Have some been misrepresenting the indult allowing Communion in hand?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Eilish_Maura
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
E

Eilish_Maura

Guest
It seems to be a pretty outrageous tale that the indult allowing people to receive HC in the hand was the ‘lesser of two evils in dealing with disobedient Bishops’.

I understand it is true that the indult came after the practice was in place in some areas BUT a priest I know explained that is the normal functioning of such things. He said the bishops had the authority to get the ball rolling so to speak so it was not about disobedience on their part.

Any verifiable information would be great - I am up to my eyeballs in this ‘came from disobedience’ stuff.
 
I understand it is true that the indult came after the practice was in place in some areas BUT a priest I know explained that is the normal functioning of such things. He said the bishops had the authority to get the ball rolling so to speak so it was not about disobedience on their part.
Well they could certainly petition. However the fact that an indult is needed is reason along to say they don’t have the authority to allow the practice.

I am sure you are aware the norm is to recieve on the tongue.
 
He is right and it is not just his opinion. The title of this forum is Apologetics which is defending the Church. The Liturgy and Sacraments concerns subjects such as yours. Think of it as the inner workings of the Church.
 
He is right and it is not just his opinion. The title of this forum is Apologetics which is defending the Church. The Liturgy and Sacraments concerns subjects such as yours. Think of it as the inner workings of the Church.
I believe, with how many speak of this item - that apologetics is an appropriate aspect to consider.

One thing that comes up is that this practice demeans the sacrament(s) and it was deliberately chosen because of this.

I don’t believe that the gates of hell have won out against the church and I don’t believe that this was done to demean the sacraments.

How does one defend the Church’s choices regarding processes, sometimes with some of ‘our own’?
 
I believe, with how many speak of this item - that apologetics is an appropriate aspect to consider.

One thing that comes up is that this practice demeans the sacrament(s) and it was deliberately chosen because of this.

I don’t believe that the gates of hell have won out against the church and I don’t believe that this was done to demean the sacraments.

How does one defend the Church’s choices regarding processes, sometimes with some of ‘our own’?
I am not sure that you can. People in general have not been taught to think critically - that is, they have not been taught logic, and have not been required to think through the statements they make to test them (the statements). Too often one is met with “don’t confuse me with the facts; I already have my mind made up!”

Trying to even discuss the issue with those folks is simply an act of frustration. The issue here - Communion in the hand - tends to evoke strong emotional responses in some people, and they presume that the emotional response answers the whole question. It is, however, fairly consistent in that it (the emotional response) appears in other issues; e.g. the OFis the cause of the loss of reverance, or the drop off in Mass attendance Mass attendance, or any number of other issues that have evolved over time, usually due to multiple influences. One simply gets a post hoc, ergo propter hoc argument delivered as if it were God’s spoken and revealed truth, never mind that too often the evidence is contrary to their presumptions.

Communion in the hand started primarily in Europe; it started at a time when there was tremendous enthusiasm for liturgical change, liturgical research into the older Church, and liturguical experimentation. Much of the attitude was caused by what was perceived, not entirely incorrectly, as a lot of people showing up for Mass primarily motivated by the fear of Hell, having little or no real knowledge of what was going on in the Mass, and all too often involved in prayers other than those of the Mass. Depending on the parish and the area, more or fewer people owned a missal containing the Latin on one side and the translation on the other; those knew much more of what was going on and actually followed along. The rest, for the greatest part, knew only rote bits of Latin, and were not strongly engaged in the Mass.

People forget (or never knew) that one of the popular questions about Mass attendance was “how late can I come and how early can I leave and still fulfill my obligation?”

In short, the people who are one and two generations away from the 1962 Missal have romantic ideas of what Mass was like to the average person in the pew. They focus on the fact that Communion in the hand was from the bottom up, as opposed to the top down; they have an overriding and Germanic approach to law (particularly Church law) as opposed to a Mediterranian approach, and are horrified that Communion in the hand is, by them, considered to be completely tainted by such a start. They presume tremendously evil intent on all liturgical change and those who brought it about.

My own estimation is that the liturgical experimentation that went on early was altogether too charged with enthusiasm, most of it for a closer relationship with Christ; extremely little common sense; almost no sense of continuity, and troublesome to say the least.

It is also my opinion that more damage was done to the Church by the abrupt and horrific changes to catechesis than was caused by liturgical change. But that is for other threads.

Keep in mind that those who tend to be strongest in condemnation of Communion in the hand are also among those who rejoiced loudly when Ratzinger was made Pope, braying about the coming “slap down” (the term specifically used).

Nobody has been slapped. Again, a Germanic view of Church law, one that presupposes that in a correctly run church, the Pope micro manages the Roman Rite with an iron fist - maybe or maybe not in a velvet glove.
 
I understand it is true that the indult came after the practice was in place in some areas BUT a priest I know explained that is the normal functioning of such things. He said the bishops had the authority to get the ball rolling so to speak so it was not about disobedience on their part.
I’d like to hear a further explanation of the part I’ve bolded. What authority did they have, what did they do with the authority, and how was it not disobedience?

For the record, here is the apropos excerpt from Memoriale Domini:
… in recent years a fuller sharing in the eucharistic celebration through sacramental communion has here and there evoked the desire to return to the ancient usage of depositing the eucharistic bread in the hand of the communicant, he himself then communicating, placing it in his mouth.

Indeed, in certain communities and in certain places this practice has been introduced without prior approval having been requested of the Holy See, and, at times, without any attempt to prepare the faithful adequately.



When therefore a small number of episcopal conferences and some individual bishops asked that the practice of placing the consecrated hosts in the people’s hands be permitted in their territories, the Holy Father decided that all the bishops of the Latin Church should be asked if they thought it opportune to introduce this rite. A change in a matter of such moment, based on a most ancient and venerable tradition, does not merely affect discipline. It carries certain dangers with it which may arise from the new manner of administering holy communion: the danger of a loss of reverence for the august sacrament of the altar, of profanation, of adulterating the true doctrine.



From the returns it is clear that the vast majority of bishops believe that the present discipline should not be changed, and that if it were, the change would be offensive to the sentiments and the spiritual culture of these bishops and of many of the faithful.



The Apostolic See therefore emphatically urges bishops, priests and laity to obey carefully the law which is still valid and which has again been confirmed. It urges them to take account of the judgment given by the majority of Catholic bishops, of the rite now in use in the liturgy, of the common good of the Church.

Where a contrary usage, that of placing holy communion on the hand, prevails, the Holy See—wishing to help them fulfill their task, often difficult as it is nowadays—lays on those conferences the task of weighing carefully whatever special circumstances may exist there, taking care to avoid any risk of lack of respect or of false opinions with regard to the Blessed Eucharist, and to avoid any other ill effects that may follow.

In such cases, episcopal conferences should examine matters carefully and should make whatever decisions, by a secret vote and with a two-thirds majority, are needed to regulate matters. Their decisions should be sent to Rome to receive the necessary confirmation, accompanied with a detailed account of the reasons which led them to take those decisions. The Holy See will examine each case carefully, taking into account the links between the different local churches and between each of them and the Universal Church, in order to promote the common good and the edification of all, and that mutual good example may increase faith and piety.

So there you have it: there were places where Communion in the hand was illegally practiced. The Apostolic See “urges bishops, priests and laity to obey carefully the law” but at the same time gives another course of action for bishops overseeing dioceses that commit the illegal practice: they may petition to have the law changed for their conference, so long as they take care to “avoid any risk of lack of respect or of false opinions with regard to the Blessed Eucharist, and to avoid any other ill effects”. But this is only “to promote the common good and the edification of all” and so that “mutual good example may increase faith and piety”.

[Edited by Moderator]
 
I will allow this topic to be discussed as long as the forum rules are not violated. This is a “hot” topic, so keep it cool, everyone.
 
I think it is a matter of perspective. There are fine lines separating ‘disobedience’ from ‘courageous insistence.’ The same exact arguments (ie that it results from disobedience) are made regarding the indults for the TLM.

A perhaps related question - most people no longer refer to the EF as an indult, because Summorum Pontificum made it widely availble. Is the same true of CIH? It doesn’t seem to me to be an “indult,” which to me means “permission to do something that is against the rules”.
 
I am not sure that you can. People in general have not been taught to think critically - that is, they have not been taught logic, and have not been required to think through the statements they make to test them (the statements). Too often one is met with “don’t confuse me with the facts; I already have my mind made up!”

Trying to even discuss the issue with those folks is simply an act of frustration. The issue here - Communion in the hand - tends to evoke strong emotional responses in some people, and they presume that the emotional response answers the whole question. It is, however, fairly consistent in that it (the emotional response) appears in other issues; e.g. the OFis the cause of the loss of reverance, or the drop off in Mass attendance Mass attendance, or any number of other issues that have evolved over time, usually due to multiple influences. One simply gets a post hoc, ergo propter hoc argument delivered as if it were God’s spoken and revealed truth, never mind that too often the evidence is contrary to their presumptions.

Communion in the hand started primarily in Europe; it started at a time when there was tremendous enthusiasm for liturgical change, liturgical research into the older Church, and liturguical experimentation. Much of the attitude was caused by what was perceived, not entirely incorrectly, as a lot of people showing up for Mass primarily motivated by the fear of Hell, having little or no real knowledge of what was going on in the Mass, and all too often involved in prayers other than those of the Mass. Depending on the parish and the area, more or fewer people owned a missal containing the Latin on one side and the translation on the other; those knew much more of what was going on and actually followed along. The rest, for the greatest part, knew only rote bits of Latin, and were not strongly engaged in the Mass.

People forget (or never knew) that one of the popular questions about Mass attendance was “how late can I come and how early can I leave and still fulfill my obligation?”

In short, the people who are one and two generations away from the 1962 Missal have romantic ideas of what Mass was like to the average person in the pew. They focus on the fact that Communion in the hand was from the bottom up, as opposed to the top down; they have an overriding and Germanic approach to law (particularly Church law) as opposed to a Mediterranian approach, and are horrified that Communion in the hand is, by them, considered to be completely tainted by such a start. They presume tremendously evil intent on all liturgical change and those who brought it about.

My own estimation is that the liturgical experimentation that went on early was altogether too charged with enthusiasm, most of it for a closer relationship with Christ; extremely little common sense; almost no sense of continuity, and troublesome to say the least.

It is also my opinion that more damage was done to the Church by the abrupt and horrific changes to catechesis than was caused by liturgical change. But that is for other threads.

Keep in mind that those who tend to be strongest in condemnation of Communion in the hand are also among those who rejoiced loudly when Ratzinger was made Pope, braying about the coming “slap down” (the term specifically used).

Nobody has been slapped. Again, a Germanic view of Church law, one that presupposes that in a correctly run church, the Pope micro manages the Roman Rite with an iron fist - maybe or maybe not in a velvet glove.
A wonderful response. Thank you.

:bowdown2: :bowdown2: :bowdown2:
 
I think it is a matter of perspective. There are fine lines separating ‘disobedience’ from ‘courageous insistence.’ The same exact arguments (ie that it results from disobedience) are made regarding the indults for the TLM.

A perhaps related question - most people no longer refer to the EF as an indult, because Summorum Pontificum made it widely availble. Is the same true of CIH? It doesn’t seem to me to be an “indult,” which to me means “permission to do something that is against the rules”.
It is my understanding that it is still an indult.

An indult is permission to do something other than the specific rule; not something “against” the rule. Rules are not necessarily black and white; that is, a rule says “do it this way”, and an indult says “and you can also do it that way”. “Against” carries a connotation that it is a violation of the rule. In some instances, a rule may be absolute or bordering on it; at other times, the rule is “we do it this way” and can provide for exceptions. An example is intinction; intinction has been practiced since ancient times in some Eastern rites, and is now also allowed in the Romen rite. We didn’t do it “that way” but “against” would carry a connotation that it was somehow wrong, bordering on implying a moral overlay. Disciplinary rules are not absolutes, although often treated as such; they may be changed.

None of this is to suggest that disciplinary rules are mere guidelines; thay have reasons for existence and are to be followed. They do not carry, however, the weight of moral rules.
 
I am not sure that you can. People in general have not been taught to think critically - that is, they have not been taught logic, and have not been required to think through the statements they make to test them (the statements). Too often one is met with “don’t confuse me with the facts; I already have my mind made up!”

Trying to even discuss the issue with those folks is simply an act of frustration.
Fair enough - lot’s of people on these forums have no clue what an argument looks like and come off as ranting lunatics - but I happen to think these people show up on both sides of most issues. If you’re trying to say that on this particular issue it is only those who oppose communion in the hand who have no critical thinking skills, or that all those who oppose communion in the hand are so challenged, this would unfortunately place you in the same boat.
Communion in the hand started primarily in Europe; it started at a time when there was tremendous enthusiasm for liturgical change, liturgical research into the older Church, and liturguical experimentation.
Yes, that was the general climate, but…
My own estimation is that the liturgical experimentation that went on early was altogether too charged with enthusiasm, most of it for a closer relationship with Christ; extremely little common sense; almost no sense of continuity, and troublesome to say the least.
…we might be willing to overlook irresponsible exuberance in a middle-schooler, but when we’re dealing with supposedly mature men to whom flocks have been entrusted and who stand under oaths of obedience, we’re dealing with a different matter. Sure, they may have acted out of some sort of general good will . . . but you hit the nail on the head when you say they used extremely little common sense (let alone critical thinking!) and almost no sense of continuity. In such a case, I think “troublesome to say the least” is a little to soft; I would venture to say “automatically demands suspicion and crticial evaluation.”

As to the OP’s question about what authority those bishops had who instituted communion in the hand, while I wish the answer were “absolutely none” it is actually “next to none.” Custom has always had a place in canon law, and the fact of the matter is that a bishop can (though I don’t fully understand why) allow (but not mandate) a custom that is against the law, unless such a practice has been specifically reprobated, meaning it has been singled out as something that cannot ever become a legitimate custom.

But that is a very narrow realm of possibilities, and it must also be governed by common sense. Someone would even have to look into whether communion in the hand had been reprobated at any point prior to the '60s. It is clear that the bishops were disobeying the law (since communion in the hand was against the law), it’s simply not clear whether it might have been possible for them to justify this as the introduction of a new custom or not. And, let’s be honest, Paul VI made clear that this was at least borderline scandalous behavior, i.e. it risked “adulterating the true doctrine.” Allowing communion in the hand in their particular situation would be like a bishop of today allowing skipping down the aisles or slapping butts at the sign of peace - something that everyone in the pews would recognize as in violation of the norms of “reverence” in their time and place.

Finally, however, even if the custom argument held up, the story the OP was told about how the bishops had been handed initiative and so weren’t actually being disobedient is simply false. Even while liturgical experimentation was being conducted, it was legally confined to specific locales/congregations trying out specific practices. There was no blanket permission for bishops to “go see what works,” and the bishops had to constantly be reminded that they were not supposed to be doing their own experiments. The bishops involved knew they were being disobedient, they just thought they were justified in doing it and were pretty sure (correctly in this case) that Rome wouldn’t punish them for it.
A perhaps related question - most people no longer refer to the EF as an indult, because Summorum Pontificum made it widely availble. Is the same true of CIH? It doesn’t seem to me to be an “indult,” which to me means “permission to do something that is against the rules”.
Summorum Pontificum changed our liturgical law such that the EF is now an option contained within the law itself: by law, any priest may use it for his private Mass, any pastor may allow it for public Masses in his parish, etc. It used to be that priests could not do this on their own initiative, but needed special permission to do something that was not envisioned in the law itself. That latter situation still holds true for communion in the hand: by law, everyone has a right to communion on the tongue, and it is the only normative option contained in the law itself. However, bishops can request special permission to do something not envisioned by the law, i.e. allow communion in the hand.

You’re right that there seems to be some dissonance, but that’s because you’re including the channels followed to receive permission to “do something against the rules” as part of the rules themselves. For communion, the universal rule is “receive on the tongue.” The fact that Rome lets people ask for permission to break the rule doesn’t change what the rule itself is. If you like, you might refine your definition of indult to “permission to do something the rules only allow you to do with explicit permission from a superior.” That might get closer to the heart of the matter.
 
It is my understanding that it is still an indult.

An indult is permission to do something other than the specific rule; not something “against” the rule. Rules are not necessarily black and white; that is, a rule says “do it this way”, and an indult says “and you can also do it that way”. “Against” carries a connotation that it is a violation of the rule. In some instances, a rule may be absolute or bordering on it; at other times, the rule is “we do it this way” and can provide for exceptions. An example is intinction; intinction has been practiced since ancient times in some Eastern rites, and is now also allowed in the Romen rite. We didn’t do it “that way” but “against” would carry a connotation that it was somehow wrong, bordering on implying a moral overlay. Disciplinary rules are not absolutes, although often treated as such; they may be changed.

None of this is to suggest that disciplinary rules are mere guidelines; thay have reasons for existence and are to be followed. They do not carry, however, the weight of moral rules.
Intinction is actually a very bad example because it is an option envisioned by the law itself - every priest whose liturgical laws permit him to offer both species can legitimately do so under intinction - it’s a universal option. The situation you are describing sounds like “we have several licit options, and we prefer that you use option #1 but you don’t have to.” The reality of indults, though, is that “this is not a licit option according to the law itself, but if you petition higher authority we might be willing to grant you an exception.”

Yes, in a certain sense indults are “rules” that allow you to break other rules, but the distinguishing characteristic is that indults can only be taken advantage of by receiving specific permission from higher authority. So the “rules” in and of themelves spell out what any person of class X can do on his own voliition, i.e. the range of options that he has by nature of the law itself, and “indults” spell out what class X can be allowed to do if individuals of the class request it for themselves and higher authority gives the OK.

It should also be noted that indults need not be something offered to the whole Church as communion in the hand has been. For instance, Croatians had an indult for centuries to celebrate the Mass in a form of vernacular (Glagolithic), but they did not acquire it because some pope centuries ago said “any bishop can request to have Mass in the vernacular,” rather they made a specific request on their own initiative and it was granted to them in particular. In this case there was no extra “rule” to muddy the water by saying that this was a permission that anyone might take advantage of. It was, being contrary to law in force, simply a limited permission to disobey the universal law.
 
It was, being contrary to law in force, simply a limited permission to disobey the universal law.
I find the type of language used by some very interesting.

I will use the snippet from Andreas’ post (above) as an example.

I do not believe the official understanding of the use and meaning of the term indult.

INDULT

A temporary favor granted by the Holy See to bishops to permit them to do something not otherwise allowed. If given for a certain time, it must be renewed by competent ecclesiastical authority. Thus according to the Code of Canon Law, an indult is required for a priest to practice surgery and a cloistered nun needs an indult to travel outside the cloister.

The issue I worry about, the misrepresentation, is using the word as if it is always about breaking the law of the Church rather than allowing options and/or exceptions.
 
I do not believe the official understanding of the use and meaning of the term indult.
Did you complete that sentence? What don’t you believe?
INDULT - A temporary favor granted by the Holy See to bishops to permit them to do something not otherwise allowed. …
That seems like an accurate definition to me. Here’s what the Catholic Encyclopedia says: “Indults are general faculties, granted by the Holy See to bishops and others, of doing something not permitted by the common law.”
The issue I worry about, the misrepresentation, is using the word as if it is always about breaking the law of the Church rather than allowing options and/or exceptions.
The indult is issued so that the law isn’t broken, but rather than an exception is made for that particular bishop. If there were no indult, it would be breaking the law.
 
Sorry re the first sentence of the other post - someone came to the door and I thought I had finished it then when re-reading I ‘saw’ was was intended to be there rather than what really was there.

Back to the concerns about misrepresentation of indults.

Those who are against CITH are very vocal about disobedience and breaking laws.
For a period the TLM, while neither abrogated nor illicit and was still available for private use of priests, an indult was granted for a broader use with permission of the local ordinary. This makes sense because the HMC gave us a new OF (applying the term used by the MP).

I have never heard those who made use of that indult say ‘well isn’t it a good thing, now we have legalized breaking church law’.

Shouldn’t we be consistent in how we talk about ALL items allowed by indult?
 
Those who are against CITH are very vocal about disobedience and breaking laws. For a period the TLM, while neither abrogated nor illicit and was still available for private use of priests, an indult was granted for a broader use with permission of the local ordinary. This makes sense because the HMC gave us a new OF (applying the term used by the MP).
Ah, but this is a very interesting case indeed. In Summorum Pontificum, article 1, Pope Benedict wrote this:The Roman Missal promulgated by Paul VI is the ordinary expression of the ‘Lex orandi’ (Law of prayer) of the Catholic Church of the Latin rite. Nonetheless, the Roman Missal promulgated by St. Pius V and reissued by Bl. John XXIII is to be considered as an extraordinary expression of that same ‘Lex orandi,’ and must be given due honour for its venerable and ancient usage. These two expressions of the Church’s Lex orandi will in no any way lead to a division in the Church’s ‘Lex credendi’ (Law of belief). They are, in fact two usages of the one Roman rite.

**It is, therefore, permissible **to celebrate the Sacrifice of the Mass following the typical edition of the Roman Missal promulgated by Bl. John XXIII in 1962 and never abrogated, as an extraordinary form of the Liturgy of the Church.
What I’m getting at is that the Pope did not “legalize” or “grant permission for” the 1962 Missal in SP; rather, he acknowledged something “in fact”, and noted that, as the 1962 Missal was “never abrogated”, it is permissible to celebrate it. What he did do was regulate its celebration. The indult is no longer required (and as such may never have been, since the Pope didn’t change anything about the 1962 Missal, rather he recognized a fact about it that had been disputed); however, SP describes rules and regulations for the licit celebration of the 1962 Missal. (I could be entirely wrong in this regard; someone, please correct me if that’s the case.)

So, applying this logic to CitH, the Apostolic See never came out and said that receiving in the hand was an “extraordinary form” of receiving Holy Communion; on the contrary, Memoriale Domini stated that “the Holy Father has decided not to change the existing way of administering holy communion to the faithful”; it also calls for obedience to “the law which is still valid and which has again been confirmed”.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top