeToo thread.

Oh a Russian. Well there’s your first mistake. I kid, but seriously, American women (especially young ones) really underestimate how well they are treated by American men.

I wouldn’t know, because no American guy has asked me out since 7th grade. As a legal adult, I’ve never so much as had a non-platonic cup of coffee with an American. I’m married to an Eastern European immigrant. If I had waited for an American to ask me out, I’d probably still be waiting.

I wonder how much dating experience man needs before he loses the “I didn’t know!” Excuse?

I believe it’s possible to keep doing it right up until the women start comparing notes.

 

[Xantippe]

Yes, it is a learning opportunity if you do something with one expectation and get an undesirable outcome.

Smart people learn from their mistakes, even if the other party broke the law.

One of my kids got hit by a truck in a crosswalk by a teenage driver who made a left turn with the sun in his eyes and didn’t see three people in a crosswalk.

When people are being unusually foolish or immoral, it’s actually impossible to take enough steps to avoid being harmed by them, unless one becomes a total hermit.

And again, at what point is it safe for a woman to be alone with a man? Is she supposed to get engaged to a guy that she thinks is going to rape her, given half a chance? Also, does it make any sense to marry a guy, believing that it’s not safe to be alone with him? At some point between meeting a guy and marrying him, it’s prudent to check and see who he is when nobody is watching him.

 

[Xantippe]

There’s a difference between something you haven’t personally experienced and a strawman. It is certainly what I experienced - I believe @Xantippe has referenced similar things, there are many other women who’ve said similar. Also consider as a man the lessons you learned were likely not the same. The boys were always shooed out of the room any time the subject of modesty came up.

Also, I don’t know if Theo520 is a cradle Catholic or grew up something else, but both DarkLight and I grew up in the conservative Protestant world, which is not exactly the same as the mainstream orthodox Catholic world. (I believe you can get a lot of similar views among Catholic trads, though, if you look.)

The older I get, the more disenchanted I become with his stuff. Too many naive generalizations.

I’m not familiar with Jason Evert, but that seems not uncommon among chastity writers for the younger audience.

 

[starshiptrooper]

Oh a Russian. Well there’s your first mistake. I kid, but seriously, American women (especially young ones) really underestimate how well they are treated by American men.

Yet they still screech and cry about how oppressed they are. If I had 2 wishes, my second wish would be to deport every single one who believes they are under an oppressive patriarchy here to ISIS controlled territory.

Some women like a man to be a little rape-y. Can’t explain it myself, don’t much like the idea of it (being of a gentle nature as I am) but there it is.

That probably has some connection to the popularity of 50 Shades of Gray.

I guess if you meet a lot of girls who like to be “convinced” you might grow accustomed to it. End up meeting one who likes to be heard and suddenly it’s a hashtag and you’re cleaning out your desk. It’s hard being a dirtbag these days. You’re too safe for some girls and way too dangerous for others. My advice for the boys? Play it safe.

What we need to do is introduce some competition for the American woman. That would go a long way towards solving our problems.

I wonder how much dating experience man needs before he loses the “I didn’t know!” Excuse?

That depends, if you happen to be a Muslim “refugee” in Germany, you never do according to one judge.

 

[Xantippe]

What we need to do is introduce some competition for the American woman. That would go a long way towards solving our problems.

That’s already a thing.

However, it works the other way around, too. Both my sister and I are married to European immigrants.

That depends, if you happen to be a Muslim “refugee” in Germany, you never do according to one judge.

I guess rape is real…just so long as the guy is Muslim.