Has women in the work force helped or hurt the family?

[Katie966]

How do you believe the Pope would answer this question:

Should mothers work fulltime outside the home if they have the financial resources to stay at home and care for their children directly?

I know you didn’t address this at me, but I think he would say:

Thank you, women who work! You are present and active in every area of life-social, economic, cultural, artistic and political. In this way you make an indispensable contribution to the growth of a culture which unites reason and feeling, to a model of life ever open to the sense of “mystery”, to the establishment of economic and political structures ever more worthy of humanity.

Oh wait, he did say that. The question you are asking is not really a valid question. What is best for the well-being of one family is not necessarily best for another.

 

[Em_in_FL]

Should mothers work fulltime outside the home if they have the financial resources to stay at home and care for their children directly?

I think it depends on the situation.
I was raised by a stay-at-home mom with severe depression/anxiety issues. This was an enormous burden on us kids, painful times, not anything I would consider “nurturing”. She wasn’t all-bad, by any means, but I think having a “break” (meaning, us kids having a break away from her!) would have made her a better mother. At least that’s my perspective from a semi-abusive childhood standpoint.

Question for all women,

It seems in today’s world women want not only equality (which they should have), but they also want sameness in genders and absolute equality in all results. So, let me pose this faith related, though not children related question as a curious aside to this thread:

As a woman, are you for or against female altar servers during Catholic Masses (please no neutral answers)?

I was an alter server as a girl… but that was just what was popular in the church at the time.
I turn to the church for guidance on this… now, as I’ve learned more about the position of alter server - how it is *supposed *to “groom” boys for the priesthood, I believe that it really should be for boys only.

But I’m curious… you’re turning this thread about women working into one about liberal church practices… are you assuming that working mothers all tend to be liberal in their thoughts??? Again… you’re a pretty presumptive person.

 

[irishpatrick]

You could just as easily be addressing this to me, because I’m also “pushed to the point of exhaustion”… but I think you’re being MORE than a little presumptive to assume that my husband is in any way “slacking off”…
My husband gets up early every day to go to morning Mass… he works 11-12 hour days, rarely home before 8pm. He is the most amazing spiritual head of our family - probably spiritually stronger than a majority of Catholic men in this world.
You’re also presumptive to be making statements on our financial condition about paying for childcare. Circumstances change over time… at first, we needed my additional income to pay for basics… by the time our oldest was ready for Kindergarten we were doing financially better, but made the decision to have me continue to work so we could afford to send them to our wonderful Catholic parish school. If I were not working, this would not be possible. Sure, most of my income goes toward childcare for the younger ones and Catholic school tuition… but we could never afford to even send them to the Catholic school in the first place if I weren’t working.

Your presumptions are very narrow-minded.

I can only respond to what I know through information given on these posts. If I am wrong about your husband, or any other person, than I apologize for that slight.

I cannot judge your situation, only you and God can do that. I am merely raising points here. If you feel comfortable with your choices, then you feel comfortable and you should not really care what I say.

I believe there are many situations in which a parent could easily stay at home to care for childen, and there are other situations in which if the couple was willing to sacrifice they also could have one parent stay at home. I am sure you know all that, and I am sure you and your husband analyzed all those points…the points I make here do not apply to you and you should feel free to ignore my points since they clearly do not apply to your situation.

 

[irishpatrick]

I think it depends on the situation.
I was raised by a stay-at-home mom with severe depression/anxiety issues. This was an enormous burden on us kids, painful times, not anything I would consider “nurturing”. She wasn’t all-bad, by any means, but I think having a “break” (meaning, us kids having a break away from her!) would have made her a better mother. At least that’s my perspective from a semi-abusive childhood standpoint.

I was an alter server as a girl… but that was just what was popular in the church at the time.
I turn to the church for guidance on this… now, as I’ve learned more about the position of alter server - how it is *supposed *to “groom” boys for the priesthood, I believe that it really should be for boys only.

But I’m curious… you’re turning this thread about women working into one about liberal church practices… are you assuming that working mothers all tend to be liberal in their thoughts??? Again… you’re a pretty presumptive person.

You make grand assumptions about me and then you call me a “presumptive person.” Hmmm Interesting.

I could not care less about left/right or liberal/conservative with these issues. People are people and not all things fall into easy buckets.

 

[Em_in_FL]

I can only respond to what I know through information given on these posts. If I am wrong about your husband, or any other person, than I apologize for that slight.

I cannot judge your situation, only you and God can do that. I am merely raising points here. If you feel comfortable with your choices, then you feel comfortable and you should not really care what I say.

I believe there are many situations in which a parent could easily stay at home to care for childen, and there are other situations in which if the couple was willing to sacrifice they also could have one parent stay at home. I am sure you know all that, and I am sure you and your husband analyzed all those points…the points I make here do not apply to you and you should feel free to ignore my points since they clearly do not apply to your situation.

Thanks… but the fact that you’re just “bringing up these points” means you have a rather biased view on something you have no experience or understanding of.
I’m sure you’re “observing” a lot of people in your life who you assume are making selfish parenting choices… just from your outside view. I’m sure you’d assume that about my family as well.
You really need to stop judging people from outward appearances… you may learn something.

 

[Serap]

Please provide your sources

Correction: there was no rule of thumb per se (I stand corrected), but until Queen Elizabeth, it was English common law that a man not beat his wife with exessive force. Kind of like Islamic laws today.

I can find it if you give me some time.

Edited to Add…found a bit of info. It’s difficult to find on the web.

The ‘rule of thumb’, however, turns out to be an excellent example of what may be called a feminist fiction. Is is not to be found in William Blackstone’s treatise on English common law. On the contrary, British law since the 1700s and our American laws predating the Revolution prohibit wife beating, though there have been periods and places in which the prohibition was only indifferently enforced.

menstuff.org/issues/byissue/dvmyths.html

 

[irishpatrick]

I know you didn’t address this at me, but I think he would say:

Oh wait, he did say that. The question you are asking is not really a valid question. What is best for the well-being of one family is not necessarily best for another.

I think the Pope would say that whatever is **best for the children **is what is best for the family, regardless of what the mother and father want. JPII loved children beyond any Pope in memory and I firmly believe he would prefer to see kids raised directly by practicing Catholic parents. One can applaud the work of women 9which is 100% valid), while also calling for the proper attention being given to the raising of Catholic children.

I also do not think JPII was a particular fan of the way western culture was heading in general.

 

[Serap]

I think the Pope would say that whatever is **best for the children **is what is best for the family, regardless of what the mother and father want. JPII loved children beyond any Pope in memory and I firmly believe he would prefer to see kids raised directly by practicing Catholic parents. One can applaud the work of women 9which is 100% valid), while also calling for the proper attention being given to the raising of Catholic children.

I also do not think JPII was a particular fan of the way western culture was heading in general.

Oh Patrick…get yer head out of yer arse…(Irish accent)

 

[trinichiqn]

Fine, I could address some historical exagerations you are making in your post, but will instead let it go.

How do you believe the Pope would answer this question:

Should mothers work fulltime outside the home if they have the financial resources to stay at home and care for their children directly?

To this “unity of the two” God has entrusted not only the work of procreation and family life, but the creation of history itself. While the 1994 International Year of the Family focused attention on women as mothers, the Beijing Conference, which has as its theme “Action for Equality, Development and Peace”, provides an auspicious occasion for heightening awareness of the many contributions made by women to the life of whole societies and nations. This contribution is primarily spiritual and cultural in nature, but socio-political and economic as well. The various sectors of society, nations and states, and the progress of all humanity, are certainly deeply indebted to the contribution of women!

and

But I am convinced that the secret of making speedy progress in achieving full respect for women and their identity involves more than simply the condemnation of discrimination and injustices, necessary though this may be. Such respect must first and foremost be won through an effective and intelligent campaign for the promotion of women, concentrating on all areas of women’s life and beginning with a universal recognition of the dignity of women.

From JP II’s Letter

 

[whatevergirl]

Are you talking about women in ‘‘corporate america?’’ Because back in our ancestors’ days…most FAMILIES worked together on farms and such. There weren’t labels such as ‘stay at home’ mom…this is an americanized notion in the past half century, and is not felt the world around.

I have not been on here in a while…come back, and see that some things never change. Same debate. Women have somehow ‘ruined’ the family unit by daring to get educated and seek employment out of the home. There are even biblical examples of women who worked in the marketplace and took care of their families.

 

[Em_in_FL]

I think the Pope would say that whatever is **best for the children **is what is best for the family, regardless of what the mother and father want. .

I agree…
But HOW that is done is not a teaching of the church.

We are guided on how to treat our children…

“The duties of parents” is a great section in the Catechism:
usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2.shtml#2221

But none of this explicitly suggests that someone must “stay at home” with them.
While this may be a very practical way for many families to IMPLEMENT those teachings, it’s CERTAINLY not the only way, and isn’t even suggested as an “ideal” because it’s pointless to put limitations on areas that are amoral…

 

[irishpatrick]

Thanks… but the fact that you’re just “bringing up these points” means you have a rather biased view on something you have no experience or understanding of.
I’m sure you’re “observing” a lot of people in your life who you assume are making selfish parenting choices… just from your outside view. I’m sure you’d assume that about my family as well.
You really need to stop judging people from outward appearances… you may learn something.

LOL, you just judged me and you tell me not to judge. Funny.

Let me give one unnamed example:

I know of a Catholic couple with three children. They are worth millions. Their home is 15,000 square feet (perhaps larger). The mom and dad both work and they pay a nanny to care for their kids fulltime. They did put their kids in Catholic schools. The dad recently got a new job out of state, and he has to remain there 5 days a week, hundreds of miles from home. Their youngest child has become quite ill lately, all stomach issues and it appears it is because that child misses the father who is hundreds of miles away. That dad, when asked, has no intention of quiting his job because he likes the job and he wants to keep their lifestyle right where it is. Likewise, the mom has no intention on quiting because she too loves her job.

Now, I cannot judge their souls (that is God’s work), but I sure can judge their actions. Is it not obvious that if they dumped that ridiculous house, and simplified their lives, that the dad could then be closer to home and maybe the mom could take a lesser job and be around the kids more as well?

The kids should be the focus, not the parents. When people choose to have kids, their live sin many ways cease to be their own.

Now, is that an extreme example? Yes, it sure is. Yet, it does shine a light on what I am speaking of. Many couples can analyze their own situations and see if they can improve their time with their children. Many couples do this on a smaller level. I know many other examples, and most are beyond doubt.

 

[Katie966]

I think the Pope would say that whatever is **best for the children **is what is best for the family, regardless of what the mother and father want. JPII loved children beyond any Pope in memory and I firmly believe he would prefer to see kids raised directly by practicing Catholic parents. One can applaud the work of women 9which is 100% valid), while also calling for the proper attention being given to the raising of Catholic children.

Which is exactly what I said- that what is best for one family doesn’t necessarily work for another. You are coming across as extremely judgmental, making a blanket statement about what all women should do, and assuming that the women on this thread and probably women you know are not making the best choices for their children if they work for pay.

In reality, you have no idea about anyone’s circumstances. There are families where it makes financial sense for the woman to go to work. There are families where the dad is just better with the kids. There are families where both parents work in order to send their kids to a Catholic school. There are families where the mom has more to give to the kids (emotionally speaking) when she has been working at a paid job. On and on.

Your question on this thread was “Has women in the work force helped or hurt the family”? Over and over, people keep telling you that individual circumstances matter. Instead of assuming the worst about everyone, why not assume that each mother cares about her kids and makes choices that are best for them?

 

[irishpatrick]

I agree…
But HOW that is done is not a teaching of the church.

We are guided on how to treat our children…

“The duties of parents” is a great section in the Catechism:
usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2.shtml#2221

But none of this explicitly suggests that someone must “stay at home” with them.
While this may be a very practical way for many families to IMPLEMENT those teachings, it’s CERTAINLY not the only way, and isn’t even suggested as an “ideal” because it’s pointless to put limitations on areas that are amoral…

So, we must always have an infallible proclamation from the Church in order to act? Is that what you are saying?

 

[Em_in_FL]

LOL, you just judged me and you tell me not to judge. Funny.

Let me give one unnamed example:

I know of a Catholic couple with three children. They are worth millions. Their home is 15,000 square feet (perhaps larger). The mom and dad both work and they pay a nanny to care for their kids fulltime. They did put their kids in Catholic schools. The dad recently got a new job out of state, and he has to remain there 5 days a week, hundreds of miles from home. Their youngest child has become quite ill lately, all stomach issues and it appears it is because that child misses the father who is hundreds of miles away. That dad, when asked, has no intention of quiting his job because he likes the job and he wants to keep their lifestyle right where it is. Likewise, the mom has no intention on quiting because she too loves her job.

Now, I cannot judge their souls (that is God’s work), but I sure can judge their actions. Is it not obvious that if they dumped that ridiculous house, and simplified their lives, that the dad could then be closer to home and maybe the mom could take a lesser job and be around the kids more as well?

The kids should be the focus, not the parents. When people choose to have kids, their live sin many ways cease to be their own.

Now, is that an extreme example? Yes, it sure is. Yet, it does shine a light on what I am speaking of. Many couples can analyze their own situations and see if they can improve their time with their children. Many couples do this on a smaller level. I know many other examples, and most are beyond doubt.

:doh2:
The very fact that you’ve written out this example proves my point.:hypno:

 

[Em_in_FL]

So, we must always have an infallible proclamation from the Church in order to act? Is that what you are saying?

No, not even close… but we cannot JUDGE a particular situation when actions are amoral.

 

[whatevergirl]

I agree…
But HOW that is done is not a teaching of the church.

We are guided on how to treat our children…

“The duties of parents” is a great section in the Catechism:
usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2.shtml#2221

But none of this explicitly suggests that someone must “stay at home” with them.
While this may be a very practical way for many families to IMPLEMENT those teachings, it’s CERTAINLY not the only way, and isn’t even suggested as an “ideal” because it’s pointless to put limitations on areas that are amoral…

Exactly. It’s not based on Biblical truths…It’s not Catholic–that a woman must stay at home with her kids…

It’s obvious that families should come to a determination of what’s in the best interest of the kids. Moms quitting their jobs to stay at home…while I did this in my kids’ early years…is not a Catholic tenet. Nor is it a christian tenet. But, in many christian circles…men still look at women as unequal. And shouldn’t be working outside the home. That’s really where the ‘notion’ came from. Pope JP2 speaks of something entirely different. Always doing what’s in the best interest of the family unit. Sometimes, dad doesn’t make enough money…and mom needs to work. Men shouldn’t be made to feel inferior over this…likewise, women shouldn’t be made to feel badly if they need to work.

 

[Serap]

Are you talking about women in ‘‘corporate america?’’ Because back in our ancestors’ days…most FAMILIES worked together on farms and such. There weren’t labels such as ‘stay at home’ mom…this is an americanized notion in the past half century, and is not felt the world around.

I have not been on here in a while…come back, and see that some things never change. Same debate. Women have somehow ‘ruined’ the family unit by daring to get educated and seek employment out of the home. There are even biblical examples of women who worked in the marketplace and took care of their families.

Hey Whatevergirl!!! Long time no hear!!! Nice to see your post today!!!

Yeah…women are eeeeeevil…

Working mothers is nothing new…why is this even an issue

Hey, a good priest friend of mine once defended me when I told him I felt guilty for working. He told me that he has seen many many children turn out wonderfully despite a working mother. He said that it depends on the family as a whole; not whether or not mom and dad are working.

Then he mentioned that it takes a village to raise a child.

 

[GraceDK]

Question for all women,

It seems in today’s world women want not only equality (which they should have), but they also want sameness in genders and absolute equality in all results. So, let me pose this faith related, though not children related question as a curious aside to this thread:

As a woman, are you for or against female altar servers during Catholic Masses (please no neutral answers)?

Thats easy to answer.

But tell me, who was standing at the Supreme Alter, the Cross?

I’ll quote for you: “By the cross of Jesus stood his mother, and the sister of his mother, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala”. - Gospel of John.

 

[irishpatrick]

Which is exactly what I said- that what is best for one family doesn’t necessarily work for another. You are coming across as extremely judgmental, making a blanket statement about what all women should do, and assuming that the women on this thread and probably women you know are not making the best choices for their children if they work for pay.

In reality, you have no idea about anyone’s circumstances. There are families where it makes financial sense for the woman to go to work. There are families where the dad is just better with the kids. There are families where both parents work in order to send their kids to a Catholic school. There are families where the mom has more to give to the kids (emotionally speaking) when she has been working at a paid job. On and on.

Your question on this thread was “Has women in the work force helped or hurt the family”? Over and over, people keep telling you that individual circumstances matter. Instead of assuming the worst about everyone, why not assume that each mother, each family, cares about her kids and makes choices that are best for them?

I have said many times that if these points do not apply, then they do not apply. I cannot know your situation, nor do I want to know. I have said many that these are generalizations…not absolutes.

I do assume the best of everyone. Perhaps you need to think about if these points do not apply to you, why are you still responding? Example: say you are in line in a store to purchase product X. Say a person comes over the store speakers and says, “Everyone over 70 years old get into line five please.” Assuming you are not over 70, I would expect that you would hear the speaker’s message, but you would then ignore it because it did not apply to you since you are not over 70. **Likewise, if my general statements do not apply to you, then you should just ignore them. **