Has the #MeToo movement become a witch-hunt to a significant degree?

[DarkLight]

Have you seen Dunkirk? Watch the scene where all the men (average age ~19) drown in the cold ocean. That’s why it matters. Their lives were worth more than you or I ever will be. But they gave them up and that deserves respect.

Yes, those who give their lives in pursuit of the right deserve honor. But that doesn’t somehow extend to all members of the class. I will be happy to give you due respect and gratitude if you personally go fight in a war for freedom.

That’s such a horrible thing to say. Do you have any idea how brutal that war was?

Yes, I do - I’m also well aware that I sure didn’t fight in it, and taking credit because my skin tone happens to be the same would be arrogant and ridiculous.

Honor the fighters, but don’t expect some sort of generalized gratitude from all black people to all white people, or act like it’s somehow an important point whether or not white people could take freedom back from black people.

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

Do you have any idea how brutal childbirth is? Every woman who births a baby risks her life for the sake of another, and there are way more mothers than there are male soldiers. Where’s our gratitude?

 

[Rozellelily]

According to who?
Maybe according to some panellists and current affairs commentators etc that you see on your Tv but I don’t see many Catholic women from the general population longing for a Muslim man or looking to be his second or third wife.

Do you mean just that they see themselves as a victim or do you mean that society and/or women give them some special attention?

 

[Lea101]

According to who?

I think you would realize by now that whatever they are saying is not based on reality, but rather, based on their perceptions of the world.

 

[Rozellelily]

I figured as much but how will they change if no one “challenges” them about their perceptions?
I’m getting the impression though that some of the them may be more interested in just venting/stewing in their perceived victimhood rather then changing anything (internally or externally).

 

[Lea101]

One needs to be open to conversation. Has to be willing to hear where the other person is coming from and look at what they are truly saying instead of covering your ears and talking. If not, you could challenge them all you want and you would get to nowhere. Look at how long this thread is. And then look at the last few posts. Nothing to do with the topic. If one is dead set in their perception of you, they’ll literally take your words and twist it to fit their perceptions. Sometimes they just want to talk about a topic they have in mind so they would manipulate the conversation to allow themselves to start whining about whatever they hate (be it women, a political group, a person etc). Hence the reason why you see threads taking sudden twists.

You’re right about venting. The internet is the only place you could vent freely nowadays.

 

[Xantippe]

“As a male feminist, my heart aches for those women trapped in patriarchal, war-torn societies. In order to save those women, men from those oppressive societies should be prohibited from attaining refugee status. This frees more resources for female refugees enabling them to become truly empowered womyn in the West.”

I would pay to see the effects of that logic bomb.

One that comes to mind is that bringing more immigrant women to the US would likely make it more and more difficult for you to meet your political goals through the democratic process. (The gender gap in presidential races is typically about 10%.) The Democratic party would love your plan.

But I wasn’t talking about what is wrong or right. I was talking about what is.

What is is that US men are not actually going to rise up and violently disenfranchise their mothers, grandmothers, sisters, aunts, daughters, granddaughters, girlfriends, wives, etc.

I don’t blame women. I don’t even expect gratitude. I just wish there was some gratitude.

There is gratitude. The US does an enormous song and dance about the Greatest Generation, veterans, the Vietnam Memorial, Wounded Warriors, etc. The concrete help is undoubtedly inadequate, but the rhetoric of gratitude is definitely there.

Also, speaking personally, my family has a large number of men who served in the US military, from my great-great-great-grandfather who was a Union cavalryman on down to my grandfather who landed at Normandy and served as an infantry medic during the Battle of the Bulge and my brother who just got out of the Marines, having served about 14 years and done two tours in Iraq. My family venerates my grandfather (who is one of the best people you will ever meet) and I think a lot of my brother.

But, being grateful doesn’t mean being willing to throw away the rights that they served to protect.

But the idea that you have to spend the night at your boyfriends house and make out with him in order to know he isn’t a rapist is kind of silly.

I don’t think I said that.

I meant basic human rights. Not add-ons.

So, what are the “basic human rights” that women get to keep?

The cruelty will grow and we will be bred nearly out of existence by polygamist feminists and their studs.

Or, alternately, bred out of existence by beta dads.

 

[starshiptrooper]

Indeed. The cruelty will grow and we will be bred nearly out of existence by polygamist feminists and their studs. And people wonder why I’m a pessimist.

I am not worried about that. Contraception, abortion, and emphasis on women’s careers would naturally ensure that feminism dies out. The American left is dependent on mass immigration from the 3rd World. They need those votes to make up for the children they are not having.

Of course replacing Western whites with the 3rd World will ensure that we turn into the 3rd World, but that is a small price to pay for utopia.

 

[starshiptrooper]

Or, alternately, bred out of existence by beta dads.

By their kids or their wives’ kids?

 

[starshiptrooper]

Why does it matter how we got rights, so long as they are moral? I would be quite silly to expect black people to be grateful because white people fought for them to be free (from other white people).

Is it also quite silly for blacks to expect me to feel guilty because some white people were mean to them in the past?

 

[Xantippe]

By their kids or their wives’ kids?

Go ahead and look up rates of non-paternity in middle class fathers. I’ll wait.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/g...ty-myth-the-rarity-of-cuckoldry/#.WpQYbeinHrc

Generally, the higher the socioeconomic level, the lower the non-paternity rate.

 

[Lea101]

So I guess you noticed the double standard that tends to run in your group.

Yes it’s silly of them to make you feel guilty for something you did not do. However, expecting empathy is not.

There is a difference, after all.

 

[Xantippe]

Is it also quite silly for blacks to expect me to feel guilty because some white people were mean to them in the past?

Either of these two options makes sense:

–Expect gratitude for emancipation and expect blame for past racist oppression.
–Don’t expect gratitude for emancipation, but also don’t accept blame for past racist oppression.

What totally doesn’t make sense is a third option:

–Expect gratitude for emancipation and refuse responsibility for past racist oppression.

By the way, this also applies to other areas.

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

So are you saying that the reason women dress in a manner that mimics ripe fruit is because their male bosses prefer that they do?

…
If makeup was deceptive then technically all other forms of appearance changes are too.
For example a man might wear a suit on a first date.A suit can make a man look very sharp and in many cases quite different than when he’s wearing casual clothes like a tee shirt.
If he being deceptive? No,because most women know that how he looks in a suit is likely not how he will look in casual wear.

It could be argued that all clothing is deceptive because the intention behind clothing is to hide and not expose all our vulnerabilities. This is why people have nightmares about being naked in a public space. All your vulnerabilities are exposed for everyone to view.

So, yes, clothing is deceptive to the extent that it “portrays” you as something you are not or shuts others off from seeing you as you are. It is also one of the reasons why humans do not feel completely at home in this life – there is always something that keeps us from being completely at ease in the world and within ourselves.

This is, by the way, the deep meaning behind Adam and Eve covering themselves after eating the fruit. Exposing one’s vulnerabilities means others can see them and, therefore, have knowledge of how you might be exploited by those vulnerabilities. In fact, knowing one’s own vulnerabilities at a deep level means you also know what would hurt or harm others at their core.

This is very likely why the symbolism of God making the skins for Adam and Eve is included in the Genesis account – there is good reason why we shouldn’t expose our deepest and broken being to others until they have proven themselves trustworthy.

This is also part of what trusting or having faith in God is all about. Permitting him into all the rooms of our “house,” so to speak so that he can help us be healed of deep brokenness.

In short, all clothing is deceptive to some degree, precisely because it hides something about each of us. That might be a necessary thing in the broken state within which we live. There are many who ought not be trusted with the deep truth about others because they will only create more mayhem knowing that truth. However, there is such a thing as being too deceptive or using the fiction deceptively to gain our own advantage.

Women dressing provocatively in the workplace may be more about exploiting the vulnerabilities of men or enhancing their own power than merely about “looking nice,” whatever that entails.

Women will often say it “gives them confidence,” but they never specify confidence to do what, precisely. Is it confidence over feelings of vulnerability or confidence to exploit others?

 

[DarkLight]

Is it also quite silly for blacks to expect me to feel guilty because some white people were mean to them in the past?

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the idea of equality. No one really wants you to feel guilty about inequalities - it doesn’t exactly help anything anyway if you do. What they want is to recognize that there are current effects of historic inequalities, which result in modern inequalities as well, and that there are still current racial attitudes that affect people’s lives. The fact that things aren’t as bad as they used to be doesn’t imply we should accept them as good enough.

 

[DarkLight]

Women dressing provocatively in the workplace may be more about exploiting the vulnerabilities of men or enhancing their own power than merely about “looking nice,” whatever that entails.

One thing I would point out is that dressing to look nicer doesn’t necessarily imply dressing provocatively - and that can be the case even if men do in fact find a certain style of clothing more attractive. That was part of my point in bringing up suits. A lot of women find a man in a well-fitted suit to be significantly more attractive than that same man in shorts and a t-shirt. But that doesn’t mean men are being provocative by wearing suits to work!

 

[HarryStotle]

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the idea of equality. No one really wants you to feel guilty about inequalities - it doesn’t exactly help anything anyway if you do.

Yeah, no. This claim that “no one really wants you to feel guilty” reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of human nature, in general, assuming as it does that all human beings are fundamentally decent and good and caring.

While I would agree that the vast majority who just try to go on with their lives are decent human beings, we aren’t talking about THAT majority. We are talking about the social activists who are consumed with driving social and political change. The question is why are these people so focused on the idea of equality of outcome rather the equality of opportunity? Clearly, they do want others to feel guilty about their position and their “privilege” so that they can tear down the structures upon which ordered and civil society functions – marriage, the education system, equality before the law, authority, due process, morality, value of human life, the right to protect your own property and interests, private property ownership, true and unbiased freedom of the press, religious liberty, etc.

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

Women dressing provocatively in the workplace may be more about exploiting the vulnerabilities of men or enhancing their own power than merely about “looking nice,” whatever that entails.

One thing I would point out is that dressing to look nicer doesn’t necessarily imply dressing provocatively - and that can be the case even if men do in fact find a certain style of clothing more attractive. That was part of my point in bringing up suits. A lot of women find a man in a well-fitted suit to be significantly more attractive than that same man in shorts and a t-shirt. But that doesn’t mean men are being provocative by wearing suits to work!

I never claimed that it did. My point was that dress is, by its very nature, deceptive. That deception might even be proper if it keeps those who have a penchant for doing evil from knowing the vulnerabilities of others. But that is not to deny that some (even women) will use dress as a way to provoke or manipulate others. All women? No. Some? Yes.

Is all dress deceptive? A good case could be made for why it is. Is that “deception” necessarily bad? No. It does save many from suffering a great deal of grief in this broken world in which we live.

 

[Xantippe]

I don’t think women should sleep over at men’s houses, or go on overnight trips with them, or lay down beside them, or spend a lot of time alone with then. But I will say that there is nothing sinful about EVER being alone with them. Just probably not very often.

You think a woman should marry a man that she can’t spend a lot of time alone with?

Remember, we’re trying to prepare a couple for married life together–these days, a successful marriage can last 70+ years (my grandparents are about to celebrate their 72nd anniversary). The more time that gets invested in seeing how both people tick and what their habits and peculiarities are and working out win-win solutions to differences, the better chance there is of that working. (And no, I’m not talking about physical intimacy, but about learning each other’s domestic habits and standards and learning to work together.) Modern spouses are often each other’s only help at home and need to achieve a very sophisticated level of cooperation (especially as parents and homeowners), so it’s very important to start building the foundation of cooperation.

While I’m on the subject, I think every engaged couple should do something like Dave Ramsey’s Financial Peace University in addition to premarital counseling, in order to start married life with a shared financial vision.

Have you seen Dunkirk? Watch the scene where all the men (average age ~19) drown in the cold ocean. That’s why it matters. Their lives were worth more than you or I ever will be. But they gave them up and that deserves respect.

I am not seeing anybody in this thread not respecting the dead of Dunkirk.

 

[Xantippe]

Contraception, abortion, and emphasis on women’s careers would naturally ensure that feminism dies out.

We’ve had 45+ years (two generations) of very similar birthrates–do you see feminism dying out in the US?

I wouldn’t hold my breath if I were you.

Women dressing provocatively in the workplace may be more about exploiting the vulnerabilities of men or enhancing their own power than merely about “looking nice,” whatever that entails.

Do powerful women dress provocatively at work? There must be some examples, but dressing sexy is not usually associated closely with professional success outside the entertainment industry.

A lot of women find a man in a well-fitted suit to be significantly more attractive than that same man in shorts and a t-shirt. But that doesn’t mean men are being provocative by wearing suits to work!

Right.