vskipper;
While I’m aware of arguments made elsewhere, for the topic of discussion in this thread, it would help if arguments were either remade or a link was provided to where those discussions were held, so that people reading this thread could go and look at that for edification on the subject. Simply saying “I said this elsewhere” or “People talked about this before” does not help anyone, and is said as if to suggest the discussion has already been resolved.
In like manner, if you are going to make accusations and statements like Jesus and Paul contradicted each other (which they most certainly did not), be prepared to demonstrate it. However, since you seem to think the position of Christianity stands on brittle glass, please permit me to present a demonstration of some of the contradictions between the Quran and the Bible:
Who named the animals?
Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name. [Genesis 2:19]
And He taught Adam the names of all things… [S. 2:31]
Did all of Noah’s family survive the flood?
Then the LORD said to Noah, "Enter the ark, you and all your household, for you alone I have seen to be righteous before Me in this time”…Then Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons’ wives with him entered the ark because of the water of the flood…and only Noah was left, together with those that were with him in the ark. [Genesis 7:1, 7, 23]
So the Ark floated with them on the waves (towering) like mountains, and Noah called out to his son, who had separated himself (from the rest): “O my son! embark with us, and be not with the unbelievers!” The son replied: “I will betake myself to some mountain: it will save me from the water.” Noah said: “This day nothing can save, from the command of Allah, any but those on whom He hath mercy!” And the waves came between them, and the son was among those overwhelmed in the Flood. [S. 11:42-43]
Who wrote the Psalms?
Many of the psalms, such as Psalm 72, were written by Solomon, while others, such as Psalm 46-49 and 84-85 and 87-88, were written by the sons of Korah, and others, such as Psalm 50 and 73 and 75-83, were written by Asaph.
We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma’il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms. [S. 4:163]
Where was Jesus born?
And she gave birth to her firstborn son; and she wrapped Him in cloths, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn. [Luke 2:7]
And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree… [S. 19:23]
Did Jesus die on the cross?
And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. [Matt 27:50]
And Jesus cried out with a loud voice, and breathed His last. [Mark 15:37]
…Having said this, He breathed His last. [Luke 23:46]
…And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit. [John 19:30]
That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not [S. 4:157]
I have more I can provide, but I present this as a sampling. This does not cover what was brought up earlier, which was that the Quran presents contradictory theology as well in regards to Christian understanding of Christ, God, etc. You might again argue, “Some Jews say there’s contradictions between the Old and New Testament!” That may be, and that’s a discussion worthy of another thread (like
this one, where it’s discussed), but right now we’re talking about the Quran in relationship to the previous revelations. Again, the apostles didn’t go around arguing with Jews and accusing them of taking out verses or corrupting their scripture to take out anything about Jesus - they argued from the previous revelations. We don’t see this with the Quran - the Quran is presumed to be the standard by which we are to use. Why would God change His strategy? Why should we simply believe, at face value, the Quran comes from God? Again, that has to be established before that is believed.
Now in regards to your comment here:
As to the writings you are telling me that you are holding it as unaltered because essentially, “We got some that were close to when they had the first 'un.”? That really what you are saying here? Wow!
Sarcasm is not an argument and helps no one. In any case, what I was saying was that we have more manuscripts (over 5500) for the New Testament than any other work of antiquity, with more manuscripts closer to the original dating of the authors than any other work of antiquity. We can say with greater confidence what the Gospel of John originally said than we can with Caesar’s
Gallic Wars or Plato’s
Republic. According to the standard of textual criticism, you would have to be intellectually honest and say that we likewise have no idea what Caesar wrote, nor what Plato wrote.
I then compared that to the Quran, because you had asked where the original manuscript of the Torah and Gospel were. Can you tell me where, in the world, I can find the location of the original copy of the Quran, as Mohammad held it in his hands and showed to people while he was still alive. Can you provide me such a copy? If you cannot, can you then, consistently, say that there’s a possibility the Quran was corrupted? If not, then we have a case of a double standard, and double standards are a sign of something which is not grounded on truth.
My point in the question was to make one think about the Muslim contention that we can’t trust the Torah or the Gospel because we have no originals. If Muslims were consistent with that argument, they’d have to admit that we couldn’t trust the Quran either.