Has the #MeToo movement become a witch-hunt to a significant degree?

[Xantippe]

But, yes, Zippy is wrong to suggest that the student was imprudent to go to Shenandoah national park. The park is absolutely crawling with tourists and a nice hike seems like a perfectly reasonable date.

Yeah, I grew up near a National Park in Washington State and have been to a couple of other National Parks and Zippy’s idea that a National Park is essentially Motel 6 is pretty weird.

Driving into the isolated wilderness with a stranger.

College boyfriend, stranger, what’s the difference?

In my case, I’d say I should have been more aware that he generally didn’t seem to care when I said no to something

Yeah. That’s a biggie.

Well, every scenario we’ve brought up that isn’t that has been conveniently ignored or responded to with a vague insistence that women ought to be taking care of themselves and all this “consent” stuff is just a way of trying to dodge our own responsibility. So yeah, it sure sounds like any choice we make that ends with us being assaulted is going to somehow after the fact be turned into some sort of unwise risk.

Exactly.

then it seamlessly slides into girls who are laying down with strange men in isolated forests,

Where did you get that?

Yes, it is a learning opportunity if you do something with one expectation and get an undesirable outcome.

Smart people learn from their mistakes, even if the other party broke the law.

I remember to lock my car after it was robbed, it was imprudent of me to leave it unlocked one evening.

So, never drive anywhere with a boyfriend or fiance?

That’s pretty limiting–and unnecessary when dealing with a decent person.

 

[Theo520]

Yeah, I grew up near a National Park in Washington State and have been to a couple of other National Parks and Zippy’s idea that a National Park is essentially Motel 6 is pretty weird.

When you can’t afford a Motel 6, a secluded Park road or short walk off the trail can get you privacy.
Plus you are surrounded by the beauty of nature, which some find romantic.

 

[Xantippe]

A while back, there was a CAF thread where a Red Pill guy was explaining that his go-to first date was to pack some trail mix and take his date hiking.

I tried to explain to him that this was not a great first date idea (most women hear that scenario and think “shallow grave” and “she was never seen again”), but I don’t think it got through to him. Note that his date idea was at least as dangerous for his dates as the Christendom scenario, and arguably more so, as they would likely be in an even more isolated location and it was just a first date.

Another male Red Pill poster once got hugely offended when I explained to him that women often excuse themselves to ladies’ room on a first date in order to check in with friends for safety reasons.

And yet another CAF guy was upset to be told that from the woman’s point of view, having a guy she doesn’t know well walk her to her car or apartment is more dangerous than walking alone.

The funny thing is that on the one hand women are told we’re not careful enough and if anything happens it’s our fault, but on the other hand, a lot of guys seem very unhappy and offended when told about the stuff that women do for safety reasons.

 

[Lea101]

Another male Red Pill poster once got hugely offended when I explained to him that women often excuse themselves to ladies’ room on a first date in…

That’s actually a good point. I remember that thread. I think these type of boys would use that argument when talking about sexual assault but they actually don’t like it in practice because it affects them. They’ll then say we women paint men with a broad brush and not all of them are rapists (which will then be followed the the feminists’ M&M analogy)

I would personally be careful and stay away from guys that don’t ‘get’ why we take a lot precautions.

 

[Xantippe]

I took it as the guy was her boyfriend and the outing was planned. A year plus later, she decided what they did was rape.

I suspect that either she felt pressured or just had morning regret, a year afterwards. Since he was her boyfriend and probably another student at the college, I suspect the boy simply wanted to have sex with his girlfriend rather than commit a felony.

Presumably, if he committed rape, he was thinking “I am having sex!” not “I am committing a felony!” Again, there are no floating subtitles or loudspeaker announcing, “YOU ARE COMMITTING A FELONY!”

This is, after all, Christendom, so one has to expect that Christendom girls are (on average) much more motivated to say no to premarital sex than the average US woman. And if not, what is Christendom for, anyway? I don’t really get defenses of Christendom that make the assumption that their student body behaves exactly the same as students elsewhere.

I also have to mention that in cultures or subcultures where women are expected to always say no no no, it’s not uncommon for men to believe that it’s necessary for the boyfriend to commit rape in order to get the ball rolling for a fully physical relationship. So, in these cultures or subcultures, rape might be an expected part of a normal boyfriend-girlfriend relationship (at least from the male point of view).

One of the big red flags in my relationship with my rape-y college boyfriend, who was apparently from one of these cultures, was that he told me that one of his friends had told him that he needed to rape me in order for us to start having sex. Now, I realize that it soundly flamingly stupid that I stuck around after hearing that, but I was 19, this was my first serious boyfriend, nothing really bad had happened up to that point over the previous months, and thanks to my immersion in the idea that it’s the woman’s job to fend off the guy right up to the altar, it didn’t really occur to me that this was a mile post unusually bad things, because (sad to say) that was actually very much in keeping with the spirit of my theory of relationships of the time.

But I escaped marrying him, which is the important thing.

 

[DarkLight]

Presumably, if he committed rape, he was thinking “I am having sex!” not “I am committing a felony!” Again, there are no floating subtitles or loudspeaker announcing, “YOU ARE COMMITTING A FELONY!”

I mentioned upthread, but there have been studies where they asked questions like, say, “Have you ever gotten someone to have sex by using force, or threatening to use force, such as twisting their arm or holding them down, when they didn’t want to have sex?” And men who would say they’d never raped someone, would then say yes to that question.

I also have to mention that in cultures or subcultures where women are expected to always say no no no, it’s not uncommon for men to believe that it’s necessary for the boyfriend to commit rape in order to get the ball rolling for a fully physical relationship.

Unfortunately I think the “chewed gum” type analogies tend to encourage this. If the reason to not have sex before marriage is because even one instance of sexual contact with a man means you’re permanently bonded to him, there’s really no difference between one sexual encounter and several.

 

[Xantippe]

It seems to be not uncommon for men from certain backgrounds to disbelieve that women can be explicit and clear about consent. I can think of at least one poster from this thread who is like that. That type is probably not uncommon among conservative religious men who are “on break” from their religious heritage but don’t accept secular ideas about consent.

Guys like that really hate the idea of being expected to check for consent.

As an experienced married lady, the whole thing makes me roll my eyes. Of course women are capable of asking or saying yes if that’s what they actually want. It’s not that hard.

 

[AlNg]

Little miss Susie wants to be a man’s equal until it comes time to fend for herself (like men do) and then suddenly she wants chivalry. Except Little miss Susie ain’t no maiden

There is some truth to what you have said. OTOH there are some wonderful women out there who are a real blessing to everyone around them.

 

[starshiptrooper]

CAF has a lot of MRA/Red Pill types.

Chunkmonk and myself are the only 2 active posters who remotely match that descriptor, granted one of us alone is enough to disturb the little bubble of feminist thought here though.

 

[Xantippe]

Chunkmonk and myself are the only 2 active posters who remotely match that descriptor, granted one of us alone is enough to disturb the little bubble of feminist thought here though.

The head count is more than that.

It’s true I’m not sure how to count the Dalrock guy who had seemingly unlimited CAF handles that he was loaning out to Dalrock buddies and got caught red-handed doing it (screen shots and everything). Good times!

 

[starshiptrooper]

A greater mystery is why feminists decry a mythical rape culture in the West and then invite an actual rape culture en masse in the name of diversity.

 

[Xantippe]

A greater mystery is why feminists decry a mythical rape culture in the West and then invite an actual rape culture en masse in the name of diversity.

Based on this thread, it looks like that mythical rape culture is alive and well.

 

[starshiptrooper]

Try living with Drill Instructors for 13 weeks, hearing “Nice legs baby!” followed by a wolf whistle sounds like a vacation by comparison.

 

[Xantippe]

Try living with Drill Instructors for 13 weeks, hearing “Nice legs baby!” followed by a wolf whistle sounds like a vacation by comparison.

But people who live with drill instructors for 13 weeks presumably signed up for it (at least now that we have a volunteer military).

 

[starshiptrooper]

Since the last draft happened well within living memory and registration for selective service is mandatory, I fail to see your point.

 

[Rozellelily]

DIt’s a good movement but my concern is that there may be a bit of tone of guilty until proven innocent when it should be the other way and people may be denied due process because once someone’s accused publicly in the media their reputation is finished.
In my view people should be trialled in a court of law not trial by media.

At the same time though,I recognise that maybe there’s a bit of a grey area too as some of these “events” may not be criminal acts so are untriallable.

In general I think there needs to be more open discussion regarding what constitutes sexual harassment vs what doesn’t.
For example a co worker trying to “get it on sexually” with another co-worker may be sleazy and/or unprofessional but in my mind isn’t sexual harassment.
What would be sexual harassment would be if they kept bothering them after they saw they were distressed,tried to coerce them,threatened they’d be fired,abused their power etc…

Also,some people who had experienced rape or sexual harassment in the past may misinterpret innocent events as being harassment when they aren’t due to their “lenses” being clouded due to horrible past experience/s.

 

[HarryStotle]

An intelligent discussion on the topic:

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

Try living with Drill Instructors for 13 weeks, hearing “Nice legs baby!” followed by a wolf whistle sounds like a vacation by comparison.

I actually did live with drill instructors for a bit many years ago.

Try getting solicited for prostitution at a charity event or being badgered while in line at the grocery store.

 

[ChunkMonk]

but then dismissed every single discussion of consent

The only consent I have any interest in discussing comes with a ring.

and multiple women saying they get blamed for anything short of staying locked up in their houses.

Who blamed you for the bus harassment? Who blamed Amazing Grace for the preteen touching her? I didn’t see anyone blame anyone for those things.

You’re laying every single thing at the feet of hook-up culture even when women provide multiple examples where they’re trying to go about their lives or have chaste relationships and are still assaulted.

Wrong. I am blaming everything at the feet of secular culture. Hookup is just a part of secular culture.

You’ve also decried the idea that the modern woman should expect men, or society at large, to provide any sort of protection.

Wrong again. I said it was imprudent to expect it, and also said that it is generally impossible to provide due to the other cultural factors at play. We have a Christian duty to do what we can. Unfortunately, what we can is very little. I also decry feel-good do-nothing half-measures like #metoo.

You’ve said we can’t expect to work with men men (the lions comment) and then expect to not be assaulted.

Wrong again. I said a woman can’t work with men if she doesn’t want to fear any possible harassment or sexual assault. It is mathematically impossible that no woman will ever fear sexual misconduct when millions of women are working with millions of men every day. This isn’t a moral question, just a statistical fact.

You’ve repeatedly dodged any question of what a woman who wants to live a chaste life is to do to protect herself, if she doesn’t have a man to protect her,

In this society? There are a few options, but many are off the table. Welcome to the real world. My suggestion was revolutionary change in the way men and women view themselves and act in society. I see your objection here as basically:

“You’ve refused to tell me how to stand in a fire and not risk being burned!”

You’ve also repeatedly referred to men in terms of predators

Some men are predators.

suggest a responsible woman ought to consider any man she’s alone with as a threat

That would be extremely prudent, especially since every last one of you claims to have been the victim of sexual misbehavior at some point in your life. If it makes you feel any better, I generally work under the assumption that people are potentially threats until I know them well.

Did I design society? I’m just telling you how it is. Routinely putting yourself in compromising positions increases your risk of being victimized. That’s just a fact.

 

[ChunkMonk]

One of the big red flags in my relationship with my rape-y college boyfriend, who was apparently from one of these cultures, was that he told me that one of his friends had told him that he needed to rape me in order for us to start having sex. Now, I realize that it soundly flamingly stupid that I stuck around after hearing that, but I was 19,

One of the big red flags in my friendship was when when my buddy said his friends were telling him to beat me down and rob me so I would start buying him stuff. Now it may soind stupid, but I was only 19.

Come on… It’s like you want me to think women need to be controlled. I hear this stuff all the time and it’a mind-boggling how a 10 year old me apparently had more common sense than a grown woman…