Have enough kids and don't trust NFP, options?

[Busyfather]

Planning on doing anything when the kids need to be unconscious can be difficult. Last year on 12/24 we simply didn’t sleep getting things ready, we may have dosed off around 3am Christmas morning but given their excitement they were up before 6am.

 

[Rozellelily]

Perhaps I am not understanding the Catholic teaching properly, but doesn’t this seem a bit like splitting hairs?
I mean, technically, deciding to not have sex during fertile periods could be also considered a form of birth control.

I understand that the Catholic Church accepts this, and that couples might not anyway have been having sex continually non stop always
but technically a baby could have been “gifted by God” during that period and a “human means” has interrupted it.
That’s why I find it hard to see much difference between NFP & condoms (or natural treatment) when used by couples who already have a general attitude/mindset of being open to babies & consider them a blessing.

As an aside I’m not sure I understand even whether God is directly involved in pregnancies or if it is just “biological process” (even if the biological process created by God).
To explain it clearer words, I mean if a couple has 10 children does that mean that God himself “gifted” them 10 children intentionally or does it just mean they have certain biological factors (high fertility) which resulted in 10 children and therefor a “passive process”?

I love big families but I also read some bad story from USA like Turbin family abuse story who had many children.
It possible they could have been just as abusive with 3 children but this besides the point here. What I am trying to understand though is their number of children Gods direct doing?

Nfp is good in general though, even just to be in tune with body is good.

I’m only asking this for my own understanding and not for controversy or want arguments.
(I feel almost a need to put this “disclaimer” to remind anyone who responds to please respond in a respectful way.
It is possible for people to have different opinions and keep it pleasant/without harshness or aggression etc.)

 

[Mrchatsworth]

My point was simply that “man made” thing is not morally unacceptable simply because it is man made. That would be ridiculous. So a sheepskin condom is somehow better morally than a latex one?

 

[Anicette]

That’s why I find it hard to see much difference between NFP & condoms (or natural treatment) when used by couples who already have a general attitude/mindset of being open to babies & consider them a blessing.

a general mindset of openess is not enough. We have to proove it by our action, our choise every time we have marital intimacy. That’s mean to not change the nature of the act or our fertility deliberately (separate the unitive and the procreative meaning). Condoms prevents the seed to go to his natural place and natural “treatment” is a mean to reduce the likelihood of conception deliberately. It is nothing “natural”.
NFP, when it is chosen with an open mind to children does not separate the meaning of sexuality. It is still the same act, ordered toward procreation, that can lead to a baby. It is just a choose to do or avoid in a certain timing.

 

[Rozellelily]

Thankyou for the sheepskin visual .
Though latex can actually be made from natural materials too, but by natural I wasn’t really referring to natural materials themselves but things that were “artificially created” by humans to reduce fertility vs natural things that did this anyway (eg: herbs or sauna heat).

Either way, another poster clarified that the Catholic Church was against all methods.

 

[1ke]

Perhaps I am not understanding the Catholic teaching properly, but doesn’t this seem a bit like splitting hairs?
I mean, technically, deciding to not have sex during fertile periods could be also considered a form of birth control.

It is birth control. But birth control isn’t intrinsically immoral/evil. Contraception is an intrinsically evil means of birth control. Abstaining isn’t.

That’s why I find it hard to see much difference between NFP & condoms (or natural treatment)

In one you refrain from the act, in the other you engage in the act while disordering it with a condom.

when used by couples who already have a general attitude/mindset of being open to babies & consider them a blessing.

This is called proportionality and it has been condemned by the Church. Dr Janet Smith has a great talk on this.

As an aside I’m not sure I understand even whether God is directly involved in pregnancies or if it is just “biological process” (even if the biological process created by God).

Usually the latter, in extraordinary cases— John the Baptist, Isaac, etc.— likely directly.

I love big families but I also read some bad story from USA like Turbin family abuse story who had many children.

There are families with one child that are abusers. No, abuse is not driven by a large family. It is driven by mental health, addictions, anger issues, personality disorders, and the like.

What I am trying to understand though is their number of children Gods direct doing?

No. God gives us free will and cooperated with our choices.

 

[Mindblown]

You HAVE to take a couple to couple league CLASS and LEARN NFP. I’m sorry y’all got to the point of fear of intimacy before figuring this out. Truly. I keep running into so many young couples in this same boat. Why aren’t they pushing the classes at engagement encounter weekends?

NFP really does work if you take the class and chart. I don’t even chart my temp any longer. We’ve been together 20 years & have 5 children. BUT, they were all conceived while both of us knew we were fertile but had enough wine that neither of us cared & were just like “it’s God will!” Lol. We are happy and my husband is one of 5 and always wanted 5 so all is well. But not everyone is mentally and/or emotionally equipped for 5. So I get it that you’re feeling this way.

We really don’t want anymore. Our babies were 10 pounds and I’m small, so physically & considering complications after the last births I don’t think it would be good for me. And I’m enjoying our life free of diapers for the first time in 18years!! So we now have a “designated” natural family planner if we’re fertile. I rarely drink now that I’m approaching 40/get headaches from only 1 drink, so it’s not really a problem to be “designated”

I know some couples who are like y’all and didn’t take a class and can’t financially support another child after having 4 due to private school tuition (we are in a city with some of the worst public schools in the nation) so these couples began using condoms if anywhere near the fertile window. I told them if they take the class and chart they wont need to do that. But they’re terrified, and I get it, so I don’t judge. Some Priests have told them they’ve “done their duty” and God understands. Some tell them to take the class and trust in the Lord.

The class is around an hour for 4 weekends or so. It’s EXTREMELY informative. Also, i highly recommend PAPER charting and not using an app. You have to see the month all laid out in front of you on paper to really “get it”

Oh and it’s really your wife that would be charting- not you. There’s really no mood breaker. She would know if she is or isn’t in the fertile window before the mood strikes y’all. As for her not being interested in sex - it’s probably because she feels like nothing but a mom and like everyone just wants a piece of her in some way. I felt this way a lot especially while breastfeeding exclusively. I just couldn’t get in “that“ mood. Things are fantastic now though. All the kids are weaned and out of diapers and I feel like a woman and a mom not JUST a mom.

it’s important for her to periodically feel desirable and to desire you even in the midst of the sweet chaos of little ones, so Take her out to dinner. Tell her she’s beautiful. Talk to her in her eyes at dinner. She might need that to get of out “mom mode”. And if y’all drink, have a drink before so she lets her hair down a little. For some gals, it’s hard to go from mom mode to feeling desirable mode. A cocktail or 2 can make all the difference in relaxing her and quieting her thoughts of “the kids”

Good luck! Oh and pray together every night as a fam. Even if it’s just one Our Father and One Hail Mary.

 

[TheLittleLady]

You HAVE to take a couple to couple league CLASS and LEARN NFP.

There are many other methods of NFP. CtCL teaches the Sympto Thermal method. This method is not practical for some people, like me! I encourage people to investigate STM, STM + Tech/Marquette, Tech only, Creighton, Billings, that gives a person the opportunity to find what will work for you right now and in the future.

 

[Ammi]

Well if you want sex with a guarantee infertility, then that’s kinda impossible… without immoral measures.

 

[Busyfather]

Oh and it’s really your wife that would be charting- not you. There’s really no mood breaker. She would know if she is or isn’t in the fertile window before the mood strikes y’all. As for her not being interested in sex - it’s probably because she feels like nothing but a mom and like everyone just wants a piece of her in some way.

This defines our problem almost exactly. She has a pretty good hold on when she’s fertile and that alone is enough to make me want to avoid contact. It also happens to be the only time she even has a chance of finding herself in the mood. Part of it is psychological and part of it is hormonal. I can help with the psychological part dealing with the kids, dishes, chores, etc. leaving her with less to stress about but the hormonal part I have zero control over and the only hormonal control pills I’ve found are birth control pills, leading us back to the original problem.

This is making more sense to me every day: " The one who loves his life will lose it , and the one who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life."

 

[Inquiry]

As for her not being interested in sex - it’s probably because she feels like nothing but a mom and like everyone just wants a piece of her in some way.

She has a pretty good hold on when she’s fertile and that alone is enough to make me want to avoid contact.

I think this may be part of your issue. How much of that is hyperbole and how much do you actually avoid her? Make sure you aren’t pulling back too much from her.

 

[Busyfather]

When I say avoid, I mean avoid sex to put it bluntly. I don’t avoid her in any other way, we’re physically close to one another, we look at old pictures together, watch a favorite TV show together, discuss what we’re grateful for and what might be bothering us. In the rare instance when one of us needs to be left alone, we grant each other the solitude needed but it’s not often and never more than a couple hours.

 

[Busyfather]

Another part of the problem is she (for mostly the wrong reasons) does want another child, a daughter specifically. The only reason that does make sense to me is for our only daughter to have a sister. The reason consistently brought up is so she can loose weight (doesn’t really need to) through breast feeding. She’s also mentioned we’ll have more kids to take care of us when we’re old. While these are both fact, to me, they seem like very poor reasons to consider actively trying to have another child. Also fact I consistently bring up is another child absolutely would result in greater financial liability and at the same time, fewer available hours for us (me primarily) to earn. This does not take into account having less time to devote to the children we already have.

I have started researching remote NFP instruction as paying a sitter while traveling to instruction would be inconvenient and sometimes not readily available despite being vastly less expensive than actually having another kid.

 

[JMMJ]

She’s also mentioned we’ll have more kids to take care of us when we’re old.

A terrible reason to have children.

 

[Busyfather]

I agree completely, the money saved otherwise with compound interest would easily pay for whatever level of care we need or desire in our old age. Besides, expecting our children to be our caretakers is not only unfair, it’s completely unrealistic. I see what my mother has to take care of for her mom as POA while grandma slowly shows more signs of dementia and it’s very mentally taxing, not to mention time consuming. The situation was even worse with my MIL taking care of her mom in a nursing home with dementia, out of money and MIL was still working full time as a teacher, it was trying to say the least.

I have no intention or desire to put any of my kids through that.