Hate the sin, love the sinner?

[Farien]

Have you ever considered how does that sound to those “sinners”? When you speak of homosexual practices, the words like “disgusting”, “perverted”, “unnatural”, “hateful” and alike are abundant. People and their actions cannot be artifically separated. When you express your “disgust” toward what they do, that obviously “spills over” and you express your disgust toward them. So, do not be surprised if they see that your “love” toward them is just an empty word, and what you say about them is anything but “charitavle”, and “kind”. Something to think about?

 

[Joe_5859]

Welcome to CAF!

I think it is true that nowadays, people have difficulty separating out their actions from who they are. However, I certainly hope that people can make such a separation with me. I know that I do things that I wish I had not done and I would very much not want to be defined by such actions.

 

[Farien]

Welcome to CAF!

Thank you very much!

I think it is true that nowadays, people have difficulty separating out their actions from who they are. However, I certainly hope that people can make such a separation with me. I know that I do things that I wish I had not done and I would very much not want to be defined by such actions.

Well, there are two distinct questions here.

One is “how much are we defined by our actions?”… and that is more of a philosophical type of question. Obviously one does not wish to be “defined” by some of their actions, which they disassociate with - after some contemplation. In other words which are the “exceptions” and not the “norm”. But why not be “defined” (I cannot find a better word, sorry) by those actions which you “like”, which you proudly “wear”?

However, this was NOT the intent of the OP.

I keep wondering what those people feel, whose activities and whole lifestyle (which they have no problem with) are described as “disgusting”, “stomach turning”… etc? Do you think that they percieve these words as “loving”, caring, charitable, kind? When they hear the words: “we love you, but we find your actions disgusting…” what do you think they feel?

 

[R_C]

We use the same words for heterosexual practices that are geared towards lust. It’s not the orientation. The issue is another one. Perhaps you should try to understand what Holy Church teaches about chastity and lust before even trying to criticize it, and perhaps you should try to learn how Holy Church has preached respect for homosexuals while the secular world, well, did and some still do some rather horrendous things to them.

P.s.: I know here you are not criticizing the teachings but rightfully criticizing a certain uncharitable way of speaking unbecoming of a Crhistian. I just thought it proper to shift the focus of the discussion to the actual teachings - see later post on this.

 

[Ophelia23]

I see the point you are trying to make, and it is a fair one. Hearing that our actions are wrong is inherently difficult. We don’t like being told by our parents what to do. We do not like having rules to follow. Think of the pharisees and the tax collectors, and how deeply offended and outraged they were by Jesus’s correction of them. It is, in many ways, built into our nature to think that everything is ok as long as *we *think it is. With that in mind, I can easily understand how someone would become offended by our Catholic teaching, because it is, in its very nature, saying that their actions are wrong. However, being hurt or offended does not make you right. It does not make your actions ok, just because you are a good person. We all have vices that pull us away from Light and toward the enemy, and my heart and prayers go out for all of us poor souls on earth that we might align ourselves more fully to God’s Holy Will for all of us.

 

[1_with_God]

an oxymoron…

 

[Ophelia23]

We use the same words for heterosexual practices that are geared towards lust. It’s not the orientation. The issue is another one. Perhaps you should try to understand what Holy Church teaches about chastity and lust before even trying to criticize it, and perhaps you should try to learn how Holy Church has preached respect for homosexuals while the secular world, well, did and some still do some rather horrendous things to them.

 

[R_C]

I keep wondering what those people feel, whose activities and whole lifestyle (which they have no problem with) are described as “disgusting”, “stomach turning”… etc? Do you think that they percieve these words as “loving”, caring, charitable, kind? When they hear the words: “we love you, but we find your actions disgusting…” what do you think they feel?

Here you make the same error you are addressing: you condemn the whole from a part. Do you know what the actual teaching of Holy Church on this matter is?

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

Do the words “disgusting” and “stomach-turning” appear to be respectful, compassionate, and sensible? Surely not. Then if a Catholic speaks them, particularly if addressing someone with homosexual tendencies, he or she is in error and is not validly representing the position of the Church on these matters.

See, we could go a lot over this, and compare the approach of the Catholic Chuch to that of the secular world, and indeed you’d be surprised to find out which of the two truly loves and protects its members, regardless of their sexual orientation. But of course, none of this will happen until you keep thinking that those uncharitable remarks reflect the official stance and the teachings of the Church.

Also, you may also want to be (since you indeed appear to be very reasonable) a bit understanding from a psychological standpoint: it is a most natural reaction that people fear or reject what they don’t understand; naturally, we expect Catholics to understand a lot of things since they must uphold a lot of very ancient truths, but unfortunately that is not always the case: there is a lot of ignorance in the air, and not enough charity to overcome it. Thus people can find “disgusting” and “stomach-turning” the most random variety of things, while others will find them “normal”, and others will simply refrain from passing a judgment and be understanding. In short: be patient before such remarks, for they do not arise from Christian tradition or from Catholicism…they are a simple expression of the limitations of human nature.

 

[Acerunner]

Just because you disapprove of an action committed by someone does not necessarily mean you disapprove of the entire person. I don’t like my brother living with his ex girlfriend and have made my views abundantly clear. That doesn’t mean I don’t still love him.

 

[Christianus_Dei]

Have you ever considered how does that sound to those “sinners”? When you speak of homosexual practices, the words like “disgusting”, “perverted”, “unnatural”, “hateful” and alike are abundant. People and their actions cannot be artifically separated. When you express your “disgust” toward what they do, that obviously “spills over” and you express your disgust toward them. So, do not be surprised if they see that your “love” toward them is just an empty word, and what you say about them is anything but “charitavle”, and “kind”. Something to think about?

Well how would you expect us to react to such practices? They are immoral, but that doesn’t mean homosexuals are evil, or that we all act as if they are.
People aren’t what they’ve done. If so, you have no idea how dark and hopeless a place most of us here would be in. We act with disgust towards our sins, we may also do with others, I suppose.

 

[edwest2]

Have you ever considered how does that sound to those “sinners”? When you speak of homosexual practices, the words like “disgusting”, “perverted”, “unnatural”, “hateful” and alike are abundant. People and their actions cannot be artifically separated. When you express your “disgust” toward what they do, that obviously “spills over” and you express your disgust toward them. So, do not be surprised if they see that your “love” toward them is just an empty word, and what you say about them is anything but “charitavle”, and “kind”. Something to think about?

Hi,

You are right. Some Christians use the wrong words and feel a need to openly express an attitude that is not kind or friendly or helpful. I hope you understand that gay sexual practices were a totally private matter in the past. I didn’t know any of my gay coworkers were gay until someone or they themselves said so, but there was no further discussion. There was no need. For example, I know my parents had sex but it was never discussed.

Over time, for some reason, gay pride parades appeared with gay men wearing women’s shoes or next to nothing with makeup, ladies’ wigs or outfits and so on. Why? Then gay marriage appeared on the ballot. Why? No one ever needed my permission to do anything behind closed doors. Today - gay sex is in your face. If a politician is elected to office, The Advocate posts a picture that defines him or her solely on their sexual practices: “the first openly bisexual woman,” or “openly gay Senator” or whatever. How we have sex improves our job skills/performance? That doesn’t make any sense.

So, I think some people would be and are disgusted about in your face sexuality. I was talking to a close friend who had ended a phone conversation with her sister shortly before I called. She told me that her sister told her about some sexual matters that were going on between her and her husband. She told me, “I don’t know why she had to tell me that” with an obviously disturbed tone in her voice. Of course, she didn’t tell me what “that” was. It bothered her and she told her sister to get outside help with whatever it was.

As far as love and sin, allow me to present the following:

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0014.html

Sincerely,
Ed

 

[twoangels]

Have you ever considered how does that sound to those “sinners”? When you speak of homosexual practices, the words like “disgusting”, “perverted”, “unnatural”, “hateful” and alike are abundant. People and their actions cannot be artifically separated. When you express your “disgust” toward what they do, that obviously “spills over” and you express your disgust toward them. So, do not be surprised if they see that your “love” toward them is just an empty word, and what you say about them is anything but “charitavle”, and “kind”. Something to think about?

I am a sinner. You are a sinner. Everyone who responds to this is a sinner. Unless we’re talking about the Blessed Virgin or Jesus, we are talking about sinners. Since we are all sinners, our love for everyone is to love the sinner and hate the sin. That goes in regard to ourselves and any person we meet. If we fail at loving the sinner and hating the sinner we fall into one of two categories. Either we deny the existance of the sin to give ourselves and others the impression that we have more charity in our hearts than we do. Or we reveal publically the lack of charity in our hearts. But the person who hides their lack of charity is not more virteous than the person who is forthcoming. The challenge is to acknowledge that we must learn to love the sinners as Christ loves them. This means growing in charity and becoming better people. It means allowing ourselves to be filled with God’s grace so that we are capable of loving those who sin directly against us in the most hurtful ways. To fail at this at times is human. It is part of being a sinner.

We are not called to be nice people. We are called to be made perfectly Holy. Until our hearts have been completely purified from all pride, wrath, envy, sloth, gluttony, greed and lust, we will never be perfect enough to enter Heaven. Christ offers us that opportunity.

 

[Farien]

We use the same words for heterosexual practices that are geared towards lust. It’s not the orientation. The issue is another one. Perhaps you should try to understand what Holy Church teaches about chastity and lust before even trying to criticize it, and perhaps you should try to learn how Holy Church has preached respect for homosexuals while the secular world, well, did and some still do some rather horrendous things to them.

P.s.: I know here you are not criticizing the teachings but rightfully criticizing a certain uncharitable way of speaking unbecoming of a Crhistian. I just thought it proper to shift the focus of the discussion to the actual teachings - see later post on this.

Thank you for your comment. I was trying to point out the differences in the verbiage when talking about homosexual activities and heterosexual ones. I am glad you also see the difference, and the phrases are rather harsh, in other words, they do not reflect “love”, they reflect a very negative attitude.

 

[Farien]

I see the point you are trying to make, and it is a fair one. Hearing that our actions are wrong is inherently difficult.

Could be, though I never had a problem when someone pointed out the error of my ways. But there is a world of differebce between giving a friendly advice and a seriously hurtful and downgrading assessment. Don’t you agree?

 

[benjohnson]

an oxymoron…

If I’m understanding you correctly, are you saying that “hate the sin, and love the sinner” is wrong?

IF so, I pray that this thought is incorrect - I would say our salvation depends on God loving us despite our many sins.

 

[Farien]

Do the words “disgusting” and “stomach-turning” appear to be respectful, compassionate, and sensible? Surely not. Then if a Catholic speaks them, particularly if addressing someone with homosexual tendencies, he or she is in error and is not validly representing the position of the Church on these matters.

That is fine. The only question remains is why so many people remain silent when they see the different kinds of wordings? Indeed they could point out - gently, of course - that one should not use inappropriate language, and the incorrectly chosen words are anything but “loving”.

My observation is that the affected people (homosexuals) do not percieve any kind of “love” from a vast majority of the catholic community. They see denigrating words, rejection, and hostility. As you say that is not what the church teaches, but I do not see a whole lot of condemnation of such improper behavior.

 

[Farien]

Just because you disapprove of an action committed by someone does not necessarily mean you disapprove of the entire person. I don’t like my brother living with his ex girlfriend and have made my views abundantly clear. That doesn’t mean I don’t still love him.

It all depends on the words you use. As always, the devil’s in the details.

 

[hazcompat]

Words and Prayers of St. Isaac the Syrian

Let yourself be persecuted, but do not persecute others.
Be crucified, but do not crucify others.
Be slandered, but do not slander others.
Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep: such is the sign of purity.
Suffer with the sick.
Be afflicted with sinners.
Exult with those who repent.
Be the friend of all, but in your spirit remain alone.
Be a partaker of the sufferings of all, but keep your body distant from all.
Rebuke no one, revile no one, not even those who live very wickedly.
Spread your cloak over those who fall into sin, each and every one, and shield them.
And if you cannot take the fault on yourself and accept punishment in their place,
do not destroy their character.

Peace

 

[Farien]

You are right. Some Christians use the wrong words and feel a need to openly express an attitude that is not kind or friendly or helpful.

Thank you kindly. That was my point.

I hope you understand that gay sexual practices were a totally private matter in the past. I didn’t know any of my gay coworkers were gay until someone or they themselves said so, but there was no further discussion. There was no need. For example, I know my parents had sex but it was never discussed.

Over time, for some reason, gay pride parades appeared with gay men wearing women’s shoes or next to nothing with makeup, ladies’ wigs or outfits and so on. Why? Then gay marriage appeared on the ballot. Why? No one ever needed my permission to do anything behind closed doors. Today - gay sex is in your face. If a politician is elected to office, The Advocate posts a picture that defines him or her solely on their sexual practices: “the first openly bisexual woman,” or “openly gay Senator” or whatever. How we have sex improves our job skills/performance? That doesn’t make any sense.

So, I think some people would be and are disgusted about in your face sexuality. I was talking to a close friend who had ended a phone conversation with her sister shortly before I called. She told me that her sister told her about some sexual matters that were going on between her and her husband. She told me, “I don’t know why she had to tell me that” with an obviously disturbed tone in her voice. Of course, she didn’t tell me what “that” was. It bothered her and she told her sister to get outside help with whatever it was.

I agree, that certain things are not to be on public display. (Of course, this is a relatively new phenomenon, in older times there was no problem with nudity and public sexual practices, especially in the hot climates).

As far as love and sin, allow me to present the following:

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0014.html

Yes, I read it before, too. Interesting, but it does the same thing you disapprove of concening the “in your face” approach.

Real love involves real hatred: …

Charity, then, is not a mild philosophy of “live and let live”; it is not a species of sloppy sentiment.

It urges you to have “real hatred”, almost a “violent” approach of describing your “hatred” toward certain types of behavior. Sorry, in my world that is not how “love” works. To point out someone’s incorrect behavior is perfectly fine, if done in a friendly and helpful manner - once, but only ONCE!! - but if that advice is not heeded, then the discussion must stop. The bare minimum of respect is to accept that the other party is an adult, who may have made an erroneous decision, but with adulthood comes responsibility. And let me paraphrase the age-old saying: “You are NOT your brother’s keeper”.

 

[Ophelia23]

Could be, though I never had a problem when someone pointed out the error of my ways. But there is a world of differebce between giving a friendly advice and a seriously hurtful and downgrading assessment. Don’t you agree?

Absolutely, I agree. But when you have a legitimate theological conversation about why the act of homosexuality is wrong, we really shouldn’t be using the types of terms you described. I don’t know of anybody who does.