Have Dads been wimpy- fied?

[Allegra]

I
I am just guessing, but I’m guessing that a much more telling analysis would be the difference between the Pa Ingalls described by Laura Ingalls Wilder and the character that finally evolved in the series starring Michael Landon. That would tell a lot more about how attitudes about “the ideal father” have changed, I would think.

My own dad had authority in his own family, but so do my brothers and so does my husband. I don’t see that changing. Again, though, maybe I live a sheltered life.

I do know that in that particular interview, Mr. O’Reilly did not represent himself as the ideal husband or father. I’m hoping that this is not what he is like when the microphone is off. We do have to keep in mind the difference between entertainment and real life, and these days, the news is definitely part of the entertainment industry, alas.

So many families these day have to make do with no father at all, so the bar for “the ideal father” is set pretty low. Frankly, neither guy seems like the type I would want piloting my particular ship, but who knows what they are like at home. What a lot of people don’t seem to get is that a huge aspect of being a good parent is being a good spouse. I hear a surprising number of women tell me that their “baby daddy” is a perfect father.

Well then, why isn’t he married to his child’s mother, supporting their home, and leading them to be productive adults on a daily basis? It seems like all that one has to do to be considered a “good father” these days is make sure the check arrives on time, play with your kids at least every 14 days, and stay out of mom’s way.

 

[SamH]

I wasn’t aware the discussion was being limited to “sit-coms.” I believe I said “the media.” And I also said “by and large,” clearly allowing for an exception. And while I in fact didn’t watch Cosby, I am aware that the Dr. Huxtable figure was an exception, as is Dr. Cosby when he speaks out today.

Agreed.

As for the wimpy dads, the fact society treats them as an after thought to a family regulates them to secondary status unless they are willing and able to assert their role as the dominate male.

 

[thewanderer]

EasterJoy Wrote:

OK, but don’t you think the main character has become the buffoon while the side-kick is the straight man? When Tim would make a stupid remark on-camera, Al Borland would pick up a sign with Tim’s mailing address and say, “That’s Tim Taylor, care of Tool Time, PO Box…” Tim’s wife was sensible and competent, his side-kick was sensible and competent, and the main character was the one always getting himself into trouble. As far as Ray goes, his wife got into as many silly situations as he did. The whole cast was the “funny side kick”.

Nimzovik Responds:

Hmmmmmmmmmm… and Edith Bunker? Yes to a degree the entire cast of TV shows need to be ‘funny’ in order to be profitable. **However I still must assert that the predominate T.V. image of males is inferior to the females image. **

See here: popmatters.com/pm/feature/030109-male-bashing/

Maybe, maybe not. Women are either portrayed as bimbos, sex-objects, or manipulative selfish wives and mothers who care about nothing but make-up, clothes, and manicures just as much as men are portrayed as buffoons and sex-crazed animals. It really does go both ways, its just a different insulting portrayal for each sex.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Are we actually talking about Archie as making men look bad? Seriously, you people actually see Edith as a man-eating, emasculating, control freak? Uhhhh…she was a helpless moron. If we want to talk about that show making men look bad let’s talk about how it made women look too. And Gloria was a whiney ditz who needed daddy’s approval on everything and Mike was so focused on his ideology that he couldn’t see the trees through the forest.

As for modern day shows, American Dad, Family Guy, and the Simpsons are all made by men. I don’t think that men re made to be buffoons because that’s how we see men, I think that they are made to be buffoons because someone has to be funny, and men are far more funny than women. All of my friends are male, and when I hang out with them they can say funny things and make jokes that I may be thinking but can’t say because if it came out of a woman’s mouth it would sound gross or catty. But with men it’s funny. Also if you’ll notice in those shows women are to this day still only housewives. None are portrayed as having a career or education.

Why don’t we all stop looking to Seth McFarlane to tell us how to behave and start worrying about people in our own lives and how we conduct ourselves?

 

[Nimzovik]

So many families these day have to make do with no father at all, so the bar for “the ideal father” is set pretty low. Frankly, neither guy seems like the type I would want piloting my particular ship, but who knows what they are like at home. What a lot of people don’t seem to get is that a huge aspect of being a good parent is being a good spouse. I hear a surprising number of women tell me that their “baby daddy” is a perfect father.

Well then, why isn’t he married to his child’s mother, supporting their home, and leading them to be productive adults on a daily basis? It seems like all that one has to do to be considered a “good father” these days is make sure the check arrives on time, play with your kids at least every 14 days, and stay out of mom’s way.

Yes indeed.

I also would assert that the terms ‘Bio daddy’ and ‘Donor Daddy’ are egregiously offensive to true ‘Fathers’ and needs to be addressed. How much damage to the Male Father Image in society has been wrought on society and men in particular we will never know.

I for one quickly point out the heinous sexist perspective these slurs infer to women that use these terms.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Maybe, maybe not. Women are either portrayed as bimbos, sex-objects, or manipulative selfish wives and mothers who care about nothing but make-up, clothes, and manicures just as much as men are portrayed as buffoons and sex-crazed animals. It really does go both ways, its just a different insulting portrayal for each sex.

Yep, most TV shows don’t portray women as talking about anything but men and appearances with each other, while men discuss everything amongst themselves. That’s why bridesmaids was so refreshing.

But really, who cares? I don’t care if most of the time women are sex object bimbos on TV because I’m not, and the women in my life aren’t, and if I don’t like the show I can choose not to watch it. Same for men. I have many wonderful, strong men in my life, and I’m marrying the most wonderful and strongest of all. Peter Griffin’s debacle of the week doesn’t matter to me and has no bearing on my life.

 

[Nimzovik]

Are we actually talking about Archie as making men look bad? Seriously, you people actually see Edith as a man-eating, emasculating, control freak? Uhhhh…she was a helpless moron. If we want to talk about that show making men look bad let’s talk about how it made women look too. And Gloria was a whiney ditz who needed daddy’s approval on everything and Mike was so focused on his ideology that he couldn’t see the trees through the forest.

As for modern day shows, American Dad, Family Guy, and the Simpsons are all made by men. I don’t think that men re made to be buffoons because that’s how we see men, I think that they are made to be buffoons because someone has to be funny, and men are far more funny than women. All of my friends are male, and when I hang out with them they can say funny things and make jokes that I may be thinking but can’t say because if it came out of a woman’s mouth it would sound gross or catty. But with men it’s funny. Also if you’ll notice in those shows women are to this day still only housewives. None are portrayed as having a career or education.

Why don’t we all stop looking to Seth McFarlane to tell us how to behave and start worrying about people in our own lives and how we conduct ourselves?

Methinks the posters here are not the only ones that have noticed the** preponderance** of male bashing propagated via the media. As I have indicated the Democrats assure a negative ideal of men via their support of N.O.W. (a definitely** non** male friendly organization that gives men NO right to stop having their-men’s- babies too, aborted) and the Republican (read male) ‘War on Women.’ Yes?

 

[thewanderer]

Methinks the posters here are not the only ones that have noticed the** preponderance** of male bashing propagated via the media. As I have indicated the Democrats assure a negative ideal of men via their support of N.O.W. (a definitely** non** male friendly organization that gives men NO right to stop having their-men’s- babies too, aborted) and the Republican (read male) ‘War on Women.’ Yes?

Nimzovik, I get it that you want to help people realize that there is male-bashing going on as well as woman bashing (although apparantly you think portraying women poorly in the media is rare. Its really not.) But do you really have to focus on it so exclusively? Both sexes are portrayed poorly, though in different respects. So just like men stand up to say that portraying women as sex objects is degrading to men as well as women us women are here telling you that portraying men as weak and wimpy is degrading to both sexes as well. Can we give all this one-sided campaigning a rest and instead focus on the goal of promoting a healthy view of both sexes?

 

[Havard]

Yes the pendulum has swung too far, not only in against patriarchs, but against many traditions in Western culture.

Never is the answer to problem, “demonize 'em!”, yet it seems to be par for the course, whether you’re talking about politics, religion, race, gender, or pretty much any other issue nowadays.

 

[JackieMom]

Maybe, but not in my world. I’d say most of my girlfriends still think a “good man”
-Sacrifices for his family
-Respects his wife and women in general
-Supports his family financially without complaint, even if doing so involves a coal mine
-Needs to engage in something physical in order to be healthy
-Should participate with his wife as a true equal with equal say in family decisions
-Teaches his boys how to be men and teaches his daughters what to expect of men
-Places God and family above all other endeavors and interests
-Deserves respect and courtesy in his home
-Is an invaluable, crucial member of his family without whom the family is literally “broken”

Yes, characters on TV are hyperbolized and silly. So are the kids, so are the women, and so are the scenarios. It’s entertainment, not a face-value reflection of real family life.

More than wimpified, I think there are a lot of men out there who have been selfish-ified. These are they guys who spend thousands on tattoos while their wives clip coupons, take fishing trips when their wife just had a baby, spend money on TVs and theircars instead of on their kids, hang out in “man caves” with girlie posters and beer signs, spend hours every week in front of the TV instead of with their families or contributing to the household work, and don’t think they should have do work in a boring or “lame” job to support their families. They make crude comments about women and criticize their wives, all while expecting a clean home and a hot meal every night and sex-on-demand. They “babysit” - they don’t “parent.” They go out with their buddies more than they go out with their wives. They think they are owed an equivalent existence to that of a 19-year-old frat boy just because theycsrry the burden of a job. I know lots of guys like that - selfish, immature, rude, arrogant, vain… But not really wimpy.

 

[EasterJoy]

EasterJoy Wrote:

OK, but don’t you think the main character has become the buffoon while the side-kick is the straight man? When Tim would make a stupid remark on-camera, Al Borland would pick up a sign with Tim’s mailing address and say, “That’s Tim Taylor, care of Tool Time, PO Box…” Tim’s wife was sensible and competent, his side-kick was sensible and competent, and the main character was the one always getting himself into trouble. As far as Ray goes, his wife got into as many silly situations as he did. The whole cast was the “funny side kick”.

Nimzovik Responds:

Hmmmmmmmmmm… and Edith Bunker? Yes to a degree the entire cast of TV shows need to be ‘funny’ in order to be profitable. However I still must assert that the predominate T.V. image of males is inferior to the females image.

See here: popmatters.com/pm/feature/030109-male-bashing/

I wouldn’t exactly call Edith a role model. Of course it looked as if Archie disrespected her…but who did? Gloria? Michael? No, they all looked down on her. I think the writers patronized her. I think the writers looked down on her. I think it is fair to say that Norman Lear personally did a lot to make comedy less kind-hearted. I’m not saying that the shows with the biting humor have done no good, but for instance even when the MAS*H character Hawkeye tried to show respect for authority, he was very bad at it. It was always less than his colonels deserved, it was less than Margaret deserved, and even though they made a nod in that direction once in awhile, I don’t know that the writers got that. I don’t know that they realize that failure in respect is not something that can be turned on and off. If they did, they certainly wrote that appreciation out of that character. No, Hawkeye was the brilliant surgeon and the madcap and the self-righteous protector of those who caught his pity, and that forgave all and released him from the demands of any authority except himself. There are many characters like that in the history of TV comedy–the smart aleck with all the sharp lines who didn’t realize how hurtful and self-important their humor was.

 

[JackieMom]

Sorry - computer acting up!

 

[Havard]

Yep, most TV shows don’t portray women as talking about anything but men and appearances with each other, while men discuss everything amongst themselves. That’s why bridesmaids was so refreshing.

But really, who cares? I don’t care if most of the time women are sex object bimbos on TV because I’m not, and the women in my life aren’t, and if I don’t like the show I can choose not to watch it. Same for men. I have many wonderful, strong men in my life, and I’m marrying the most wonderful and strongest of all. Peter Griffin’s debacle of the week doesn’t matter to me and has no bearing on my life.

Bridesmaids was extremely funny at times, but Kristin Wiig’s character was difficult for me to enjoy… The combo of self-pity and self-righteousness aren’t easy to write/direct/play funny. Mikey in Swingers is one of the few examples I can think of where it worked.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Bridesmaids was extremely funny at times, but Kristin Wiig’s character was difficult for me to enjoy… The combo of self-pity and self-righteousness aren’t easy to write/direct/play funny. Mikey in Swingers is one of the few examples I can think of where it worked.

There are fair criticisms to make, sure, but as a woman I related far better to the characters and how they interacted with each other than I have with any other TV show or movie. Each character had flaws and merits and they were all a lot more gross, real, and imperfect than women are typically portrayed as.

That’s also something that I tend to enjoy about Tina Fey’s characters. She always plays someone who has far more going on than a desperate love life and wanting to go shopping.

 

[Kamaduck]

I think there are problems with the portrayal of women and men. I think I’d say that there are generally more problems with how women are portrayed, but that dads are portrayed worse in family situations. I also think that gender roles are a much more complicated issue than they appear to be.

I grew up with most of this new programming, and I think that in some ways it has gotten better, and in other ways it has gotten worse.

In children’s programming, I think there is often just an absence of any good parents whatsoever. None of my favorite shows as a kid really had parents in them. Often, the kids were the heroes, and adults were just… Gone. It’s not that they were bad, they just weren’t present, and sometimes without any sort of explanation.

I remember reading an essay for school about movies for teens. It said that in the sixties or so, the characters would rebel against their parents, often without cause. In modern movies, though, the teens don’t do this. Adults never encourage them and never stand in their way. There is nothing to rebel against.

I’m sure there are plenty of counter-examples to this, but from watching TV as a kid and now, I know that most of the children’s shows simply class 90% of adults as utterly useless. This plays out differently for moms than for dads, but neither are actually portrayed very positively.

Umm… Sorry if that was off-topic, but you guys were talking about media, right?

 

[Havard]

There are fair criticisms to make, sure, but as a woman I related far better to the characters and how they interacted with each other than I have with any other TV show or movie. Each character had flaws and merits and they were all a lot more gross, real, and imperfect than women are typically portrayed as.

That’s also something that I tend to enjoy about Tina Fey’s characters. She always plays someone who has far more going on than a desperate love life and wanting to go shopping.

Her characters are a lot more likable, no doubt.

 

[severus68]

There seems a attitude with men my age to be passive, and let the woman make all the
decisions. I’ve noticed with men in higher income brackets to say things like “yeah, my
wife is the boss.” And joke or brag about it. I think that feminism has made men gun shy
about being dominate. And it has been noted in conservative magazines that even “alpha males” hold feminist views.

Neither spouse needs to dominate. Blessed JPII said he was a feminist. Supporting and promoting the equality of rights of women - not wrong at all.

 

[severus68]

Are we actually talking about Archie as making men look bad? Seriously, you people actually see Edith as a man-eating, emasculating, control freak? Uhhhh…she was a helpless moron. If we want to talk about that show making men look bad let’s talk about how it made women look too. And Gloria was a whiney ditz who needed daddy’s approval on everything and Mike was so focused on his ideology that he couldn’t see the trees through the forest.

As for modern day shows, American Dad, Family Guy, and the Simpsons are all made by men. I don’t think that men re made to be buffoons because that’s how we see men, I think that they are made to be buffoons because someone has to be funny, and men are far more funny than women. All of my friends are male, and when I hang out with them they can say funny things and make jokes that I may be thinking but can’t say because if it came out of a woman’s mouth it would sound gross or catty. But with men it’s funny. Also if you’ll notice in those shows women are to this day still only housewives. None are portrayed as having a career or education.

Why don’t we all stop looking to Seth McFarlane to tell us how to behave and start worrying about people in our own lives and how we conduct ourselves?

I don’t know about men being funnier than women but otherwise I agree with everything you say here.

U.S. tv programmes do not make people what they are. Men and women do not have to live up to the rotten characteristics of tv characters. Comedy is comedy and “All in the Family” was a comedy and it was satire.

 

[on_the_hill]

Perhaps.

Marginalized? Perhaps.

Excluded? Perhaps.

Undermined? Perhaps.

Sidetracked? Perhaps.

Wimpy-fied? Perhaps.

And they have no one but themselves to blame.

For the past twenty-five years we’ve seen the ridiculous trend of grown men refusing to grow up. It’s in movies, on TV, and living in your neighborhood. The paradigm of the loveable slacker. The guy who never really grows up. The guy who’s idea of responsibility means wearing a backward baseball cap, a t-shirt, and gym shorts at age 40 while he complains about his kids, his wife, his job, and spends all his spare time escaping to the mancave with his buddies to play cards and watch sports is becoming the typical “adult” American male. The guys whose humor never progressed beyond 8th grade. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Why are women increasingly taking the lead? Because, by and large, they’ve matured at normal rates, whereas we haven’t. Women, by and large, assumed our responsibilities because we have abdicated them.

Feminism? Please. Talk to the hand. As a great American leader once said, no one can make you feel inferior without your consent.

Leadership abhors a vacuum. When men won’t lead, who is left to pick up the mantle?

I believe in meritocracy. I believe the best leader ought to be the leader. I do not believe a person’s chromosomes determine whether or not that person ought to be in charge.

My grandfather was a decorated World War One vet. He survived hand-to-hand combat. He survived gas attacks. He survived nearly having his leg blown off by a German mortar. And he raised his two daughters to not take a back seat to anyone. And they don’t.

My father-in-law raised his two daughters in a blue-collar town overwhelmingly dominated by men. And he raised his two daughters to not take a back seat to anyone. And they don’t.

I learned something very, very important from a coach and mentor when I was in college: Power and gentleness are not mutually exclusive. That’s a good thing to remember, whether you’ve got an XX or an XY blueprint.

 

[Nimzovik]

Hmmmmmmmmmm…

Perhaps this link is relevant:

youtube.com/watch?v=N0L3ik9fp-M