Have you accepted Jesus as YOUR personal Lord and Saviour???

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elvisman said:
Wrong**.**
We either accept or reject the gift of God’s grace. This is how we are able** to believe in the first place. As**** John 6:29**** says, the work of God is that we believe the one whom he sent. This means that God gives us the means to have faith.**
You’re mistaking “believing”** for having faith – they are NOT** the same. James 2:19** tells us that even the demons believe in God and tremble – but they don’t have faith in God.**
I believe in a lot of things but I do not have faith in them.
**God’s will within us is never forced. We must cooperate with the will of God for it to come to fruition. God is not a spiritual rapist who forces his love on us, but rather, he gives us the *****means ***to have an enduring faith in him. The mere fact that we can fall away tells us that he doesn’t MAKE us stay faithful.
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A good Apology Elvis ! 👍 You’ve recovered from your earlier miscues and are batting 1000 😃
 
brkn1 said:
I understand why you must believe what you do about free will etc.
The whole system of your church requires a faith plus works process to eventually maybe bring a Catholic to salvation, if the Catholic dies in the state of grace etc.
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What the Church has always taught for 2000 years, as well as Scripture is that salvation is a PROCESS. It only comes to those who faithfully endure (Matt. 24:13, Matt. 7:21, John 15:1-9, Romans 11:22, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 4:4, Hebrews 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20).

That is what Jesus said that we must pick up our cross daily and follow him. this is an act of FREE WILL - after being born again (Luke 9:23).
brkn1 said:
What I don’t understand is the need to use the analogy you used in your last paragraph.
You did not need to make your point with such an insultingly crude reference.

“Believing in” and “having faith in” mean the same thing as far as I can see. You will find many references in the Bible that say “believe and you will be saved.” Such faith or belief in Christ must not just be the intellectual kind. It must be from the opening of the spiritual heart, which only God can do according to His Will and not ours.

I think we have all made our points and I expect to leave it at that for now. Thanks.
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Insultingly crude reference? I said that God is not a spiritual rapist who forces his love on us. I actually got that from a Protestant theologian.

As for believing and having faith - the ARE two different things and I PROVED it with Scripture. James 2:19 tells us that even the demons believe in God and tremble – but they don’t** have faith in God.**

Are you now saying that James is wrong? The word of God is wrong? 🤷
 
rev_kevin said:
Who wrote the Scriptures that make up the Bible? Is the Bible the word of God?
Why do you have to have other authority besides the Bible? Do you believe what is in the Bible? Why do Catholics use the Bible to justify their beliefs?
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Did the Bible appear at the foot of the cross? No it did not. In fact for over three hundred years after Christ was crucified there wasn’t a Bible. There wasn’t a final accepted canon. Where did the final accepted canon come from? The Church. The Church is the only one that had the authority to compile the canon of the Bible. Christ gave authority to the Church. The Bible, the word of God -which books were decided to be His inspired word, came from the Church. There were other writings which were not included as inspired. That is why we have the Church as our final authority. The Bible is one part of the teaching tools the Church has given us. Of course we believe what is in the Bible.

When speaking with Protestants, they accept no authority accept the Bible -so we point out where in the Bible our beliefs can be found. They would not accept Sacred Tradition or the Magisterium because when Protestants broke from the Church no longer would accept either of those.
 
po18guy said:
Men inspired by God - some using the Oral Apostolic Tradition. It is this Tradition which allowed Luke and Acts to be written, since Luke was not an eyewitness.
Catholic Church councils, lead by the Holy Spirit, declared the assemblage of scriptures which we have to be the word of God, so, yes. Remember that a lot of writings were tested, but did not make it in. And, 1,500 years later, one MAN, by his own rebellious authority, altered the Holy Spirit’s work.

Because Jesus sent Apostles, not a bible. The bible is incomplete and tells us so in many places.
Jehovah’s Witnesses sure do. Properly interpreted, absolutely.
Actually, the teaching of the Church justifies the bible. The Catholic Church is not bible based, it is Christ based.
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Thank you for answering the questions directly.
 
elvisman said:
Because Catholic knows that the Bible is the Word of God.
We also know that the Word of God is NOT limited to the Bible.

Tell me something - what do you make of John 21:25, where the Apostle tells us, *"*There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written"?

**What about **2 Thess 2:15, where Paul tells us to "Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT OR by a letter from us"?
He says OR a letter - he *doesn’t *say ONLY by a letter of ours.
Paul says that the Church is "the pillar anf foundation of truth" - NOT the Bible.
The Bible is a record of many of the things they taught, but not ALL of what they taught.
NOWHERE in all of Scripture does the Bible claim to be the pillar and foundation of truth.
NOWHERE in all of Scripture does the Bible claim to be the last authority.
NOWHERE in all of Scripture does the Bible claim that it can forgive or retain our sins.

It DOES say, however, that the Church is all these things with the guidance of the Holy Spirit (1 Tim. 3:15, Matt. 16:15-19, 18:15-18, John 16:12-15, 20:21-23).
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You fail. You did not answer the questions you gave other questions which are not answers. I asked direct questions and you could not answer the directly.
 
rev_kevin said:
Thank you for answering the questions directly.
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It is always a pleasure to interact with inquiring brothers in Christ. Please let us know if you need clarification on any issues and we will do the best we can.

The peace of our Risen Lord be with you.
 
rev_kevin said:
You fail. You did not answer the questions you gave other questions which are not answers. I asked direct questions and you could not answer the directly.
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You asked:
rev_kevin said:
Is the Bible the word of God?
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rev_kevin said:
*Do you believe what is in the Bible? *
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Why do Catholics use the Bible to justify their beliefs?
I believe I answered those 3 questions with the following:**
Because Catholic knows that the Bible is the Word of God.
We also know that the Word of God is NOT limited to the Bible.

I also answered this one:
rev_kevin said:
Do you have to have other authority besides the Bible?
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With:
What about 2 Thess 2:15, where Paul tells us to "Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENTOR*** by a letter from us"?***
*He says OR a letter - he ***doesn’t say ONLY by a letter of ours.
Paul says that the Church is “the pillar anf foundation of truth” - NOT the Bible.
***The Bible is a record of many of the things they taught, but not ALL of what they taught. ***

NOWHERE*** in all of Scripture does the Bible claim to be the pillar and foundation of truth.***
NOWHERE*** in all of Scripture does the Bible claim to be the last authority.***
NOWHERE*** in all of Scripture does the Bible claim that it can forgive or retain our sins.***

It DOES say, however, that the Church is all these things with the guidance of the Holy Spirit (1 Tim. 3:15, Matt. 16:15-19, 18:15-18, John 16:12-15, 20:21-23).**

I will now answer the last question you asked:
rev_kevin said:
Who wrote the Scriptures that make up the Bible?
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The Catholic Church (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul, etc)** wrote the New Testament, compiled the writings and declared the Canon of the NT.**
Moses and the prophets wrote the OT.

How’s that? :rolleyes:
 
Let us remember that this is not a competition. It is a search for the fulness of God’s revealed truth. And, taken in that light, we must admit those many times when those who challenge us speak that truth. As well, we must indicate the God-given truth which the Church contains and which has functioned to man’s benefit for almost 2,000 years. As in a companion thread, the bible most certainly is a collection of God’s revealed truth. It is not, however, complete, or is it, as it stands, the sole foundation of the Church. Our Lord established an Apostolic Church and sent Apostles forth. More than once did He breathe His Holy Spirit upon them to remind them of all thart He taught them. They and their successors then wrote much of, and compiled the bible for future generations.

But, in recent times, far too much has been made regarding the collected inspired writings as being all that our Lord gave us - or, the mention of them as being “sufficient”. We are not called to a “sufficient” relationship withour Lord. We are called to abandon ourselves in a total giving of self to our Creator. This is not accomplished through “sufficiency”. We are not to be lukewarm in our embrace of revealed truth, but rather to deny our very self, take up our cross daily and only then follow Jesus.

As baptized believers, we are all brothers and sisters in the Body of Christ. Let us then seek, with humble hearts, the fullest relationship with God that exists on this earth. Christians have, as a possession, the method of teaching that Christ established, as well as the collected inspiration of the authors of the bible. Let us combine this, with the authority given to the Apostles, into the complete and full revelation of God’s truth to man. It is only then that we may truly follow Christ as He intended. But, humbling our hearts is the first step.
 
po18guy I totally agree and am thankful for this dialogue.

I would like to mention to all who have participated in the “bunny trail” debate of predestination vs. free will, that I will be starting a new post on the ancient debate between Augustine and Pelagius. Personally, I have found much in-site by looking at this, especially in light of the fact that Luther was an Augustinian monk and Calvin quotes him more than anyone. Basically, the reformation claims to have it’s roots in Augustine’s teachings. What I want to know is where my Catholic bros and sisters stand on this issue and to what extent is there understanding of this debate.

Peace
 
tsering said:
Jesus did use Scripture to refute Satan, but it’s unfortunate that we have to use them to refute each other. This is not a good argument in your favor, because Satan tried to use Scripture to refute Jesus and he was pretty good I must say. How does one know which side you are on? It is very presumptuous to say that Jesus endorses your argument. (I believe you don’t really mean this, but people can easily draw this conclusion by your loaded statement).
Peace
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Satan was tempting (not refuting) Jesus by using Scripture out of context.
Satan deliberately left out words of Scripture to get a different meaning out of the verse he quoted. He misquoted (Psalm 91:11-12) when he only used “to keep thee”. That verse also said, “to keep thee in all thy ways”, which would not work for what he was trying get across. “In all thy ways” included not tempting the Lord thy God.
If you think Satan’s use of deception in quoting Scripture “was pretty good I must say”, then I have to disagree with your assessment.

Why is it so unfortunate that we use Scripture to refute error in other’s interpretation of Scripture? I have no problem with someone showing me where I misinterpreted Scripture, if they use Scripture without dishonesty and doubletalk. If what they say really lines up with Scripture, I might just be convinced.
Paul did quite a bit of refuting error, including letting Peter have it in no uncertain terms when Peter withdrew from the Gentiles out of fear of the Jews.
 
Vile_Servant said:
Q1: Have you accepted Jesus as your personal Lord and Saviour?

Q2: Do you believe that if you were to die right now, you will go straight to heaven?

If you answered “Yes” to both questions, Hallelujah! you are saved! (according to some Christians)

🙂
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I know, it’s from the 2nd page from the thread, but that’s seriously bugging me.
The second one looks to me as pretty much directly opposed to the catechism (the ‘presumption of salvation’ part)!
I have little contact with protestant christians - I’d like to know, is there really a group that goes around asking that, or was it just sarcasm?
 
I initially accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior when I was about 12 years old. However, I still believe that this had little effect on my salvation. It was when I was baptized that I truly accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.
 
Satan was tempting (not refuting) Jesus by using Scripture out of context.
Satan deliberately left out words of Scripture to get a different meaning out of the verse he quoted. He misquoted (Psalm 91:11-12) when he only used “to keep thee”. That verse also said, “to keep thee in all thy ways”, which would not work for what he was trying get across. “In all thy ways” included not tempting the Lord thy God.
If you think Satan’s use of deception in quoting Scripture “was pretty good I must say”, then I have to disagree with your assessment
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You’re right, he was tempting Him. My bad use of the word. I agree, Satan does pull things out of context, that’s why it is important to know the context of the verse you’re quoting, but more importantly the intent of that verse. Context includes all Scripture, history, grammar and original languages, and I must say the normal interpretations of the Fathers is very important to note…that’s why I invite you to an educated discussion of Augustine vs. Pelagius. And no, I don’t think Satan was actually pretty good…I was being sarcastic…sorry if sarcasm offends you.

It is unfortunate (but necessary) that we have to refute brothers, not a joy. I don’t get giddy over the fact that some are wrong and that they have to be refuted, even if it is necessary. I don’t get excited that some sin, and I would have to hold them accountable. For one, I am fallible myself and constantly need my brothers to sharpen me…but it’s unfortunate when it happens that I didn’t do better and made a mistake or even sinned. Rebuke and correction is something I take seriously. I’m sure that none of the majority refutations of Church history were not light subjects and those involved thought it unfortunate.
 
brkn1 said:
Satan was tempting (not refuting) Jesus by using Scripture out of context.
Satan deliberately left out words of Scripture to get a different meaning out of the verse he quoted. He misquoted (Psalm 91:11-12) when he only used “to keep thee”. That verse also said, “to keep thee in all thy ways”, which would not work for what he was trying get across. “In all thy ways” included not tempting the Lord thy God.
If you think Satan’s use of deception in quoting Scripture “was pretty good I must say”, then I have to disagree with your assessment.

Why is it so unfortunate that we use Scripture to refute error in other’s interpretation of Scripture? I have no problem with someone showing me where I misinterpreted Scripture, if they use Scripture without dishonesty and doubletalk. If what they say really lines up with Scripture, I might just be convinced.
Paul did quite a bit of refuting error, including letting Peter have it in no uncertain terms when Peter withdrew from the Gentiles out of fear of the Jews.
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Ever gonna answer post 123?
 
elvisman said:
What the Church has always taught for 2000 years, as well as Scripture is that salvation is a PROCESS. It only comes to those who faithfully endure (Matt. 24:13, Matt. 7:21, John 15:1-9, Romans 11:22, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 4:4, Hebrews 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20).

That is what Jesus said that we must pick up our cross daily and follow him. this is an act of FREE WILL - after being born again (Luke 9:23).

**Insultingly crude **reference? I said that God is not a spiritual rapist who forces his love on us. I actually got that from a Protestant theologian.

As for believing and having faith - the ARE two different things and I PROVED it with Scripture. James 2:19** tells us that even the demons believe in God and tremble – but they don’t** have faith in God.

Are you now saying that James is wrong? The word of God is wrong? 🤷
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Demons were never offered the opportunity to be saved by believing the Gospel.
Demons have literally seen God, so they know He exists and they obviously have to “believe in God”. They also know that there is coming a time when they will be punished forever in a far greater manner than what they suffer now, so their existence includes a lot of fear and trembling.
I ignored your proof, since the lack of logic in your claim seemed obvious.
 
tsering said:
The authority of God’s word is found Scripture - I don’t think any Catholic disagrees with this statement. We must remember that Catholics see in God’s Scripture that God gave authority to Jesus’ disciples, the Apostles, who then transferred that authority to their disciples who then put together the Scriptures a few centuries after they were written and considered what they did valid because they were given the authority to do so. They also, by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, relied on their oral tradition to decide which books where valid.

Jesus did use Scripture to refute Satan, but it’s unfortunate that we have to use them to refute each other. This is not a good argument in your favor, because Satan tried to use Scripture to refute Jesus and he was pretty good I must say. How does one know which side you are on? It is very presumptuous to say that Jesus endorses your argument. (I believe you don’t really mean this, but people can easily draw this conclusion by your loaded statement).

Now if God’s word was clear, then a majority of Christians who read the words and take them in their natural meaning would agree on some of the key points, correct? My question would be, why do the majority of Christians who read the word, not agree with your interpretation? I even know of many protestants, who believe in Scripture alone as you do, who do not agree with you.

Listen, John Calvin took a long time to write his Institutes…have you read them? Are you a five point Calvinist? I’m sure whether you’ve admitted or not, you have been influenced by certain extra-Biblical systematic theologies and methods of interpretation. What about Luther? I know he believed in predestination. Augustine wrote a lot about predestination…have you read his perspective? I know the Church had to reconcile Augustine’s strong emphasis on predestination with Palagius’ strong emphasis on free-will. Not all of Augustine’s perspectives were accepted - and I respect him for not throwing a fit over it and secluding himself from the Church by pushing his own interpretation over others.

Peace
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This post seems to indicate that you might be a Catholic, since it leans to the defense of the Catholic position. Could I ask if you are a Catholic? Thanks.
 
brkn1 said:
Demons were never offered the opportunity to be saved by believing the Gospel.
Demons have literally seen God, so they know He exists and they obviously have to “believe in God”. They also know that there is coming a time when they will be punished forever in a far greater manner than what they suffer now, so their existence includes a lot of fear and trembling.
I ignored your proof, since the lack of logic in your claim seemed obvious.
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WHAT***??***** **
What does the fact that demons never had the chance to be saved have ANYTHING to do with what I’m talking about?
**I was making a distinction between simply believing and having faith. I was illustrating to you that salvation is a lifelong process – NOT a slam dunk, one-time occurrence. I have given Scripture verses – in *****context ***- to PROVE my point.
**This is the *****best ***you can do??
 
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