Has the #MeToo movement become a witch-hunt to a significant degree?

[DarkLight]

I got wasted and then cheated on my beta husband with a strange guy. I’m now trying to rationalize my slutty behavior by claiming I was too drunk to consent. How can I spin this so my husband doesn’t divorce me and end the gravy train?

I’m really not sure how you’re getting from “I was passed out and woke up to him having sex with me” to “I cheated,” unless the baseline assumption is that the woman must be lying.

Also, for all this “alpha” and “beta” stuff, I’d like someone to explain to me how a Catholic man is supposed to manage “alpha” behavior.

 

[ChunkMonk]

I’m really not sure how you’re getting from “I was passed out and woke up to him having sex with me” to “I cheated,”

The:

he asked me if I wanted him to stop, and then we had sex

part was kind of a big clue that she was willing to consent after ‘regaining’ consciousness. Also, the fact that the situation is now coming back in ‘bit and pieces’ is pretty hard evidence that she was, at most, ‘blacked out’ but not actually non-responsive. When I have passed out drunk, I don’t remember anything ever. When I have been ‘blacked out’ but still have motor function, I usually begin to recall my actions later in ‘bits and pieces’.

One sure sign of a beta man? He allows his woman to go out drinking with strangers and doesn’t bounce her trick self to the curb the first time it happens.

 

[Xantippe]

Wait, if we are presupposing he was a murderer and rapist then she should be happy that she didn’t go out with him.

I expect she is very happy about that decision.

Anyway, I’m still waiting to see what social cost she paid for rejecting him.

Did I say she did?

I was illustrating the fact that women are alternately criticized for being too security-minded/not security-minded enough. Women can get whiplash from the be nice!/be careful! dilemma. For example, you keep calling it a “light-hearted” joke when it was extremely creepy–as every single female poster so far has pointed out.

How can I spin this so my husband doesn’t divorce me and end the gravy train?

If it was just consensual sex, she could just keep her mouth shut and enjoy whatever gravy train there is. And who says there is a gravy train?

Also, how does her wanting to kill herself fit into your story?

Basically, you’ve had to rewrite the whole thing to fit your preferences.

I’m really not sure how you’re getting from “I was passed out and woke up to him having sex with me” to “I cheated,” unless the baseline assumption is that the woman must be lying.

Right.

I eventually fell asleep and I woke up to Jack asking me if I wanted him to stop. I can only piece together small bits of what happened from then on but we certainly had sex.

She knows that sex happened–but it doesn’t sound like she has any memory of having consented to it.

The range of possibilities is that either she did agree but doesn’t remember or that she didn’t consent at all. In neither case does “Jack” come out smelling like a rose.

One sure sign of a beta man? He allows his woman to go out drinking with strangers and doesn’t bounce her trick self to the curb the first time it happens.

“Three nights ago, I got extremely intoxicated while out with a friend and texted my husband to tell him I was crashing at her house. We spend the night playing video games with her boyfriend, their roommate, and his friend “Jack.””

She was drinking with a female friend and stayed at the friend’s house, where there was one stranger, namely the roommate’s friend Jack.

Also, you realize that as a Catholic man, you might be signing up for life-long celibacy if you did that “kick to the curb” thing? Also, isn’t that what they call “frivorce” in the manosphere?

 

[Theo520]

–I also think that men who act like a cat being taken to the bathtub whenever consent is being talked about probably aren’t that safe for women to be around. These are not difficult concepts, and fighting vigorously against social expectations of decent behavior do not give me a lot of confidence about how people like that behave and have behaved in their private life. Again, the tea and consent video is not at all long or difficult–don’t do sexual things with people who don’t clearly want sexual things done to them! It’s not hard.

I wonder if this comment is aimed at me, and I’m perplexed. I don’t see my position as any different than your tea video (excellent video BTW), where consent is clearly given, or not, each time tea is made. It made excellent points all the way through the video. It also focused on immediacy of consent and not enthusiasm of consent, though a good partner will learn to read when a weak yes should be double checked and the person may not really want tea.

 

[ChunkMonk]

For example, you keep calling it a “light-hearted” joke when it was extremely creepy–as every single female poster so far has pointed out.

My other post is awaiting moderation (gotta love CAF) but maybe this one will get through.

Why was it extremely creepy? Even the girl in question didn’t describe it that way. She said she got pissed because she felt he was making fun of her for not wanting to go on a hike with him. It only became extremely creepy when I called it a light-hearted joke, and only that because you are desperate to deflect away from the original point, which was that she recieved zero criticism for refusing to go out with the guy.

That’s also why you went from: 'this poor guy is shooting himself in the foot" to “she is lucky she escaped from that obvious murderer.”

 

[ChunkMonk]

I also think that men who act like a cat being taken to the bathtub whenever consent is being talked about probably aren’t that safe for women to be around.

This is why some men react that way. Because any debate about the concept and its application results in one side of the debate being called rapists.

 

[Theo520]

"I was once sitting for lunch in college, reading a book with headphones in. A total stranger sat down and started talking at me (not TO me) while I stared at him wondering why he was interrupting the three things I was doing (reading, tuning out the world, and eating). I just kept staring until he told (not asked) me that he’d like to get to know me better (hilarious! He hadn’t let me get a word in edgewise). I gave him my email and a day later got a message asking me to go on a hike with him. I politely declined, and truthfully explained that I was relatively new to the area and did not feel comfortable going into the woods with a complete stranger as a first date/outing, and that perhaps we could do something more in-town? He responded, “That’s a shame, I guess I packed my ropes and chains for nothing.”

“Clearly this guy thought he was poking fun at my nervousness and thought perhaps he could break it down with some funny stuff. Uh, no. I do not know you at all, and you are not making yourself look good at all by failing to read me and beyond that, you’re making fun of my attempt to look out for myself. He got the block. I’m under zero obligation to give a total stranger the benefit of the doubt because I cannot read his [BLEEP]ing mind.”

This is story is yet another data point for the BE VERY CAREFUL!/Awwww, why don’t you trust me? double bind that women not infrequently encounter in dating. You’re supposed to be careful, but when you are careful, many men find it upsetting.

Edited to add: You’ll notice that what this woman did was an impeccably “grass-roots” approach. She told the guy exactly why she didn’t like his fun date idea. Also, there was an admirable level of “personal responsibility” in the fact that she made a good call about her personal safety. Nonetheless, it’s likely that the guy involved didn’t like her “grass-roots,” “personal responsibility” approach.

I had to follow the links back up to read the story. I think it’s more an example of stereotyping men than people putting women to a double standard.

The guy seemed to be in that small group of male predators we’ve discussed. The response by the vast majority of males would be “why did you give him your contact info after you got bad vibes?” instead of agreeing with his retort.

Stop ascribing the response of clear predators trying to be manipulative to represent the thinking of all men. We don’t care that women are blunt in this situation. Most men would have laughed and responded with a “safe” first date when hiking was declined.

If the guy in the story wasn’t a predator, he still needs to work on his social skills, another good reason for the girl to turn him down.

 

[starshiptrooper]

That and the standard feminist talking point is that we have to teach men not to rape, the obvious implication being that men are either malicious or maladjusted by default. It just reeks of condescension.

 

[PetraG]

My other post is awaiting moderation (gotta love CAF) but maybe this one will get through.

Why was it extremely creepy? Even the girl in question didn’t describe it that way. She said she got pissed because she felt he was making fun of her for not wanting to go on a hike with him. It only became extremely creepy when I called it a light-hearted joke, and only that because you are desperate to deflect away from the original point, which was that she recieved zero criticism for refusing to go out with the guy.

That’s also why you went from: 'this poor guy is shooting himself in the foot" to “she is lucky she escaped from that obvious murderer.”

Why do you think TSA is not amused by people joking about bringing a bomb onto an airplane?
Really, statistically speaking, how often does someone have a bomb? How often has someone EVER had a bomb?

What do you think their agenda is? Why are they so humorless about it?

 

[PetraG]

This is why some men react that way. Because any debate about the concept and its application results in one side of the debate being called rapists.

Some other men don’t debate it because their attitude is, “If there is any chance whatsoever that I might make my date even feel uncomfortable or rushed or whatever, I want to know about it. Of course she ought to be able to feel she will have no trouble convincing me that ‘no’ means ‘no.’ If she is the kind who is disappointed because I won’t be playing some little game with her, oh well. Better than hearing after the fact that she felt pressured into doing something she didn’t want to do. Call me nutty, but I want to know.”

 

[PetraG]

The:

he asked me if I wanted him to stop, and then we had sex

part was kind of a big clue that she was willing to consent after ‘regaining’ consciousness. Also, the fact that the situation is now coming back in ‘bit and pieces’ is pretty hard evidence that she was, at most, ‘blacked out’ but not actually non-responsive. When I have passed out drunk, I don’t remember anything ever. When I have been ‘blacked out’ but still have motor function, I usually begin to recall my actions later in ‘bits and pieces’.

One sure sign of a beta man? He allows his woman to go out drinking with strangers and doesn’t bounce her trick self to the curb the first time it happens.

So, are you planning on marrying a beta woman who is going to tolerate another round in your extensive experience with black-out and near-black-out binge drinking?

I am beginning to see why you’re so concerned about the trouble a binge drinker might get into while pursuing another binge drinker. Sorry. Your risky behavior, your risk. I won’t feel sorry for you if you choose that state as a good time to get behind the wheel of a car and I won’t feel sorry for you if you choose that state as a good time to try to hustle a woman off to to a bedroom. You’re on your own.

 

[Theo520]

Why do you think TSA is not amused by people joking about bringing a bomb onto an airplane?

Really, statistically speaking, how often does someone have a bomb? How often has someone EVER had a bomb?

What do you think their agenda is? Why are they so humorless about it?

I think the comments are inappropriate but I also understand the source. Sometimes you are confronted with feedback that is so absurd in how you see yourself that you express it out loud, obviously without thinking of second order effects.

If you actually knew them, you might laugh at the ‘bomb’ comment. TSA must do their job though and that person will never make the same mistake twice.

People make such comments or gestures without really thinking through their location

TSA Gave 19 Year Old Sorority Girl Full Pat Down Over Texas Tech Finger Guns Sign - View from the Wing

 

[ChunkMonk]

I was illustrating the fact that women are alternately criticized for being too security-minded/not security-minded enough.

Where was she criticized for her decision?

Also, how does her wanting to kill herself fit into your story?

Classic female tactic. After doing something terrible, pull the ‘I’m gonna kill myself’ manuever to elicit sympathy. I promise you that if her husband finds out about the cheating, this will be first card she pulls. And I equally promise she will have no intention whatsoever of actually comitting suicide.

She was drinking with a female friend

No, she was drinking with a female friend, a boyfriend of her friend (counts as a stranger) and am actual stranger. Bonus points if they were at a bar, surrounded by strangers.

Also, you realize that as a Catholic man, you might be signing up for life-long celibacy if you did that “kick to the curb” thing?

The trick is to not put a ring on trash.

Also, isn’t that what they call “frivorce” in the manosphere?

No.

 

[ChunkMonk]

Why do you think TSA is not amused by people joking about bringing a bomb onto an airplane?

Did I say the girl should be amused by the dumb joke?

“If there is any chance whatsoever that I might make my date

I bolded the relevant pieces. Your personal behavior does not dictate the rules of the road.

So, are you planning on marrying a beta woman who is going to tolerate another round in your extensive experience with black-out and near-black-out binge drinking?

Cute, but I don’t drink to excess anymore.

I am beginning to see why you’re so concerned about the trouble a binge drinker might get into while pursuing another binge drinker.

Clearly you aren’t. Take a guess how many girls I’ve pursued, drunk or not, in the last two years? I’ll give you a hint, it is less than one.

Your risky behavior, your risk.

Funny how that is fine as a standard for men, but suggest it for women and suddenly every feminist and her white knight starts sputtering.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Funny how that is fine as a standard for men, but suggest it for women and suddenly every feminist and her white knight starts sputtering.

Because what you fail to see is that women simply have much more to lose. At worst a guy gets an accusation flung at him…that’s about the worst thing that can happen to a guy. Women face far more dire consequences.

 

[ChunkMonk]

At worst a guy gets an accusation flung at him

Actually at worst he could be murdered by an angry boyfriend/husband or put in prison and raped himself.

Anyway, shouldn’t the person with more to lose be more careful? Your assertion here supports my contention that women should be all the more risk-averse.

 

[Xantippe]

I wonder if this comment is aimed at me, and I’m perplexed. I don’t see my position as any different than your tea video (excellent video BTW), where consent is clearly given, or not, each time tea is made. It made excellent points all the way through the video. It also focused on immediacy of consent and not enthusiasm of consent, though a good partner will learn to read when a weak yes should be double checked and the person may not really want tea.

Not at all!

I’ve appreciated your discussion, even when we disagreed.

 

[Xantippe]

That’s also why you went from: 'this poor guy is shooting himself in the foot" to “she is lucky she escaped from that obvious murderer.”

She made very good decisions.

He might be a good guy or might not be a good guy. She doesn’t know. All she knows is that he chose a date venue that made her feel unsafe, and then doubled down on it by making a rape/serial killer “joke” about himself instead of choosing a more appropriate venue. He may be a good guy who foolishly said things that made her feel unsafe, or he may be a bad guy who said things that make her feel unsafe because deep down, that’s who he really is. In neither case is he a guy who exerts himself to make her feel safe and comfortable about spending time with him, which is a pretty basic first date and relationship skill. So, there’s no upside to spending more time with this kind of guy.

If he’s a bad guy, long may he continue to wave those red flags. If he’s genuinely a good guy, hopefully he’ll learn to stop scaring women.

 

[Xantippe]

That and the standard feminist talking point is that we have to teach men not to rape, the obvious implication being that men are either malicious or maladjusted by default. It just reeks of condescension.

I have yet to hear anything from either you or ChunkMonk that demonstrates that you have any respect for consent.

So, are you planning on marrying a beta woman who is going to tolerate another round in your extensive experience with black-out and near-black-out binge drinking?

I was thinking a bit more about this case (the Dear Prudence letter where the woman crashed at her friend’s house after drinking and woke to find the friend’s roommate’s friend doing stuff to her).

–First, whatever he did to her while she was asleep was non-consensual.
–I was thinking a bit more about the circumstances and realized that the waking from sleep may be nearly as much a factor as being intoxicated. There can be a very mentally fuzzy transition state during the waking up process. I don’t know about you all, but I’m capable of saying some very weird things when I’m waking up. The mind simply isn’t in gear immediately after waking. I’ve also (and this may be relevant) had some experiences with my husband where we both wake up in the middle of the night, I have an apparently animated, coherent conversation with him–and then in the morning I remember nothing, because I wasn’t awake yet. I think the fact that she was woken by the guy doing stuff to her explains a lot of why her understanding of the sequence of events is so patchy–it’s not just that she had been drinking.

Edited to add: There’s also a sort of physical inertia upon waking, where one can’t instantly start reacting to a situation, and the reflexes are slowed. Depending on the timing, there could have been plenty of time for “Jack” to finish what he was doing while apparently solicitously asking her if it was OK–a sleepy person has very little sense of time. The more I think about this, the less I like Jack.

 

[Werbenjagermanjensen]

I am beginning to see why you’re so concerned about the trouble a binge drinker might get into while pursuing another binge drinker. Sorry. Your risky behavior, your risk. I won’t feel sorry for you if you choose that state as a good time to get behind the wheel of a car and I won’t feel sorry for you if you choose that state as a good time to try to hustle a woman off to to a bedroom. You’re on your own.

You mean you’re on your own except for the women who decide to hook up while they’re under the influence of drugs or alcohol. You don’t seem to be ok with letting them live with their choices.

The women involved in these situations didn’t have booze poured down their throats. They’ve gone out to a bar where people congregate to drink to excess, dance erotically, and go home with strangers. They are the ones putting on the hustle not falling victim to it. No need to pretend that they don’t know what they’re getting themselves into.