Have enough kids and don't trust NFP, options?

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Guesstimating is in NO WAY NFP. But in addition to what everyone else said, there are now a lot of really good phone apps to help with the charting too… it’s easier to do NFP now than ever before. But… if she really truly hates sex as you stated, then maybe she doesn’t actually want to truly practice NFP and is just making up her own version to avoid it…
 
Well Cecilia_Dympna… he didn’t use the word hate… he actually used the word “despise”. So I guess me using the word ‘hate’ was mine, not his.

Quote: “To add insult to injury, my wife despises sex, much like doing the dishes or folding laundry except for a couple days in the middle of her cycle, when we have to avoid each other.”

🙂
 
It may not be that she despises the physical act, she may despise the consequences she has gotten four times. 😉 And that may be reason enough in her mind to be “uninterested.”
 
Oh ok,I didn’t know that.
I thought it was only artificial/man made contraception that the Catholic Church didn’t agree with and that natural things like Chinese herbs or saunas etc would be ok.

Isn’t there also though a need to be responsible and only have the amount of children that the parents are able to care for -fully, physically, emotionally?

I’m not referring necessarily referring to the OP’s situation here, but my own father was one of 7 children in extreme poverty in (what was then) Yugoslavija.
There was no “entertainment” (no radio let alone TV), literally no inside toilet or toilet paper, and my dad even had to sleep in the barn with the horses as there was no room and he was the eldest male child.
It cause my father much heartache and bad memory.
When my father reached of age, he “escaped the country” (borders were then not open in communist country) for a better life out of poverty.

I think being open to life should be to being open to the beauty of life/giving life, to be able to love and nurture them and not just “open to breeding” (if this makes sense).

At the same time, I love large families and there are many large families also who are very happy and have good financial situations.

I presume that Natural family planning is not known in some countries or taught effectively?
Can it potentially also make life a bit less natural/spontaneous and more “clinical”?
Ie: instead of the couple just having sex as they feel it has to be thought about and be “according to schedules” etc.
I think this would be a mood killer for me lol but maybe couples just get used to it?
 
I thought it was only artificial/man made contraception that the Catholic Church didn’t agree with and that natural things like Chinese herbs or saunas etc would be ok.
The Church’s teaching on contraception:

every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" is intrinsically evil
Isn’t there also though a need to be responsible and only have the amount of children that the parents are able to care for -fully, physically, emotionally?
Yes, and that is why the Church also teaches:

When it is a question of harmonizing married love with the responsible transmission of life, the morality of the behavior does not depend on sincere intention and evaluation of motives alone; but it must be determined by objective criteria

Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.
 
I have no negative thoughts towards NFP. It’s just my hope that couples can do it in a way that keeps relationships and sex naturally and is not turned into something clinical.

My only concern would be for people in poor countries.
I have read that NFP is used more by people in wealthier countries and with higher education.
It’s important that solutions are directed towards people in these poverty situations.
I don’t see it as “black and white” issue though so I’m definitely not in support of mass sterilization or abortion either.

Tbh, while catholic born and baptized etc I’m not fully in agreement with Catholic Church teaching on contraception, like a lot of people today, but I understand why people believe it and I don’t expect OP/anyone to believe same as me.

I think it’s generally important though (speaking for any topic not just about contraception) that people believe what they believe because of the “spirit” of it and not just because it is a catholic rule.
Ie: that a persons heart and mind follows something because they truly believe it is what God wants/Gods way and not because they mindlessly follow rule. If that makes sense.
I have not the better words to describe it but something like when it’s talked about the spirit of the law vs the rule of law.
 
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A common misconception to NFP is that it removes the freedom of spontaneity and that it is a clinicalization of sexuality. To be fair, I suppose how you approach it could be with a clinical mindset, but we have not found that to be the case for us at all. The is still plenty of space for my wife and I to have significant periods of spontaneity as well as growing desire for each other; a key distinction is each other and not our individual pleasure.

We’ve found an increase in communication, respect for one another’s bodies and desires. Further, the anticipatory experience of when highly fertile times have passed is something we both look forward to. As if that weren’t enough, the posture of keeping ourselves open to life albeit during times of lower fertility, we enjoy a growing emotional bondedness as we’re both willfully and responsibly saying yes together and no together; we do make good use of the times of lower fertility and I wouldn’t be surprised if the frequency ends up being more so than without NFP.

I very much see the fruits of NFP and recommend you sign up for a licensed training session and spend some time with the theology of why it’s good as well; it’s always better to be living in a compelling story rather than to reduce life to following the correct rules alone!
 
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My only concern would be for people in poor countries.
I have read that NFP is used more by people in wealthier countries
You are completely mistaken.

The Missionaries of Charity have been teaching NFP to the poorest of the poor for years. And the Drs. Billings before that.



https://www.woombinternational.org/bulletin/37-vol-44-no-3/file


https://toronto.naturalfamilyplanning.ca/downloads/trials.pdf
It’s important that solutions are directed towards people in these poverty situations.
The Billings began directing this solution to the poor in the 1950s, and many have come after them to continue their work.
 
So, trying to remain at least somewhat delicate here, but I’ve found that when I’m not fertile, I often don’t feel “in the mood”. However, I’ve also found that I can GET “in the mood” with some appropriate affectionate persuasion. This requires some extra effort on my husband’s part, but it doesn’t mean that I “despise sex” just because I’m not in the mood for my husband to jump on me right away. It took a while for us to figure that out though. Sorry. Tried to keep it PG 13 at least.
 
It’s just my hope that couples can do it in a way that keeps relationships and sex naturally and is not turned into something clinical
Right now I’m pregnant so NFP isn’t a concern for us. But the level of spontaneity is about the same because we’ve got 4 kids and both work full time. So there’s not a lot of room for spontaneity regardless.
 
is not turned into something clinical.
In the morning, I observed my mucous when I did my morning pee. Nothing clinical, a simple observation when I wiped myself. A casual “looks like we’re fertile” in the morning conversation. We both knew that meant some days of abstinence.

We did not have to stay in opposite rooms or only touch each other with kitchen tongs, we simply did not have sex if we were avoiding.

Sometimes we said “what the heck” and had sex anyway. We both knew there was a chance of conception. Again, both adults who understood.
 
I know, right! I’m like, look at these 0-2 kid people talking about spontaneity while we’re over here holding hands quietly so we don’t wake the baby and wondering if it’s cool to drug the kids with Benedryl so we can wrap some presents!
 
I have read that NFP is used more by people in wealthier countries and with higher education.
It’s important that solutions are directed towards people in these poverty situations.
I don’t think it is right.

The more the people are educated and lived in wealthy countries, the more they will used highly effective contraception.
The more people (women) lived in more poorer countries and have less education, they are less likely to use highly effective contraception. These people are more likely to use traditional methods and naturals methods of birth regulation. And also sterilization if campaigns promote it.

Very few highly educated women will choose to use no contraception. They will tend to use higly effective and high tech NFP with costy devices such as Marquette. Which, I have to said it is unavailable to the majority of the women in the world -including in the wealthier countries because of its cost.
More women in poorer countries will use natural methods. But they will used more day count such as the Rythm method. Some would have the priviledge to be formed by cost free NFP such as Billings, or the two days methods because campaigns exists.

The WOOMB organisation has focused her action on Third world countries since the 1970’s and say the success is more real than in Europe and others wealthier countries. As others such as Mercedes Wilson.
 
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I can only going off what I have read:)
I can only presume there would be conflicting studies depending on the country citizens and whether there is religious involvement/influence of the country etc…

Current NFP users were…have a bachelor’s degree, and earn higher income than the other two groups. “

*“ Current NFP users generally had higher levels of education and income than former NFP users, and former NFP users had slightly higher levels of education and income than those who had never used the method…”

However, since retention is particularly low among women who are black and of lower socioeconomic status and retention is disproportionately high among women who are Catholic, white, and of higher socioeconomic status…”

Most of the participants were married (89%) and well educated; 73% holding a university degree…“



It’s good to know of the Missionaries etc work. At the same time, there are a lot of problems in the world and realistically they are limited to the amount of people they can reach.
It is less common now in today era in my country background, but still there are some people with many children live in poverty.
Same in country like Philippines.
Some people have 6 children, earn $10 a day etc…


Considering it is relatively cost free, it would be good for Governments to implement nationwide programme to teach doctors to educate people about NFP in poor countries.

I personally find the Ecuador article sad.
They will not charge the woman to put the implant in but they will charge her take it out…😯
If I be totally honest, IMO it borders on exploitation of uneducated.
Even in “western country” this can happen. Doctors can convince our migrant parents to do “extreme solution” to an illness as they do not have the education and/or language skill to question doctors knowledge.
Likewise these women are “promised” a solution to their problem but without receiving education what they putting into their body, will it cause potential worse side effect etc…
They need to receive education so they then can make their own informed decisions.
 
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Again, just be super careful.

When not being presented by people with religious reasons to promote it, NFP has a higher failure rate than you may be comfortable with.

Moreover, as most women age their cycles become less clockwork. Less predictable. In the final reproductive years they’re often all over the place.

Just the hazard of aging human bodies.

Best of luck, man. I was in a similar boat not too long ago. I just got clipped, but I understand if you can’t do that for religious reasons.
 
I think you are right about this providing that those countries/areas are ones that have had traditional methods of birth control in the first place.

Education probably informs people of awareness about birth control options all together, which like you mentioned leads to a highest use of “sophisticated” methods in most educated in most wealthy countries.
Apparently in less educated people in India for example though female sterlilisation is still common:(
 
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Moreover, as most women age their cycles become less clockwork. Less predictable. In the final reproductive years they’re often all over the place.

Just the hazard of aging human bodies.
You do realize that the “calendar method” is not a form of NFP, right?

When cycles are not perfect (and very few people actually have perfect timeclock cycles), you are observing for the fertility signs every day. One is not caught unaware by a super short or super long cycle. Creighton was my MOC and it helped me be knowledgeable of the changes as I reached menopause.
 
Yes, I do.

The danger comes from the fact that your body may decide to be early when there’s already some “catalyst” present. It can endure for up to a week.
 
And if one is observing their body every day, we see the early signs of fertility.
 
A little background,

For our first we tried for over a year. In that time we became as close to lay experts as anyone who didn’t go to medical school (and do a gynecological residency) can get on the signs of fertility.

If you can reliably predict fertility a week out, you should publish. There are millions of dollars and a possible Nobel prize waiting for you.
 
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