Has the practice of Communion in the hand really strengthened and clarified ourfaith?

[Exporter]

pnewton:

Unthinking? (1)The fact that the Holy Eucharist strengthens or faith is unthinking? Most of us here are Catholics and I am sure this is a given for most.

Grubby hands, defiled hands? I know of no verse that says the hands are exceptionally holy, but, since you are going all sola scriptura on me, where does it say that everyone’s tongue is holy?

As far as touching the Sacred host, do we not all realize that this is unavoidable if we are to receive communion? We must touch the host either with our tongue or our hand.

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Your snide remarks insinuating that I am a Sola Scriptura Protestant are not recieved with welcome. I have been Roman Catholic since April of 1955 (50 years) How long have you been a Roman Catholic.? Not long I think for you have no differntiation between correct recieving and recieving in the hand. You talk like a “new” boy.
(1) I did NOT say the Eucharist doesn’t strengthen faith. You didn’t read my post. I said the placing of the Eucharist in grubby hands does not add to faith. You said by recieving in the grubby hands your faith will grow. Why?

That absolutely an unthinking statement. You tell me just how faith is strengthened by putting the Eucharist in the grubby hands of the laity. In my opinion recieving by hand by adding on this silly statement," Hey, it will make faith grow".
pnewton if you are the spokesman for how we are to recieve now, please answer this question:

Explain to all of us how recieving the Eucharist in the hand will engender more faith than in any other method.

 

[pnewton]

Exporter:

Explain to all of us how recieving the Eucharist in the hand will engender more faith than in any other method.

This is the core problem with this poll. Of course receivng in the hand does not engender more faith than other methods, it just engenders more faith than not receiving. But this poll does not set one against the other, but only asks the question from one side, hence its bias.

 

[pnewton]

*
I am NOT a Protestant!

I never said you were. I said you went all sola scriptura as in “I read no Scripture that tells us that the hand is especially holy.” So what. Since when is scripture reference needed for disciplinary matters. No if you wish to find insults, read back over your own posts and count how many personal attacks you made against me, including your initial attack of calling my response unthinking. It is fortunate that I do in fact think more than just react.

It takes a lot not to respond in kind.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

BulldogCath:

TNT and many I see on this board and whom I speak to after mass all seem-to some varying degree or another seem to have issues with what is going on today in our church. Some are Ok with the NO mass but know there are problems with the Priests and teachings-to the other side who want nothing to do with the NO mass and all of Vatican II. Notwithstanding, Does anybody here think that our voices are being heard? I write letters to my Bishop as do some others I know, but rarely get a response. I recently wrote to the entire diocese over their shameful silence over Terri Schiavo-and have heard nothing. Do we need to take over the church like in St Louis? Just my humble sincere thinking out loud here.

Im glad you said it first. I have had these thoughts for a long time, but I didnt know how to say them.

My position is that the CC needs to get back on track from this lack of respect that people have taken on. The truth is there is zero respect anywhere, especially in America, not just at Mass. But at the same time we have to realize it is not in our hands, we have leaders and we have to follow them. The truth that I have always held on to is that we are nobodies and our opinion means nothing. It is not our job to put on a superman cape and save the Church. The bottom line is that in Rome they rule any way they want and if we dont like it then its tough luck, if we go against what they say then we are not Catholic, and at the very heart of the issue not Christian. This to me is the proof that you cant break off from the CC in any way. I have read that liberalism is a mental disorder, which is very true, but there is also another disease that I see going around and that is the one where people do things like write letters and protest thinking that change will come because of them.

 

[beverly30]

I strongly recommend people to read the book AA-1025. It along with a few other books out there on the topic of Vatican II and possible why and how it came about. This will explain why many of the changes have taken place in the Catholic Church.

To summarize the book. It strongly suggests that since the early 1900’s communists have gone out of their way to destroy the Catholic faith. The best way they saw of accomplishing this was to be on the inside of it. One of the main topics pointed out in that book, was how this priest (who was working for the KGB) felt that one of the greatest accomplishments he could achieve would be to get Catholics to see Communion as more of a meal. ex. taking communion in the hand.

 

[BulldogCath]

So it is a disease to write a letter to the Bishop and the church that I as well as all here support?

Anyone here watch the Luther documentary this week on the History channel? How this devout Monk, doing penance and confession each and every day never thinking he was good enought to get to heaven finally gets his chance to go to Rome. And what does he find? He finds Bishops demanding money for Indulgences from the faithful, he finds all kinds of abuses going on, he sees the Pope squandering the money meant to finish St Peters on his boy lovers so he had to sell church goods to pay off DaVinci and the others as they refused to work any more.

He was crushed. And we all know what he did when he got back to Germany. And he had a right to be crushed. These men we have put in power, the priests, the Bishops, the Popes are human and fallible.

St Thomas taught that it is Our duty not to obey and to speak up and protest when things we feel are not good for the church are being taught and pushed. What about the Arian Heresy? What about Popes in the middle ages whose papacy was bought by the Roman emperors and later the Medici’s?

Let us not kid ourselves here. The church has issues and if you think writing a letter to a Bishop is on par with the mental disorder of liberalism, then I say “Amen to You”!
Catholic Dude:

Im glad you said it first. I have had these thoughts for a long time, but I didnt know how to say them.

My position is that the CC needs to get back on track from this lack of respect that people have taken on. The truth is there is zero respect anywhere, especially in America, not just at Mass. But at the same time we have to realize it is not in our hands, we have leaders and we have to follow them. The truth that I have always held on to is that we are nobodies and our opinion means nothing. It is not our job to put on a superman cape and save the Church. The bottom line is that in Rome they rule any way they want and if we dont like it then its tough luck, if we go against what they say then we are not Catholic, and at the very heart of the issue not Christian. This to me is the proof that you cant break off from the CC in any way. I have read that liberalism is a mental disorder, which is very true, but there is also another disease that I see going around and that is the one where people do things like write letters and protest thinking that change will come because of them.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

BulldogCath:

So it is a disease to write a letter to the Bishop and the church that I as well as all here support?

Anyone here watch the Luther documentary this week on the History channel? How this devout Monk, doing penance and confession each and every day never thinking he was good enought to get to heaven finally gets his chance to go to Rome. And what does he find? …

He was crushed. And we all know what he did when he got back to Germany. And he had a right to be crushed. These men we have put in power, the priests, the Bishops, the Popes are human and fallible.
…

Im just saying that letters and protesting dont work in the real world. And whats this stuff about Luther? That guy wrecked Christianity, he was the devil’s sidekick. If I had to guess, the History Channel was sticking it to the Catholics and appealing to the Prots. So what happened when King David sinned, did the Jews storm the palace? It might have been a shameful thing to the nation, but it wasnt their responsibility to stop David. God appoints people, we dont appoint people. David could do what he wanted, but in the end would have to answer to God. All we can really do is wait and hope to see the day when respect returns.

 

[Exporter]

The Catholic Dude wrote this: “The bottom line is that in Rome they rule any way they want and if we dont like it then its tough luck, if we go against what they say then we are not Catholic, and at the very heart of the issue not Christian. This to me is the proof that you cant break off from the CC in any way. I have read that liberalism is a mental disorder, which is very true,** but there is also another disease that I see going around and that is the one where people do things like write letters **and protest thinking that change will come because of them.”

---

I will address your words that appear in blue color. “Another disease”, and that is “Write Letters”

So you have determined that to write a letter informing a Bishop of irregularities IS A DISEASE. How did you arrive at this conclusion?

You seem to be a social psychologist. Can you give an example of such a letter?

About thirty years ago I wrote our Bishop a letter complaining that his Educational Dir. was closing grades 4 through 8. That letter caused a reevaluation. One year later our great school was open from K to 8 again. I do not think my letter demonstrated a “DISEASE”. I was fighting for my two boys to attend a Catholic School.

 

[Exporter]

A most important post!
To summarize the book. It strongly suggests that since the early 1900’s communists have gone out of their way to destroy the Catholic faith. The best way they saw of accomplishing this was to be on the inside of it. One of the main topics pointed out in that book, was how this priest (who was working for the KGB) felt that one of the greatest accomplishments he could achieve would be to get Catholics to see Communion as more of a meal. ex. taking communion in the hand.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Exporter:

I will address your words that appear in blue color. “Another disease”, and that is “Write Letters”

So you have determined that to write a letter informing a Bishop of irregularities IS A DISEASE. How did you arrive at this conclusion?

You seem to be a social psychologist. Can you give an example of such a letter?

About thirty years ago I wrote our Bishop a letter complaining that his Educational Dir. was closing grades 4 through 8. That letter caused a reevaluation. One year later our great school was open from K to 8 again. I do not think my letter demonstrated a “DISEASE”. I was fighting for my two boys to attend a Catholic School.

Thank God if what you did worked. But then again it was 30 years ago. I know someone where I go to Mass who did write a few letters, and after each one the reply was something along the lines of “this has been forwarded to a committee, who will look into this”, and you know what the problems got worse! If anyone has seen my first few posts on other threads when I said the NO was respectful where I go, it has been getting worse. Also the archdiocese where I live was one who filed for bankrupcy. I never equated liberalism with the other disease, (writing letters was just one aspect). Liberalism is far far worse, there is no comparison. In the context of my original post I said things like “it is not our job to put on a superman cape and save the church”, it is out of our hands.

 

[Exporter]

pnewton,

You wrote,“No if you wish to find insults, read back over your own posts and count how many personal attacks you made against me, including your initial attack of calling my response unthinking”

May I suggest that… you learn to differintiate between an attack on ones ideas and a personal attack! You were not attacked personally. I commented and defined on your rhetoric.

Grow up and read more critically. Yes I said your response was unthinking. I will say it again. Your responce WAS unthinking .You said that touching the Host with the HAND gives more FAITH. That does not show any thinking.

You will not answer questions, why? Your unthinking responce was that you propose that to recieve the Eucharist in the hand causes the recipiants faith to GROW.

Dont you know that it was a Communist infiltrator who had become a priest told his handlers that to force the Catholics to have less respect for the Eucharist would weaken the Church. Well my friend how many years did it take after some started to recieve in the hand for America and the Church to develop evil and serious problems? Touching a Host with the hand DOES NOT create deeper faith for real Catholics. It may mean something to norcotics addicts and sexual deviates. I recieve on the tongue.

 

[tulips]

I think it’s all about reverence. There seems to be lack of it in our Churches. At most of the Churches I’ve gone to when people go up for communion they look almost bored and definately not reverent. I think alter rails should be put back in our Churches and communion on the tongue should be enforced to try to bring people back to the reality that it is the body of Christ we are taking in.

 

[tuopaolo]

ByzCath:

As for Mother Teresa, so what?

Not a fan of Blessed Teresa I see. I think it is wrong to be dismissive of what she teaches like that even if you don’t agree with it.

I will say it again, saints are not infallible in anything that they have said.

Neither is the pope infallible in everything he says but we should still listen to him and respect his teachings. And neither is a math teacher infallible in what he teaches but he is reliable and trustworthy when it comes to math just as a saint is reliable and trustworthy when it comes to her spiritual teachings.

I don’t agree with her but I gave her teaching some thought and you should too instead of saying, “So what?”

 

[pnewton]

tuopaolo:

Not a fan of Blessed Teresa I see. I think it is wrong to be dismissive of what she teaches like that even if you don’t agree with it.

Neither is the pope infallible in everything he says but we should still listen to him and respect his teachings. And neither is a math teacher infallible in what he teaches but he is reliable and trustworthy when it comes to math just as a saint is reliable and trustworthy when it comes to her spiritual teachings.

Since we are dealing here with a disciplinary matter, infallability is not needed. To use your analogy, Blessed Teresa was a wonderful saint and an heck of an administrator. I would trust her in her own spiritual teaching, e.g. the need for adoration, and give her due consideration in other matters as a good Catholic. She was not a doctor of the church, though. That would be going to the math teacher for help in gym, or the history teacher for help understanding English.

We understand that the hands of the priest are holy and dedicated to God for a holy purpose, can we also not agree that the whole life of our priests and bishops are equally dedicated to God and service of His church? If our shepherds in this country, whose authority comes from God, do not deem it vital to convert us all to reception on the tongue, then we do some Catholics?

 

[WhiteDove]

Communion in the hand is directly responsible for the culture of death that is flourishing all around us as we speak. Since Communion in the hand became acceptable, look at the moral decay we see in the world. I doubt if the priesthood scandal would have occured if people were still only receiving on the tongue. If people received on the tongue, then they would be better people and be a light for Christ in the world.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

WhiteDove:

Communion in the hand is directly responsible for the culture of death that is flourishing all around us as we speak.

What???

Since Communion in the hand became acceptable, look at the moral decay we see in the world.

Ah, I see it…

A typical Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc fallacy.

Just because communion in hand came before does not mean that it is the cause of what came after.

By your logic I could say that the Fall of Communism in Russia is because of Communion in Hand as it happened after.

As for the argument that recieving the Eucharist in the hand will engender more faith than in any other method.

I would say that no method of reception engenders more faith than any other. What does is the reception, regardless of how one recieves, is what builds faith.

The Latin Church aboished Communion in the Hand in the distant past because of abuses that were occuring, at least that is how I understand it, not because one way “engendered more faith” than another.

So this is a bogus argument.

If you want to use the abuse argument then I can understand that but let me say that returning to Communion on the Tongue will not do away with abuse.

Some of you are aware of my past, there was a time when I was a neo-pagan/wicca and also dabbled in magick. I read and heard from individuals who did this sort of abuse, they would recieve on the tongue and later spit it out as they believed that if they recieved on the tongue people would view them as more pious and not watch them closely so they could do as they wanted.

 

[WhiteDove]

Dear Byz,
Eating bread also leads to drug abuse. It’s obvious, because 99.9% of drug abusers have first eaten bread. Duh…

 

[beverly30]

I rented it a few months back, and really found it interesting. I didn’t know for sure what to believe, but figured at least some of it most be accurate. What I took from it was that there were some horrible, corrupt things going on in the Catholic Church and perhaps God saw this- and that’s why Luther was inspired to break away and give people another route. But I believe( I might be wrong) but I believe the Council of Trent was written shortly after this happening to make sure the correct teachings of the Catholic church were written down for people to see so that would not happen again.- In doing this, my personal belief is that then these people who fell away from the Catholic Church because of the corruptness should have then felt it in their hearts that things were right again and returned. But I didn’t live back then so who am I to give an opinion about that really…

St Thomas taught that it is Our duty not to obey and to speak up and protest when things we feel are not good for the church are being taught and pushed. I strongly believe that there might be a time in the not so distant future where this teaching will be of even more relevance than it might seem to be today. There is a definate reason that the Fatima apparitions have been downplayed- specifically the third secret- It is our duty as Catholics to research this apparition that has been approved by the Catholic Church, and consider the possibility that we have not been given the third secret as it was told to Lucy. Please read AA-1025, The Devil’s Final Battle.

 

[pnewton]

ByzCath:

What???

Ah, I see it…

A typical Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc fallacy.

I think you were reeled in by one of WhiteDove’s jokes (remember what day it is) What I find so hilarious is that her “logic” so closely resembles the arguements of some as to fool you.

Let’s put a postive spin on it. The results of Vatican II was the fall of communism in eastern Europe and an end of the cold war.

 

[BulldogCath]

Beverly

I agree with you in total. I didnt know what to believe, but it was obvious that what he saw going on in the church made him flip his wig-while he was back in Germany scrubbing the monastery with a toothbrush to be a good Catholic-all kinds of corruption was going on.

I do not agree at all with what he did afterwards-he did not make “his” reformed church stronger, but he made it actually weaker. He lost all faith in the Pope and Bishops and made the church a more scritural based , man made Lutheran church.

If people want to deny what is happening today in the church with what happened 500 years ago then so be it. But at least we were blessed soon after the reformation with Pope’s who saw the need to get back to basics, root out the corruption and call the Council of Trent which lasted for a few decades if my memory serves me correctly and put an end to the nonsense.

And now we are back at where we were before Trent-with Modernist-who I correlate with Luther in many ways-having infiltrated and Protestanized the church and now we are reaping what these have people have sowed-and the Faithful Traditionalists are now actually on the outside looking in-and they are now the schismatics!!! Imagine that!

beverly30:

I rented it a few months back, and really found it interesting. I didn’t know for sure what to believe, but figured at least some of it most be accurate. What I took from it was that there were some horrible, corrupt things going on in the Catholic Church and perhaps God saw this- and that’s why Luther was inspired to break away and give people another route. But I believe( I might be wrong) but I believe the Council of Trent was written shortly after this happening to make sure the correct teachings of the Catholic church were written down for people to see so that would not happen again.- In doing this, my personal belief is that then these people who fell away from the Catholic Church because of the corruptness should have then felt it in their hearts that things were right again and returned. But I didn’t live back then so who am I to give an opinion about that really…

St Thomas taught that it is Our duty not to obey and to speak up and protest when things we feel are not good for the church are being taught and pushed. I strongly believe that there might be a time in the not so distant future where this teaching will be of even more relevance than it might seem to be today. There is a definate reason that the Fatima apparitions have been downplayed- specifically the third secret- It is our duty as Catholics to research this apparition that has been approved by the Catholic Church, and consider the possibility that we have not been given the third secret as it was told to Lucy. Please read AA-1025, The Devil’s Final Battle.