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october_baby
Guest
There seems a attitude with men my age to be passive, and let the woman make all the
decisions. Iâve noticed with men in higher income brackets to say things like âyeah, my
wife is the boss.â And joke or brag about it. I think that feminism has made men gun shy
about being dominate. And it has been noted in conservative magazines that even âalpha malesâ hold feminist views.
decisions. Iâve noticed with men in higher income brackets to say things like âyeah, my
wife is the boss.â And joke or brag about it. I think that feminism has made men gun shy
about being dominate. And it has been noted in conservative magazines that even âalpha malesâ hold feminist views.
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EasterJoy
Guest
Post WWII didnât have the greatest relationship between the generations, so maybe thatâs not the best example to use as the high-water mark for fatherhood. It could even be argued that current parenting mistakes are an over-reaction to some real parenting problems of that time, like the dads who âcoachedâ by screaming at the kids to win and insulting them in front of everyone when they didnât produce on the ball field. Call them wimpy, but not even the best professional teams operate like that any more. A style where constructive-but-positive feedback far outweighs the constructive-but-negative feedback, as it turns out, wins more championships. Go figure, but when it turns out that âwimpyâ wins ballgames, the winners get âwimpy.â There are men who are still trying to figure out how to lead when they donât get to wave their hands around, yell, and scare the pants off the kids like their dads did. Oh, well. Get with the game, it has advanced. The best then would still be the best now, because they werenât the best by accident. The guys who couldnât discipline without yelling like a tyrant werenât the best, not even back then. (If youâre old enough, you remember them. Do you really want that guy back? )
Listening to Bill OâReilly pat himself on the back for how much money he makes could certainly have been skipped. That was off-putting, to say the least. Who wants to hear a talking head congratulate himself on his paychecks? Besides, is a man who does an honest days work and yet barely scrapes out a living worthy of less honor in his own home than Bill OâReilly? Is the husband whose family needs both parents to work in order to afford Catholic schools of lesser value because he isnât bringing home the âfilet mignonâ? Letâs hope not. (The flippant remark by the maybe-not-so-proud father of five about his wife and her annual baby could have been skipped, too. Flippant does not equal clever.)
I donât know who else remembers their grandmother (the one I am thinking of was born before 1900) say, âThe husband is the head of the house, but the wife is the neck, and the neck turns the head whichever way it likes.â Another uncle, shortly after marking 60 years of marriage, remarked to me, âI make all the major decisions, and she decides the little stuff. Weâve been lucky, though, because so far nothing major has come up.â The question of how the decision-making in families is going to be done is not a new one!
In short, I think it is a worthy topic, but that interview advanced nothing. I hope the book is better than that. Sorry, Papa Bear, that was a swing and a miss.
)Listening to Bill OâReilly pat himself on the back for how much money he makes could certainly have been skipped. That was off-putting, to say the least. Who wants to hear a talking head congratulate himself on his paychecks? Besides, is a man who does an honest days work and yet barely scrapes out a living worthy of less honor in his own home than Bill OâReilly? Is the husband whose family needs both parents to work in order to afford Catholic schools of lesser value because he isnât bringing home the âfilet mignonâ? Letâs hope not. (The flippant remark by the maybe-not-so-proud father of five about his wife and her annual baby could have been skipped, too. Flippant does not equal clever.)
I donât know who else remembers their grandmother (the one I am thinking of was born before 1900) say, âThe husband is the head of the house, but the wife is the neck, and the neck turns the head whichever way it likes.â Another uncle, shortly after marking 60 years of marriage, remarked to me, âI make all the major decisions, and she decides the little stuff. Weâve been lucky, though, because so far nothing major has come up.â The question of how the decision-making in families is going to be done is not a new one!
In short, I think it is a worthy topic, but that interview advanced nothing. I hope the book is better than that. Sorry, Papa Bear, that was a swing and a miss.
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Allegra
Guest
That guy hasnât gone anywhere. Heâs still there. The only difference is now his wife is right there next to him, being just as obnoxious.Post WWII didnât have the greatest relationship between the generations, so maybe thatâs not the best example to use as the high-water mark for fatherhood. It could even be argued that current parenting mistakes are an over-reaction to some real parenting problems of that time, like the dads who âcoachedâ by screaming at the kids to win and insulting them in front of everyone when they didnât produce on the ball field. Call them wimpy, but not even the best professional teams operate like that any more. A style where constructive-but-positive feedback far outweighs the constructive-but-negative feedback, as it turns out, wins more championships. Go figure, but when it turns out that âwimpyâ wins ballgames, the winners get âwimpy.â There are men who are still trying to figure out how to lead when they donât get to wave their hands around, yell, and scare the pants off the kids like their dads did. Oh, well. Get with the game, it has advanced. The best then would still be the best now, because they werenât the best by accident. The guys who couldnât discipline without yelling like a tyrant werenât the best, not even back then. (If youâre old enough, you remember them. Do you really want that guy back?
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Tarpeian_Rock
Guest
Can you imagine a TV program getting on the air today with the name of âFather Knows Best?â Of course not. Mock Ward Cleaver and Jim Anderson all you want, but since the days of Archie Bunker, when Dad was portrayed as a nasty, bigoted old man, fathers in the media by and large have been portrayed as incompetent, weak, passive, ineffective, beer-sodden sports-obsessed slobs who are totally dependent on their wives and who can barely be trusted around their children. That is, when theyâre not being cast as abusive, wife-beating, child-molesting rapists who deserve to be shot by their long-suffering spouses.
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EasterJoy
Guest
I have been lucky to not have run into that guy very much so far, even in the opposing dugouts. I can only think of one coach and one pair of parents. Other than that, so far so good, knock on wood. Not that everyone is perfect, but verbally abusing kids in public has been a mercifully rare thing to have to witness.
Thatâs just itâŚeven then, not everyone was like that. That was not the âLeave it to Beaverâ ideal, that was not the ideal in Laura Ingall Wilderâs memoir-novels. Guys like that were more widely tolerated, but like the guy who felt free to get drunk at office parties, he wasnât the ideal man in anyoneâs mind.
I am just guessing, but Iâm guessing that a much more telling analysis would be the difference between the Pa Ingalls described by Laura Ingalls Wilder and the character that finally evolved in the series starring Michael Landon. That would tell a lot more about how attitudes about âthe ideal fatherâ have changed, I would think.
My own dad had authority in his own family, but so do my brothers and so does my husband. I donât see that changing. Again, though, maybe I live a sheltered life.
I do know that in that particular interview, Mr. OâReilly did not represent himself as the ideal husband or father. Iâm hoping that this is not what he is like when the microphone is off. We do have to keep in mind the difference between entertainment and real life, and these days, the news is definitely part of the entertainment industry, alas.
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wavejim
Guest
I have a number of small children and read a lot of their books outloud. There are a number of childrens book authors that push the âArchie Bunkerâ stereotype on the father figure. Berenstain bears is one that comes to mind. Sad that a parent has to monitor their childrens books this closely.
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PaleoConCatlick
Guest
Absolutely. Husbands too.
If Catholic men are wimps, they will be trampled over.
If Catholic men are wimps, they will be trampled over.
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EasterJoy
Guest
Well, Bart Simpson isnât Opie, either. Nobody wants a Bart as their ideal kid. Bart is like Eddie Haskell with ADHD. Youâll remember, though, that the old comedies had to have their share of âfaultedâ characters, too, so there was something to poke fun at. No police force would take Barney Fife as a model for law enforcement. Instead, I think the central strong male and female adult characters are missing. Everybody is Barney Fife, just to varying degrees. I think it goes along with a society where everyone expects to be on a first-name basis with everyone elseâŚthere has been a rejection of hierarchy, so you canât have a story with these strong self-disciplined admirable people in leadership roles. Praiseworthy people are âno funâ, they make people feel âinadequateâ, and so it has been decided that they have no place in light entertainment.
Mary_Gail_36
New member
Thereâs a sit-com with a child molesting rapist in a starring role?
I guess you never saw the Cosby show?
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EasterJoy
Guest
Well, at least in the Berenstain bears, the father is literally a bear, after all. Overalls, a hat, and an opposable thumb only do so much for a guy.
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TheRealJuliane
Guest
OâReilly is much WORSE when the mic is off, unfortunately. WARNING! PROFANITY
Bill OâReilly freaks out
I have been told by people in the know that Mr. OâReilly is ⌠how shall I put it ⌠âdifficult to work with.â
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LSK
Guest
dittopost wwii didnât have the greatest relationship between the generations, so maybe thatâs not the best example to use as the high-water mark for fatherhood. It could even be argued that current parenting mistakes are an over-reaction to some real parenting problems of that time, like the dads who âcoachedâ by screaming at the kids to win and insulting them in front of everyone when they didnât produce on the ball field. Call them wimpy, but not even the best professional teams operate like that any more. A style where constructive-but-positive feedback far outweighs the constructive-but-negative feedback, as it turns out, wins more championships. Go figure, but when it turns out that âwimpyâ wins ballgames, the winners get âwimpy.â there are men who are still trying to figure out how to lead when they donât get to wave their hands around, yell, and scare the pants off the kids like their dads did. Oh, well. Get with the game, it has advanced. The best then would still be the best now, because they werenât the best by accident. The guys who couldnât discipline without yelling like a tyrant werenât the best, not even back then. (if youâre old enough, you remember them. Do you really want that guy back?
listening to bill oâreilly pat himself on the back for how much money he makes could certainly have been skipped. That was off-putting, to say the least. Who wants to hear a talking head congratulate himself on his paychecks? Besides, is a man who does an honest days work and yet barely scrapes out a living worthy of less honor in his own home than bill oâreilly? Is the husband whose family needs both parents to work in order to afford catholic schools of lesser value because he isnât bringing home the âfilet mignonâ? Letâs hope not. (the flippant remark by the maybe-not-so-proud father of five about his wife and her annual baby could have been skipped, too. Flippant does not equal clever.)
i donât know who else remembers their grandmother (the one i am thinking of was born before 1900) say, âthe husband is the head of the house, but the wife is the neck, and the neck turns the head whichever way it likes.â another uncle, shortly after marking 60 years of marriage, remarked to me, âi make all the major decisions, and she decides the little stuff. Weâve been lucky, though, because so far nothing major has come up.â the question of how the decision-making in families is going to be done is not a new one!
In short, i think it is a worthy topic, but that interview advanced nothing. I hope the book is better than that. Sorry, papa bear, that was a swing and a miss.
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Nimzovik
Guest
Certainly it is undeniable that the vast bulk of Feminism has done much to emasculate the male of today. All too frequently Feminism has, as I have mentioned in other threads, defined equality as â** identicalityâ** so to speak. Feminism, certainly at least as defined by N.O.W. has done much to assure that the archetypal male image in America is prone to being a rapist, afflicted with testosterone poisoning and a rabid domestic violence perpetrator. Oh! And lest we forget- the âDominant, Oppressive, Male Patriarchyâ that exists for the sole purpose of enslaving women and declaring wars as propagated by âgender studiesâ classes on college campuses today.
However it must be noted that such could not have taken the rather strong foothold in the public arena without the likes of males like Ted Turner of CNN and the associated divide and conquer tactics of the Democrats that assure class warfare of the rich and the poor, man against woman (The so called Republican âWar on Womenâ) etc. etc.
As a male I strongly resent the imagery of the males on T.V. such as Tim Allen (the buffoon,) Archie Bunker, (the bigot) Ray Barron (the wimp.) All who have TV wives that are morally and intellectually superior. I wonât even begin to address the pandering commercials that reinforce such stereotypical thinking.
Another thing I noticed is how almost* apologetically* the Readings of St. Paul are presented from the pulpit. In conjunction I note that whenever these readings are presented it is an almost universal knee jerk reaction to quickly point out that the male is not to use such scriptures to take advantage of oneâs wife. Anyone that loves his wife would never see it that way.
Certainly just post world War II males were a breed apart with all their plusses and minuses. Perhaps the pendulum needed to swing from a war time mentality for men.
However, is it not quite apparent the pendulum has swung wayyyyyyyyyy too far in the opposite direction?
So. Have the males of today for a great part, become wimpy- fied? If so- Why? How?
However it must be noted that such could not have taken the rather strong foothold in the public arena without the likes of males like Ted Turner of CNN and the associated divide and conquer tactics of the Democrats that assure class warfare of the rich and the poor, man against woman (The so called Republican âWar on Womenâ) etc. etc.
As a male I strongly resent the imagery of the males on T.V. such as Tim Allen (the buffoon,) Archie Bunker, (the bigot) Ray Barron (the wimp.) All who have TV wives that are morally and intellectually superior. I wonât even begin to address the pandering commercials that reinforce such stereotypical thinking.
Another thing I noticed is how almost* apologetically* the Readings of St. Paul are presented from the pulpit. In conjunction I note that whenever these readings are presented it is an almost universal knee jerk reaction to quickly point out that the male is not to use such scriptures to take advantage of oneâs wife. Anyone that loves his wife would never see it that way.
Certainly just post world War II males were a breed apart with all their plusses and minuses. Perhaps the pendulum needed to swing from a war time mentality for men.
However, is it not quite apparent the pendulum has swung wayyyyyyyyyy too far in the opposite direction?
So. Have the males of today for a great part, become wimpy- fied? If so- Why? How?
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EasterJoy
Guest
Oh, that would be too bad. Well, letâs hope it is apocryphalâŚor that he is better at home with his shoes off. Iâm not a fan, but Iâm also not setting out to make this a bash OâReilly thread. It was just that particular performance that I mean to pan.
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TheRealJuliane
Guest
Yes, they have. How? By society tearing down everything that is male, and by replacing it, not with what is authentically female or feminine, but what is a caricature of what is male. So instead of anything male, we have feminized men and women who try to act like men, even though they are unable to fully pull it off. Feminism has been castigating men for every drive they have, for 50 years now. Several generations of men have grown up not even knowing what an authentic MAN is. And thatâs the ones whose fathers are IN the home. The ones who grow up with only a mother and/or grandmother are in an even more difficult situation.
It makes me sad when I hear women state and actually believe, that âmen have had their chance with the world, now itâs OUR chance, weâll fix everything theyâve broken.â
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EasterJoy
Guest
OK, but donât you think the main character has become the buffoon while the side-kick is the straight man? When Tim would make a stupid remark on-camera, Al Borland would pick up a sign with Timâs mailing address and say, âThatâs Tim Taylor, care of Tool Time, PO BoxâŚâ Timâs wife was sensible and competent, his side-kick was sensible and competent, and the main character was the one always getting himself into trouble. As far as Ray goes, his wife got into as many silly situations as he did. The whole cast was the âfunny side kickâ.
The stars donât want to be the straight man any more. The leaders want to be seen as âjust like folksâ. I have called every US presidential election since Carter vs. Reagan by asking this question: Who would the average voter *get the impression *they would rather have a beer with?
Carter vs. Reagan: Clearly Reagan
Bush vs. Dukakis: OK, câmon. Bush
Bush vs. Clinton: Clinton
Clinton vs. Dole: Clinton (because people didnât get Doleâs sense of humor, IMHO)
Gore vs. Bush: BushâŚitâs surprising the election was so close
Kerry vs. Bush: Bush, not even close
Obama vs. McCain: Somehow McCain lost his approachability, but he looked like a grouchy old man next to Obama. I donât get how, but he just did.
Now why, you might ask, does the leader of the free world have to seem approachable, of all things? When on earth will anyone ever get to approach him? Why would he have to seem âjust like folksâ? Yet tell me that given the choice between a glad hander with dodgy integrity like Clinton or someone else just as wonky and competent whoâs stiff but has impeccable integrity that Mr. I-Feel-Your-Pain wouldnât win. Is there any character flaw more fatal in politics than not seeming âfriendlyâ enough? WHY? Of all the many qualities a statesman has to have, where did a false front of friendliness become one of them?
Weâre getting the comedic characters that the medium of television makes appealing, which is to say intimate and rather small. Thatâs what Iâm afraid of, anyway.
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Tarpeian_Rock
Guest
I wasnât aware the discussion was being limited to âsit-coms.â I believe I said âthe media.â And I also said âby and large,â clearly allowing for an exception. And while I in fact didnât watch Cosby, I am aware that the Dr. Huxtable figure was an exception, as is Dr. Cosby when he speaks out today.Thereâs a sit-com with a child molesting rapist in a starring role?
I guess you never saw the Cosby show?
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Nimzovik
Guest
EasterJoy Wrote:
OK, but donât you think the main character has become the buffoon while the side-kick is the straight man? When Tim would make a stupid remark on-camera, Al Borland would pick up a sign with Timâs mailing address and say, âThatâs Tim Taylor, care of Tool Time, PO BoxâŚâ Timâs wife was sensible and competent, his side-kick was sensible and competent, and the main character was the one always getting himself into trouble. As far as Ray goes, his wife got into as many silly situations as he did. The whole cast was the âfunny side kickâ.
Nimzovik Responds:
Hmmmmmmmmmm⌠and Edith Bunker? Yes to a degree the entire cast of TV shows need to be âfunnyâ in order to be profitable. However I still must assert that the predominate T.V. image of males is inferior to the females image.
See here: popmatters.com/pm/feature/030109-male-bashing/
OK, but donât you think the main character has become the buffoon while the side-kick is the straight man? When Tim would make a stupid remark on-camera, Al Borland would pick up a sign with Timâs mailing address and say, âThatâs Tim Taylor, care of Tool Time, PO BoxâŚâ Timâs wife was sensible and competent, his side-kick was sensible and competent, and the main character was the one always getting himself into trouble. As far as Ray goes, his wife got into as many silly situations as he did. The whole cast was the âfunny side kickâ.
Nimzovik Responds:
Hmmmmmmmmmm⌠and Edith Bunker? Yes to a degree the entire cast of TV shows need to be âfunnyâ in order to be profitable. However I still must assert that the predominate T.V. image of males is inferior to the females image.
See here: popmatters.com/pm/feature/030109-male-bashing/
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Nimzovik
Guest
Indeed. I share your frustration. I also note that according to the last census 86% of women have custody of the children. So. Where is the steady male role model for the male child? Indeed! When Same sex marriage becomes legal and two lesbians âmarryâ and decide/determine that their adopted male child has âGender Identity Issuesâ, and subsequently demand a sex change operation for the male child, how will they be legally denied?Yes, they have. How? By society tearing down everything that is male, and by replacing it, not with what is authentically female or feminine, but what is a caricature of what is male. So instead of anything male, we have feminized men and women who try to act like men, even though they are unable to fully pull it off. Feminism has been castigating men for every drive they have, for 50 years now. Several generations of men have grown up not even knowing what an authentic MAN is. And thatâs the ones whose fathers are IN the home. The ones who grow up with only a mother and/or grandmother are in an even more difficult situation.
It makes me sad when I hear women state and actually believe, that âmen have had their chance with the world, now itâs OUR chance, weâll fix everything theyâve broken.â
Ahhhhhhhhhh⌠the gift of Feminism just keeps on giving doesnât it?
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