Has the #MeToo movement become a witch-hunt to a significant degree?

[TheAmazingGrace]

One of life’s mysteries is why some people who think Islamic law is the Worst Thing Ever and that fighting militant Islam is the great crusade of our day are in such a big hurry to replicate as much of Islamic law and social mores as they can in the US.

Innit, though? Same practices, different religious window dressings.

 

[ChunkMonk]

It is a fact that women as a whole have been the victims of systemic oppression throughout most of history, with their worth as people being very much determined by their sexual market value, and their bodies treated as commodities by a not insignificant number of men.

Tha vast majority of people were victims of systemic oppression for most of human history. Men often times suffering far more than women.

You’ll refuse to understand, and that’s okay. You never confirmed that you’re not a teenager, so assuming that my guess about your age is roughly accurate, you have plenty of time to develop into a more compassionate person.

You’ve got a real nasty attitude hiding under that thin veneer of ‘compassion’.

 

[ChunkMonk]

Ask her to provide the context for her story. It was perfectly reasonable to assume she got into the laying position willingly, otherwise why would she be using this as an allegedly murky ‘consent’ example?

You’re just nitpicking because yet again, a feminist puts words in my mouth and takes arguments out of context, only this time she’s getting called on it.

although it could just as easily have been a sofa or a futon or a car

As if this would change the situation at all. Like I said: nitpicking. So far you’ve got insults, taking things put of context, fabricating strawman arguments, and faux-outrage. Not a whole lot of detatched reasoning.

On a side note, I’m still waiting for a tangible benefit to society that comes from women’s suffrage.

 

[Werbenjagermanjensen]

Sure, 'cause you (being male) most likely don’t have to deal with it.

If catcalling bothers you, you should seek help to deal with it. It’s pointless trying to change anyone much less macho strangers the world over. The best thing is to toughen up and just let people be who they’re going to be. If it causes you to stress or alter plans you’re letting it get to you too much.

 

[ChunkMonk]

Yes, I couldn’t have been the only one thinking I would rather assume the risk of getting raped than live under the type of rules that could keep me safe.

No one can keep you safe. The risk can be mitigated, but bad things can and will happen.

Anyway, yet again this is all taken out of context. What was my original statement?

What we need is a revolution exclusively for men, lead exclusively by men, and sadly, requiring a decent bit of sacrifice on the part of women concerning career choices, education, voting rights, divorce rights, parental rights, etc.

What was this made in response too?

If this is true, do you think Catholic morality will fare better?

Was I talking about women being protected by men? Nope. I was talking about the social revolution required to effect broad changes in the way people view sex and consent. What followed was a bunch of assuming I meant things I never said and then once enough time had passed for the context to be lost, pretending this was in response to some point about women being protected by men. The question at hand was the social vectors that combine to create the ‘rape’ culture and my answer was that a total revolution in social behaviors is necessary to remove said vectors.

Dance to the tune? Then pay the piper. Don’t want to pay? Then don’t dance. What y’all want is to be able to dance all night and then in the morning have the men beat up the piper so you don’t have to pay. That isn’t going to happen. My position has always been “no one can protect you, but you.” The whole “men need to protect women” stuff came from y’all, not me.

Of course I have a feeling this will either be ignored or completely fly over the feminist (presumably college educated) head, so I’m really just banging my head against a wall at this point.

 

[Xantippe]

On a side note, I’m still waiting for a tangible benefit to society that comes from women’s suffrage.

Taxation with representation.

You’re just nitpicking because yet again, a feminist puts words in my mouth and takes arguments out of context, only this time she’s getting called on it.

You were saying DL said things she didn’t say and now you’re complaining “a feminist puts words in my mouth”?

 

[ChunkMonk]

That is a tautology. Representation in this context is voting. Society benefits from the taxation, the women benefit from the representation. I fail to see how society benefits from the representation.

Edit: Is the point of her story significantly changed if it is a sofa instead of a bed? No.

Is the point of my response signifigantly changed if it is in response to a woman willingly engaging in risky behavior rather than simply existing? Yes

 

[Xantippe]

I fail to see how society benefits from the representation.

How does society benefit from your vote?

 

[ChunkMonk]

That’s not an answer.

 

[Xantippe]

Is the point of my response signifigantly changed if it is in response to a woman willingly engaging in risky behavior rather than simply existing? Yes

I’m looking forward to your complete list of “risky behaviors” that women don’t get to engage in.

Speaking as a former young woman, who is a lot more important than where and when with regard to personal safety. If the person you’re with is a good person, they’re not suddenly going to transform into Mr. Hyde given opportunity.

For example, when my future husband and I were courting, we were often at each other’s apartments (we were both graduate students living far from our families) at all hours and we did quite a number of chaste sleep-overs. There was also a lot of smooching. It was fantastic! My future husband somehow managed not to sexually assault me, despite hundreds of opportunities.

Sure it was risky, but what I got out of that (aside from happy memories) was unshakable confidence that my future husband was chaste, self-controlled and entirely trustworthy.

(Looking back, the sleep-overs were maybe not the greatest in terms of avoiding scandal, but it’s also true that for some of that time there was a serial rapist in my neighborhood who was preying on professional women, so I appreciated not having to sleep alone in my apartment in a bad neighborhood in a strange city. We also set a possible land speed record for fastest Catholic engagement and wedding–we met and married within a single school year.)

 

[ChunkMonk]

I’m looking forward to your complete list of “risky behaviors” that women don’t get to engage in.

There is no complete list. It is all dependent upon the circumstance. There are some broad parameters, but even those are again, ultimately determined by the situation. And no, not every unwise choice will lead to a bad outcome, just like not every wise choice will prevent a bad outcome. We obviously don’t really disagree on yhe basic principle here: people (men and women both) need to be aware of their surroundings and understand that they are often times the only ones who are looking oit for their well-being. How this general principle applies to the specific scenario, I’m sure we disagree quite a bit. I’ve been victimized less often than many people I know precisely because I’m very careful and I am always aware.

chaste sleep-overs. There was also a lot of smooching. It was fantastic!

I usually make the effort to regret the sinful behaviors of my past.

 

[Xantippe]

There is no complete list. It is all dependent upon the circumstance. There are some broad parameters, but even those are again, ultimately determined by the situation. And no, not every unwise choice will lead to a bad outcome, just like not every wise choice will prevent a bad outcome. We obviously don’t really disagree on yhe basic principle here: people (men and women both) need to be aware of their surroundings and understand that they are often times the only ones who are looking oit for their well-being. How this general principle applies to the specific scenario, I’m sure we disagree quite a bit. I’ve been victimized less often than many people I know precisely because I’m very careful and I am always aware.

Uh oh. So there’s not a definitive list.

I suppose this means that whatever one does can be second-guessed later if something goes wrong? That’s what I was expecting.

I usually make the effort to regret the sinful behaviors of my past.

As I said, it was 99.44% pure. There were a couple of things we did that I would do differently (a couple visits to second base during our engagement), but I’m really proud of how well we did with regard to chastity given that there were no external restrictions and we spent a lot of time together. Plus, I didn’t get assaulted by the neighborhood serial rapist and wasn’t scared to death when trying to fall asleep in my apartment when my future husband was around, which was a big plus.

After you’ve gotten married to a Nice Catholic Girl, I’ll be happy to hear how you did things differently. But for the most part, a lot of people who quibble about this stuff a) haven’t gotten married or b) sinned it up big time (but somehow feel qualified to give chastity advice), and I’m not interested in their opinion if they haven’t actually successfully followed their own rules.

 

[Xantippe]

I have to add that these days very, very few women would wind up married if they followed all of the personal safety advice that some people give.

For example, the blogger Zippy Catholic wrote a post about problems at Christendom where he basically asserted that it was imprudent for a college sophomore to drive her college boyfriend to a nearby National Park, and that it was imprudent of her parents to get her a driver’s license and send her to Christendom (!).

Dog bites man, women and children hardest hit

Apparently an attention starved Catholic mommy blogger wrote a hit piece against Christendom College. I won’t link to the two part article itself because I’m not interested in driving …

zippycatholic.wordpress.com

Again, I could have done all of those things with my future husband and been perfectly safe. It’s the character of the person you’re with that makes an activity safe or unsafe.

 

[ConstantLearner]

“Men whistle at me as I walk by!”

I, myself, will worry when they don’t!

 

[ConstantLearner]

How does society benefit from your vote?

Maybe we should all stop voting since society doesn’t benefit.

 

[ChunkMonk]

Uh oh. So there’s not a definitive list.

I suppose this means that whatever one does can be second-guessed later if something goes wrong? That’s what I was expecting.

I suppose this means you can’t even admit the basic principle because to do so would imply that a woman has even the slightest responsibility and we could never do that. That’s what I was expecting.

‘Chastely’ fondling each other. That’s wonderful.

 

[ChunkMonk]

I have to add that these days very, very few women would wind up married if they followed all of the personal safety advice that some people give.

Oh the horror! I have to add that very, very, very few men would get to ‘chastely’ fondle any girls at all if they followed all the dating advice that feminists give.

Again, I could have done all of those things with my future husband and been perfectly safe. It’s the character of the person you’re with that makes an activity safe or unsafe.

But I thought all these women in abusive marriages and relationships had NO WAY OF KNOWING the guy would be abusive???

“Russian roulette is perfectly safe as long as the chamber you land on is empty.”

 

[Theo520]

For example, the blogger Zippy Catholic wrote a post about problems at Christendom where he basically asserted that it was imprudent for a college sophomore to drive her college boyfriend to a nearby National Park, and that it was imprudent of her parents to get her a driver’s license and send her to Christendom (!)

I suggest you read the article again. He defended the college by reminding people that the girl made the decision to drive off into the mountains with her boyfriend.

It was imprudent on her part given that over a year later, she decided she was raped.

Perhaps you are transposing the mommy blogger he was writing about with what Zippy Catholic was stating.

 

[ChunkMonk]

LOL I just read that blog and (while horrible) it was also hilarious how differently it was cast by Xiantipe here. Like you said, apparently it was imprudent: she got raped! Nah, it was obviously prudent. In fact not driving into the deep wilderness alone with a stranger is actually very unwise because if you don’t go into an isolated wilderness with a stranger then you’ll never get married.

But we also need to remember that the boy is only a stranger who showed no warning signs of any kind when we’re asking her to protect herself by not getting involved with bad guys. When we ask her to protect herself by not taking risks with any guys, then he becomes a trustworthy boyfriend who she knows will never hurt her.

 

[DarkLight]

You’re a champion of selective memory aren’t you? When did the conversation turn toward 'peotecting oneself?" Was it after you talked about work? Nope.

It was after you talked about a girl getting into bed with a boy and then being ‘raped’. So actually, getting into bed with a random boy is on the same spectrum of ‘not protecting yourself’ as getting sloshed at a bar.

Farbeit for me to expect honesty from you though.

I was literally responding to this statement from you: “Men learn real early that the only people looking out for our safety is us. Women learn early on that men need to protect them.” (post 1329) and " What we need is a revolution exclusively for men, lead exclusively by men, and sadly, requiring a decent bit of sacrifice on the part of women concerning career choices, education, voting rights, divorce rights, parental rights, etc." (post 1278) - that one doesn’t mention anything about protection, but presumably if women don’t have rights themselves they would have no choice but to rely on men. Which was out of a discussion in response to me saying the following: “What it is is a protection that I won’t be expected to trade putting up with repeated sexual advances and a dismissal of my own moral standards for a chance to work at a job around men.” (post 1274)

It’s right on the page there. And I’m pointing out that when the conversation turns to women protecting themselves, suddenly “getting in bed with a random stranger” or “getting black-out drunk in a bar” are the only examples that come up. It does seem rather like what @Xantippe said - that any choice at all we make to step outside of our houses can be at fault if we end up getting assaulted.