Has the #MeToo movement become a witch-hunt to a significant degree?

[DarkLight]

Everyone realizes that it is not very wise to go flashing money around where thieves might see what you have. We get the idea that more attractive women, particularly those who took some trouble to look attractive, are going to attract more inappropriate comments than a woman who seems less attractive.

I mean, maybe, maybe not.

The trouble is - I can leave my money at home. I can’t actually leave my body at home. A thief targets someone because they think that person has money available to steal. Someone else who isn’t carrying that money around might not have any. The thief doesn’t want to waste their time on someone only carrying 5 bucks.

But fundamentally, a lot of these men are merely looking for the fact that I have female body parts. That’s not something I can realistically hide. Similarly, unless I take some pretty extreme measures, I can’t exactly disguise my overall body shape or how I look. The triggering factor isn’t really that I’m “showing off” - it’s that these men make the judgment that I’m female at all.

 

[DarkLight]

I hope you’re not advocating cohabitation here. That’s contrary to Christian teachings.

Pretty sure she’s just advocating things like being able to eat dinner with just your boyfriend, or watch a movie at one of your houses instead of having to stay in a public theater.

 

[ATraveller]

If she was advocating cohabitation, that would be a big surprise from Xantippe.

 

[ATraveller]

You could try a burka but I’m sure some who go overboard with ‘modesty’ will complain about that.

 

[HarryStotle]

And yes, obeying social norms will give one a stronger feeling of confidence than violating social norms.

Sure, until the social norms become those that are completely immoral. May as well learn to have confidence not in social norms but in the truth, because social norms are basically what the “average” member of a society can be persuaded to adopt.

When the social norm becomes burning incense to the emperor or sacrificing your children to Moloch, good luck with recouping your confidence, based as it will be on the morally corrupt standards of “social norms.”

Building a house on the shifting sands of “social norms” won’t guarantee your house will withstand the tide of social change.

 

[Theo520]

But fundamentally, a lot of these men are merely looking for the fact that I have female body parts. That’s not something I can realistically hide. Similarly, unless I take some pretty extreme measures, I can’t exactly disguise my overall body shape or how I look. The triggering factor isn’t really that I’m “showing off” - it’s that these men make the judgment that I’m female at all.

Please don’t over generalize like that, you know it’s not accurate.

It’s only a small minority, not “a lot” or most men, that will actively chase anything remotely female. Dressing modestly doesn’t help with this minority.

I’d say the majority of men are much more discerning. They will gauge their actions based on the location, dress and mannerisms of females. Dressing modestly or not acting flirtatiously will have a big impact in containing advances from the vast majority of men, though not all. Location and time of day also has a big impact with this group, they will be much more forward if you are dressed seductively and in singles bar but they will leave you alone in the family restaurant.

Then there is a minority of men at the other end who identify well with the Pence rule, they are not forward regardless of what you wear or how you may act.

 

[starshiptrooper]

Given that there are only 5 non-negotiable issues for Catholic voters and feminists have a lousy record on at least 2 of them, this is a very theoretical problem.

Working within your scenario, I would remember the saying about broken clocks being correct twice a day and act accordingly. I would not be able to consistently call myself a Christian otherwise.

 

[starshiptrooper]

No, on the eminently reasonable grounds that I am not a woman.

I am also not willing to live the lifestyle required to be a professional ballet dancer or a US Navy Seal.

 

[starshiptrooper]

Other groups came here under severe disadvantages but are doing just fine. Maybe the problem is not society, maybe their problems are just self-inflicted.

 

[starshiptrooper]

We’ve had 45+ years (two generations) of very similar birthrates–do you see feminism dying out in the US?

I wouldn’t hold my breath if I were you.

It is not going to collapse all at once, too much money and too many cogs turning. Mass importation of the 3rd World has been a major source of votes as the American left radicalizes. A few factors are going to converge (we have discussed them before) and when they do it’s Katy bar the door.

 

[Xantippe]

I hope you’re not advocating cohabitation here. That’s contrary to Christian teachings.

Nope.

That would be beside the point, because I would encourage learning to do stuff together before making the commitment of marriage and cohabitation.

 

[Xantippe]

Pretty sure she’s just advocating things like being able to eat dinner with just your boyfriend, or watch a movie at one of your houses instead of having to stay in a public theater.

I definitely wouldn’t recommend doing that stuff too fast, but once one is seriously dating and on a marriage track, it makes sense to start living a more financially sustainable lifestyle.

 

[Xantippe]

Sure, until the social norms become those that are completely immoral.

Unless the social norm is clearly immoral, I think it’s worth making an effort to obey it.

For one, it encourages humility to abide by the social rules of one’s culture. I believe G.K. Chesterton talks a lot about the value of convention.

When the social norm becomes burning incense to the emperor or sacrificing your children to Moloch, good luck with recouping your confidence, based as it will be on the morally corrupt standards of “social norms.”

You’ll notice that St. Paul encouraged his Christian audience to abide by local cultural standards as much as possible and avoid giving unnecessary offense and he himself was extremely culturally flexible. See 1 Corinthians 9:

“To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews; to those under the law I became as one under the law—though not being myself under the law—that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law—not being without law toward God but under the law of Christ—that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.”

It’s a huge mistake by some conservative Christians today to think that we’re supposed to slavishly obey the cultural norms of the 1st century Mediterranean world, whereas if St. Paul were with us today, he would encourage us to be good 21st century citizens, living as much as possible in harmony with local cultural norms, but having a strong sense of what actual morals require. He would not be impressed with people who give offense for the sake of giving offense and who make Christianity look bad.

See also 1 Peter 2:

“Maintain good conduct among the Gentiles, so that in case they speak against you as wrongdoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation. 13 Be subject for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, 14 or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to praise those who do right. 15 For it is God’s will that by doing right you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish men. 16 Live as free men, yet without using your freedom as a pretext for evil; but live as servants of God. 17 Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.”

I actually think that this is what a lot of the “submit” passages in the New Testament Epistles are about–not giving unnecessary offense or giving Christians a bad reputation by unnecessarily and willfully violating local cultural norms…

 

[Xantippe]

Location and time of day also has a big impact with this group, they will be much more forward if you are dressed seductively and in singles bar but they will leave you alone in the family restaurant.

I don’t think DarkLight spends a lot of time in singles bars.

No, on the eminently reasonable grounds that I am not a woman.

I am also not willing to live the lifestyle required to be a professional ballet dancer or a US Navy Seal.

So, you can’t even imagine living the lifestyle that you want to impose on women and on some level, you probably understand how crushing and undignified it would be to be a woman living under the rules that you want women to live under.

With regard to your analogy, being a professional ballet dancer or a US Navy Seal is a choice, whereas being born female is not a choice at all. Barring some sort of very radical lifestyle change, there’s no escape from being a woman.

 

[Theo520]

I don’t think DarkLight spends a lot of time in singles bars.

So she’s probably overgeneralizing about the first group of men, they are a small minority in this country.

 

[Xantippe]

So she’s probably overgeneralizing about the first group of men, they are a small minority in this country.

I think she’s drawing conclusions based on the men that are actually bothering her.

 

[Rozellelily]

Without photos,it’s hard for me to get a grasp on what sort of clothing you are referring to as being provocative.
I live in Australia and generally if a woman here was to dress “provocatively” (heaps of cleavage out and super short tight skirt) to an office type job,she would likely be thought of as unprofessional and if it was repetitive she may eventually lose her job.
That’s usually the “norm”. There are rare exceptions of course because often a workplaces acceptable dress code is decided to a degree by the mindset of the bosses.
Eg:a sleazy Lawyer with his own Law firm might be more then happy to have his junior female staff dress like this the above.

For the most part though,it’s not acceptable here to wear what you might wear if you worked at Hooters for example.

If you work in a more creative job such as Hairdressing or marketing etc then you often have more freedom to dress how you want but even then most women are just dressing for themselves.

I agree some women dress what might be termed provocatively like a game of how many men can I get-like an ego thing-but others do it because they have low self esteem.
Women usually wear makeup for one of two reasons:
1.They either feel more attractive and confident with it
2.They enjoy the fun and femininity of playing with makeup

Sure it might be a “fake confidence” but maybe we are given these things by God (cosmetics,suits etc) as a type of “mercy” lol because we live in such a shallow world where everyone places so much importance on looks?

The reality of a cruel world is that many times people are not given office jobs if they don’t look “professional enough” so while one woman may be blessed to be able to look that way without makeup,another might “need” makeup to not look run down and washed out etc.Some even “have” to get dermal fillers and Botox etc when makeup doesn’t cut it anymore either.
It gets even worse when people are over 50.
There is a growing trend now here of men over 50 getting Botox to still look “fresh and lively” to compete with younger people in the job market -they know if they do t they will have no chance to compete and get/keep a job.

 

[Xantippe]

2.They enjoy the fun and femininity of playing with makeup

That’s a very good point. It’s not my thing, but I believe there’s a lot of creativity in makeup. The same goes for clothing and shoes–there can be a lot of fun in it.

You can see this with preschoolers and how some of them feel about clothes: their capes, twirly skirts, animal print coats, light up shoes, animal ears, etc.

The reality of a cruel world is that many times people are not given office jobs if they don’t look “professional enough” so while one woman may be blessed to be able to look that way without makeup,another might “need” makeup to not look run down and washed out etc.

Yes.

It gets even worse when people are over 50.

I hear that there’s a lot of age discrimination for workers over 50, so some cosmetic stuff is for survival.

 

[Rozellelily]

If you are suggesting that a woman who dresses provocatively may hold some responsibility for a man sinning (excuse me to be frank,masturbation or whatever) then that might be an unpopular but not entirely unreasonable view because that’s the reason why Catholics (and other religions) believe in the concept of modesty isn’t it?
At the same time though,I believe modesty standards varies culture to culture.

If however you are suggesting that a woman who dresses provocatively and gets raped or molested holds some part responsibility for it then that is very wrong.
In this instance the only person who is ever responsible is the molester.
Remember that woman in Hijabs,abayas etc get raped too.
A rapist/molester can always try to find some justification-eg:the woman’s dress,her glance,the fact she was willing to be alone with him means she was a woman of poor repute etc…
They can always try to justify it within themselves somehow but in reality only they are to blame.

 

[DarkLight]

Please don’t over generalize like that, you know it’s not accurate.

I said “a lot of these men”, not “a lot of men.” Meaning, a lot of the category of men under discussion - the particular sort of men who harass women - are really only looking at whether their target is female and likely to not have someone else around to object. I wouldn’t generalize that to the sort of men who aren’t harassing random women in the first place.

To put it another way - most men don’t follow around women who’ve already said no, or yell crude things out their car windows. But of the category that do, I haven’t found the modesty level of my attire to make a significant difference to their behavior.