Has women in the work force helped or hurt the family?

[irishpatrick]

Does it matter? I’m still a woman!

Only in that I was speaking about moms.

 

[irishpatrick]

Not long ago in history if a young woman (say senior in high school) was asked what she wanted to do with her life, she would often say: find a good husband and raise a family. Those woman did in fact find fullfillment in that choice.

Today, if the same age women were asked the same question, the answer would likely be something like: I want to get my degree, possibly a go on to get my masters, then on towards my professional career, then do some travelling, then save some money, and then if I am ready I’d like to find a good guy and maybe get married and have perhaps one or two children.

Times indeed have changed.

We have gone from a culture in which families and kids were wanted and expected, to a culture in which the creation of a family and kids are a choice and a burden that must be postponed until all of the required pieces fall into place.

It seems many Christians have forgotten that we are hear to help build God’s kingdom, and that cannot be done without raising Christian families with kids, and preferably many kids.

 

[SeaShoreGirl]

Not long ago in history if a young woman (say senior in high school) was asked what she wanted to do with her life, she would often say: find a good husband and raise a family. Those woman did in fact find fullfillment in that choice.

Today, if the same age women were asked the same question, the answer would likely be something like: I want to get my degree, possibly a go on to get my masters, then on towards my professional career, then do some travelling, then save some money, and then if I am ready I’d like to find a good guy and maybe get married and have perhaps one or two children.

Times indeed have changed.

We have gone from a culture in which families and kids were wanted and expected, to a culture in which the creation of a family and kids are a choice and a burden that must be postponed until all of the required pieces fall into place.

It seems many Christians have forgotten that we are hear to help build God’s kingdom, and that cannot be done without raising Christian families with kids, and preferably many kids.

So? What about men? why put all of this on a woman? Men would say “get a job and find a wife” Now many men won’t even think of getting a girlfriend until their mid 20’s nevermind settling down with a wife and family.

PLUS-The real trouble started with industrilization and the destruction of family. MOST men worked “at home” for most of history…when factories and other things came around men left their homes and worked in them insted of farms. When factories expanded women and children went to work away from home, too.

We live longer and have more to do with our lives. I think that when you know you’re going to die by 45 or 50 that puts a greater impitus on getting married. When you know that in the best cases only half your children will reach adulthood that puts greater prescidence on having more children. This is not an issue of the past 30 or even 60 years…it’s been centuries in the making.

 

[GraceDK]

BTW, whether or not a person (mom or dad) feels personally fullfilled is completely and utterly beside the point once a couple has children. The raising of the children become 100% the vocation and priority then, and it is these sorts of things that I feel have been. From the birth of their first child their lives cease being their own.

So are you saying that when a man becomes a father his wife should no longer see him apart from that role as, say, a husband (with whom to have a romantic dating life), a man who has a ton of interests and a job that benefits himself, his family and society?

Same about women… You see her only as a mother?

I find this very problematic and I think you are wrong.
I also realize you didn’t get what you wanted out of this thread. You were hoping that we, the conservative Catholic women, would defend the societal structures of a past golden age (which doesn’t exist) where women were at home and fulfilled.
What you saw was that we are all different and that many if not most of us wish as women to have intellectual, careeer and adult challenges and respect along with being mothers and wifes who are respected. Few wish to live 100 or 200 years ago where women had no independance, were forced into just one role, couldn’t leave if they were beat to a pulp, had to sleep with their husband until 12 kids: even if she begged him to stop she didn’t have an equal say etc… Yes we have such, not rare, testimonies here in Europe from the lives of women back then.

Some have said that SAHMs are being looked down on in modern culture. However, I live in a Catholic conservative environment where its clear that the judgement goes the other way… women are to feel guilty if they are not both SAHMs and even home schoolers… if they are working or send their child to an institution they are at least implicitly asked to defend their choices.

 

[Em_in_FL]

I understand why women work…yet how can you say a woman is mothering her child when she is at work? She clearly is not with the child, so how could she be mothering then?

It is, btw, the same with fathers, they are not fathering their children when they are at work. In both cases the mom and dad are helping to provide financial needs, but that is not the same as mothering or fathering…at least not in my view. That is the basis for these talks. Since both parents work, the kids get no direct parenting until much later in the day, if it all. The question is: do parents want relative strangers who hold values not identical to their own spending 40-60 hours of awake time with their kids, or do those parents want to insttill their values into their children? It cannot work both ways.

You know, I created this thread, and I regret it now because I realize that it is profoundly silly. People do not change, so what’s the point, you know? They make their own life choices, they are good with that, end of story. Me posting a thread about these things will not produce anything at all. Nothing. It was quite profoundly silly of me to create this thread, but I did not realize that until just now. It is not as if anyone here cares what I think anyway, it is hard enough to get Catholics to care what the Church and Christ teaches, my views do not even approach the radars of Catholics here (and why should they)!

Oh well–live and learn, right?

I think the idea of childcare providers having that much of an influence isn’t realistic. Seriously, how many “values” are infants and toddlers really learning at those ages? How to share, how to be kind and gentle, how to love others… these are all values that can still be instilled. It’s not like we’re trying to instill heavy duty stuff at this age. Really throughout the day when mothers are home… what do you think is happening? Moral and religious discussions? Or are they singing songs and learning letters and reading books and taking naps and playing in the sandbox…???
The whole idea of kids even being more attached to these childcare workers is just absurd in reality… unless the parents are so completely absent even when they’re home, which is just plain bad parenting. Kids KNOW from INFANCY who mom and dad are and they can be spiritually/physically/emotionally attached, regardless of who cares for them during certain hours of the day.
I’ll tell you that it is certainly possible to instill incredible values in our children, no matter how “part time” others claim our parenting to be… my kids join with us in family prayer, talk about God and learn from our example. We work hard, treat others with love and respect, and worship and honor our God and faith.
I know this is difficult to understand from an outside perspective. I’m not questioning your desire to lead families to goodness and holiness by discussing certain lifestyle choices. But speaking against something you have no experience with is a little presumptive that only your personal experience is good and holy.

 

[Em_in_FL]

BTW, whether or not a person (mom or dad) feels personally fullfilled is completely and utterly beside the point once a couple has children. The raising of the children become 100% the vocation and priority then, and it is these sorts of things that I feel have been. From the birth of their first child their lives cease being their own.

I disagree. MARRIAGE is a SACRAMENT. PARENTING is not.
Becoming a parent is a beautiful gift and a fulfillment of that sacrament, but it is not, in and of itself, a sacrament.
My husband will always be my “vocation”… having children is a gift of that vocation.

 

[Em_in_FL]

Not long ago in history if a young woman (say senior in high school) was asked what she wanted to do with her life, she would often say: find a good husband and raise a family. Those woman did in fact find fullfillment in that choice.

Today, if the same age women were asked the same question, the answer would likely be something like: I want to get my degree, possibly a go on to get my masters, then on towards my professional career, then do some travelling, then save some money, and then if I am ready I’d like to find a good guy and maybe get married and have perhaps one or two children.

Times indeed have changed.

We have gone from a culture in which families and kids were wanted and expected, to a culture in which the creation of a family and kids are a choice and a burden that must be postponed until all of the required pieces fall into place.

It seems many Christians have forgotten that we are hear to help build God’s kingdom, and that cannot be done without raising Christian families with kids, and preferably many kids.

None of this requires a woman to stay at home…
ALL of this requires a refocusing on the true aspects of the Sacrament of Marriage…

 

[irishpatrick]

I disagree. MARRIAGE is a SACRAMENT. PARENTING is not.
Becoming a parent is a beautiful gift and a fulfillment of that sacrament, but it is not, in and of itself, a sacrament.
My husband will always be my “vocation”… having children is a gift of that vocation.

The sacrament of marriage expects children so long as the couple is able. Children are not the only reason for marriage, it is behyond doubt the primary reason. So, having children is part of marriage.

 

[Em_in_FL]

The sacrament of marriage expects children so long as the couple is able. Children are not the only reason for marriage, it is behyond doubt the primary reason. So, having children is part of marriage.

And infertile couples???
Careful…

 

[irishpatrick]

None of this requires a woman to stay at home…
ALL of this requires a refocusing on the true aspects of the Sacrament of Marriage…

There are no absolutes. However, it is all about priorities. Kids are no longer a priority for many people…they are just another item on their personal life fullfillment lists. So many times we here young people state what they will do before even thinking about a family: college, masters, money, travelling, friends with benefits by any number, setting up a great single life, buying all the “stuff” a single person desires today, and then somewhere waaay down the list is the thought of maybe getting married and maybe having a kid or two as trophies.

Being a stay-at-home (not long ago) was seen as THE honorable vocation or career for women to desire…not so anymore. Women seem to be more concerned about proving that they too can be like men in today’s world. Now, before you bite my head off (that would hurt), these statements very likely might not apply to you, yet they do apply to many, likely the majority.

I feel we have lost the eternal perspective on life as we focus on our own personal fullfillment and desires. This applies to men too. Not long ago men were expected to get a job and raise a family…they did that at young ages, 18-20 years old. Today men are rarely even giving thought to that until they reach 28-30 years old, and even then it is becoming increasingly rare for men to care about raising families. Yet, not long ago it was a near absolute expectation of our young men.

If people want to help build the kingdom, they should get married, have as many kids as they can and raise them all strongly in the faith and in strong Christian moral values. But, any thought to helping build the kingdom is not even on the radar of most young people today and it is the so-called baby boomers who have taught them that (baby boomers: the most selfish generation in USA history).

As I said: times are indeed changing and I do think it is to the good.

 

[irishpatrick]

And infertile couples???
Careful…

As I said (had you read it), I did write: so long as the couple is able.

 

[Katie966]

There are no absolutes. However, it is all about priorities. Kids are no longer a priority for many people…they are just another item on their personal life fullfillment lists. So many times we here young people state what they will do before even thinking about a family: college, masters, money, travelling, friends with benefits by any number, setting up a great single life, buying all the “stuff” a single person desires today, and then somewhere waaay down the list is the thought of maybe getting married and maybe having a kid or two as trophies.

Do you really think getting a degree and saving some money, or even traveling, are bad things to do before starting a family?

Even more, do you think women should not go to college?

 

[trinichiqn]

I just want to step in here and give Em_in_FL a huge round of applause for your last few posts. A mother is always a mother, a father is always a father.

My mother was at home I can definitely tell you that I did not spend my day with her, she did what she had to do and I did what I had to do, it’s not like you are attached to your parent when they stay home, most of the time they are trying to get rid of you so they can get things done, I certainly didn’t want to stay attached to her, I had my friends and I had my books.

 

[Em_in_FL]

There are no absolutes. However, it is all about priorities. Kids are no longer a priority for many people…they are just another item on their personal life fullfillment lists. So many times we here young people state what they will do before even thinking about a family: college, masters, money, travelling, friends with benefits by any number, setting up a great single life, buying all the “stuff” a single person desires today, and then somewhere waaay down the list is the thought of maybe getting married and maybe having a kid or two as trophies.

Being a stay-at-home (not long ago) was seen as THE honorable vocation or career for women to desire…not so anymore. Women seem to be more concerned about proving that they too can be like men in today’s world. Now, before you bite my head off (that would hurt), these statements very likely might not apply to you, yet they do apply to many, likely the majority.

I feel we have lost the eternal perspective on life as we focus on our own personal fullfillment and desires. This applies to men too. Not long ago men were expected to get a job and raise a family…they did that at young ages, 18-20 years old. Today men are rarely even giving thought to that until they reach 28-30 years old, and even then it is becoming increasingly rare for men to care about raising families. Yet, not long ago it was a near absolute expectation of our young men.

If people want to help build the kingdom, they should get married, have as many kids as they can and raise them all strongly in the faith and in strong Christian moral values. But, any thought to helping build the kingdom is not even on the radar of most young people today and it is the so-called baby boomers who have taught them that (baby boomers: the most selfish generation in USA history).

As I said: times are indeed changing and I do think it is to the good.

I agree with what you’re saying… but I don’t think the “fault” can be placed on women going back to work, because clearly (by many examples) there are working women who completely fulfill your ideals for an honorable Christian family.
The correlation is weak at best, and insulting at worst.

There are many sins in the world that lead people away from ideal Christian behavior. I think it’s important to focus on the ones that have clear correlations and are clearly taught in the teachings of our faith, not ones that are based on personal experiences and interpretations.

 

[irishpatrick]

Do you really think getting a degree and saving some money, or even traveling, are bad things to do before starting a family?

Even more, do you think women should not go to college?

I think that there is no such thing as a good time to start a family and have kids. Too many people want the perfect situation to get started, yet that never happens. In fact, I think the longer people wait, the less likely they will want to raise many kids…people get set in their ways fairly quickly.

I have no issue with women or men going to college (though I think today’s colleges are mainly morally bankrupt places in which students often lose their faith).

I feel that we no longer think about why we are here. So many people think we are here to live our 50, 60, 80, or so years and to extract as much as we can from this place and this life. That is a lie that many people have bought. We are here to learn about and know God, to love God, to love others, to get to Heaven and to help build God’s kingdom. Careers may or may not contribute to those REAL goals.

 

[irishpatrick]

I agree with what you’re saying… but I don’t think the “fault” can be placed on women going back to work, because clearly (by many examples) there are working women who completely fulfill your ideals for an honorable Christian family.
The correlation is weak at best, and insulting at worst.

There are many sins in the world that lead people away from ideal Christian behavior. I think it’s important to focus on the ones that have clear correlations and are clearly taught in the teachings of our faith, not ones that are based on personal experiences and interpretations.

One only feels insulted if one allows that (I am guilty of that myself, many times). I am clearly not attempting to insult anyone, so no-one should feel insulted, they should just voice disagreement or agreement based on their own views of these matters.

I agree that women are not to blame. I never thought they were. I think we need to look at everything, including the notion of one parent staying home. I have zero doubt that kids do better when a parent is home for them, whether that is the wife or husband is up to each couple to decide, and yes it is true that in many cases it is impossible for a parent to stay at home. However, I also believe that when possible, it should be the mother staying at home–sorry, I just feel women are better at it then men (not always, but in general).

 

[Em_in_FL]

I agree that women are not to blame. I never thought they were. I think we need to look at everything, including the notion of one parent staying home. I have zero doubt that kids do better when a parent is home for them, whether that is the wife or husband is up to each couple to decide, and yes it is true that in many cases it is impossible for a parent to stay at home. However, I also believe that when possible, it should be the mother staying at home–sorry, I just feel women are better at it then men (not always, but in general).

That’s a lovely opinion and probably the ideal for many!
However, we have to be extremely careful not to suggest that those who are in a different situation - whether by choice or not - are automatically doing something against the teachings of the faith, or God forbid that their situations, in and of themselves, are causing them to sin. We can all live fruitful, holy, faith-filled lives in ANY situation… we just have to make the choice to do so. In this specific case, regarding mothers working or staying at home - there is no teaching in our faith guiding us one way or another. Surely, having a stay-at-home mother makes the teachings of our faith *easier *to follow in many ways, but it is not BECAUSE of that decision to stay home that they are holy. It’s just easier in many ways. Many families struggle in a multitude of ways and carry very heavy crosses in life. That doesn’t mean they are making poor choices or are living sinful lives.

 

[irishpatrick]

That’s a lovely opinion and probably the ideal for many!
However, we have to be extremely careful not to suggest that those who are in a different situation - whether by choice or not - are automatically doing something against the teachings of the faith, or God forbid that their situations, in and of themselves, are causing them to sin. We can all live fruitful, holy, faith-filled lives in ANY situation… we just have to make the choice to do so. In this specific case, regarding mothers working or staying at home - there is no teaching in our faith guiding us one way or another. Surely, having a stay-at-home mother makes the teachings of our faith *easier *to follow in many ways, but it is not BECAUSE of that decision to stay home that they are holy. It’s just easier in many ways. Many families struggle in a multitude of ways and carry very heavy crosses in life. That doesn’t mean they are making poor choices or are living sinful lives.

I have not spoken of sin in this thread. Perhaps others have, but not me. Frankly, I just do not concern myself with sin regarding this subject, mainly because one can avoid sin and still not be doing the best they can–we all do that on a regular basis.

I also never said women staying at home makes them holier…it can I suppose, but that is not something I am concerned with. Any willing sacrifice for others can be a means to attaining personal holiness.

My overall view is that we have lost our eternal perspective. We live as if we have forgotten why we are here and it shows in how our culture is today. Today self is quite important, sacrifice for others and for God and His Kingdom are not strived for by very many people. That is slowly catching-up with us and it will one day cause our ruin if we do not do some serious soul searching and make many changes. Personal fullfillment is nice and feels great, but it rarely contributes to what is truly important. Men and women do these things at similar rates, so it is not a man/woman thing, it is a humanity thing.

In situations in which a couple can allow one parent to stay, I feel they should do that, and preferably the mom if possible. Kids require sacrifice.

 

[Em_in_FL]

I have not spoken of sin in this thread. Perhaps others have, but not me. Frankly, I just do not concern myself with sin regarding this subject, mainly because one can avoid sin and still not be doing the best they can–we all do that on a regular basis.

I also never said women staying at home makes them holier…it can I suppose, but that is not something I am concerned with. Any willing sacrifice for others can be a means to attaining personal holiness.

Okay… so your original question was "Has women in the work force helped or hurt the family?", right?

What do you mean by the words “helped” or “hurt”?
In what regard?
I doubt you’re speaking financially… my assumption was (based on the fact that this is a Catholic board) spiritually. Spirituality is based on becoming more holy and removing sin from our lives…

 

[Em_in_FL]

My overall view is that we have lost our eternal perspective. We live as if we have forgotten why we are here and it shows in how our culture is today. Today self is quite important, sacrifice for others and for God and His Kingdom are not strived for by very many people. That is slowly catching-up with us and it will one day cause our ruin if we do not do some serious soul searching and make many changes. Personal fullfillment is nice and feels great, but it rarely contributes to what is truly important. Men and women do these things at similar rates, so it is not a man/woman thing, it is a humanity thing.

Ahh… okay… so to answer your own original question then… “women in the work force” have ____ impact…???

Sounds like no direct correlation to me from your own answer!