Have you ever greeted/spoken to a woman religious not knowing that she was a sister/nun?

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Exactly.
I guess I have never understood this desire for religious to not dress the part or to not be called by their title.
Again, it’s like telling DD to call me P&L instead of Mama.
To me, it denies the vocation.
 
FlatAffect said:
I’ve never known an MD or a PH.D who didn’t want you call them doctor Isn’t that the point–they went through years and years of school so they want everyone to know and call them Dr.–it is a title that automatically demands respect from most of the population.
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I don’t think it’s always the case that you want to hide it. It’s often the case that you don’t like titles. I have a PhD and I never use Dr. When I answer the telephone in my office I always say Good Morning, this is JR.

When I sign my name I only write PhD after my name if a documet requires it.

I belong to a secular institute where we use the title Brother and I don’t use that either. Church law allows us to do so, because we are an institute of consecrated life.

I think it’s a matter of what the person is comfortable with.

As to women religious there has been a problem since the 1700s that they are trying to figure out how to correct.

Up until St. Vincent de Paul founded the Daughters of Charity, every woman religious was a nun. Nuns in the west were called Sister and nuns in the east were called Mother.

When the Daughters of Charity were founded, they were the first religious community of women who were not nuns. They take different vow, which you can go to a thread on Liturgy and Sacraments on Religious and Secular priests that explains all that.

People didn’t know what to call these women who lived a consecrated life. The custom of starting religious communities to work in the apostolate spread like fire. But none of thse women are nuns.

These are the women who teach, do nursing, work in parishes, do social ministries and so forth. A nun is a religious woman who lives in a cloister and never leaves it. Mother Angelica is a nun. Mother Teresa is a woman religious.

Many women religious do not want to be identified as nuns, because they’re not nuns. Unfortunately the title Sister stuck to them. Some religious communities deliberately never wore a habit so as not to be confused with nuns. Elizabeth Ann Seton never gave her religious a habit. They immitated her widow’s gard out of love for her, but it was never in the constitution. Vincent the Paul never gave the Daughters of Charity a habit. It’s not in their constitutions. That’s why the wore the cornette. It was the common garb of peasant women in France. Notice they did not wear a veil. The Missionary Servants of the Blessed Trinity, founded in Maryland in the 1940s never wore any kind of distinctive gard, just a black dress to the knees and a pin on their dress, not even a crucifix. The Capuchins who founded them did not want people to think they were nuns.

I would respect their wishes. If they want to be called Sister they will usually introduce themselves as Sister.

Our friars in our parish do not want to be called Father. They see themselves as friars (Brothers first) then priests. We have seven and three are ordained. But all of them wear the same habit and all are called Brother. Unless you know therm personally, you don’t know who is a priest.

Most people think that the superior of the house is a priest, because he’s the superior. He’s not. He’s a theologian and teaches at a university. The pastor is a priest and the two associates. The janitor is not a priest, the DRE is not a priest and the parish counselor is not a priest. But all go by Brother and dress the same. When they’re not in habit they are in Roman collar or street clothes.

My best advice, go by whatever the individual wants you to call him or her.
And don’t be embarrassed. There is nothing to be embarrassed about.

JR 🙂
 
JReducation said:
Up until St. Vincent de Paul founded the Daughters of Charity, every woman religious was a nun. Nuns in the west were called Sister and nuns in the east were called Mother.

JR 🙂
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You just reminded me of something that changed over the course of my school days.

When I started school, my teacher & the principal were both members of the “Filles de Jésus” congregation. We addressed them as ‘Mother’. I remember one little boy in my class calling Mother Marie-des-Lys ‘mommy’ a few times. Members of that congregation taught in my school until I was in grade 7 and they were always addressed as ‘Mother’.

Interestingly, members of that congregation also ran the hospital where they were addressed as ‘Sister’. By the time I ran into some of them again in high school, they were all being addressed as ‘Sister’. I wonder if it was their role that dictated how we addressed them?
 
JReducation said:
I don’t think it’s always the case that you want to hide it. It’s often the case that you don’t like titles. I have a PhD and I never use Dr. When I answer the telephone in my office I always say Good Morning, this is JR.

When I sign my name I only write PhD after my name if a documet requires it.

I
JR 🙂
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The same with me. I could use the title Dr. and it is used in the parish bulletin and I do sign D.Min. after my name in official letters. Correspondence from the diocese is usually addressed to me as Dr. But I answer my phone using my first name and the only ones who call me Dr. in the parish are a few people who call in looking for information or who don’t know me yet. Even when I teach no one calls me Dr.

Well, one of the priests always calls me Dr. Jo, but it is more of a term of endearment because he was the one who encouraged me to go for the degree. Oh and our HS principal, but since he has it D.Min as well, and when we get together with our elementary school principal who has her Ph.D. it is more like the scene from Spies Like Us…Dr…Dr…Dr…Dr…
 
FlatAffect said:
I’ve never known an MD or a PH.D who didn’t want you call them doctor Isn’t that the point–they went through years and years of school so they want everyone to know and call them Dr.–it is a title that automatically demands respect from most of the population.
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There are those who do not use it outside of professional settings.

It is their choice and it should be respected.
 
Phemie said:
You just reminded me of something that changed over the course of my school days.

When I started school, my teacher & the principal were both members of the “Filles de Jésus” congregation. We addressed them as ‘Mother’. I remember one little boy in my class calling Mother Marie-des-Lys ‘mommy’ a few times. Members of that congregation taught in my school until I was in grade 7 and they were always addressed as ‘Mother’.

Interestingly, members of that congregation also ran the hospital where they were addressed as ‘Sister’. By the time I ran into some of them again in high school, they were all being addressed as ‘Sister’. I wonder if it was their role that dictated how we addressed them?
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In Ireland a certain level of nursing administration is still called “sister” (my SIL was one for years).
 
IMO after 12 yrs in a Catholic school one can spot a sister from a mile away, no matter what they are wearing, but I could be wrong. We have 3 sisters of 3 different orders in the parish. One wears a habit (street length, distinctive, with veil), one wears the business suit habit of her order, short hair, pin identifying the order, the third wears a skirt and blouse. They all wear what we used to all nunnie shoes, but so do I, it’s my age. All three are unmistakebly nuns. Our beloved Benedictines wear black street length skirt and white blouses, the abbess wears a veil. For all of these sisters, their mode of living, speech, relating to people, kindness piety that is ingrained, not for show, unmistakebly identify them.

I am frequently called Sr. Annie even tho the whole parish knows my husband, and I have grandchildren pictures splashed all over my office. for that I will probably burn in purgatory for impersonation, because I definitel do not resemble those lovely ladies in those virtues.

It is to be noted that at least 2 of the religious orders included above were founded specifically for lay women living in the world doing charitable works, and the original members wore the daily dress of laywomen of the time.
 
Eilish_Maura said:
In Ireland a certain level of nursing administration is still called “sister” (my SIL was one for years).
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I’m familiar with that and I think it also extends to Great Britain, Australia & New Zealand. But in Canada there is no title to distinguish rank in the nursing profession. These religious were known as ‘sister’ because they were religious.
 
The confusion came when congregations of religioius women were founded. Until St. Vincent de Paul’s time, there were only Orders of women religious. Orders are for nuns only.

The women religious in our parishes, schools, hospitals, etc, are not nuns. They are women religious.

But at the time the first congregation of women religious was founded, the Church never expected it to take off as it did. The Church never expected to see more and moe congregations of women religious. Therefore, the Church never gave them a proper title.

People called them Sister, because that’s all they knew. They also incorrectly referred to them as nuns, which is also incorrect.

We still incorrectly call Mother Teresa a nun. Mother Teresa was never a nun. She is a woman religious.

They do not make solemn vows, the do not live within a cloister, they do not belong to an Order, nor are they autonomous, as nuns are.

Nuns respond only to the Holy See and to their founder. They have nothing to do with the local diocese, because they do not work for the local diocese. They need permission to establish a house in the diocese. Once that is granted, they are on their own. They are the epitome of women’s lib 🙂 They support and govern themselves. Women religious work for a diocese.

I guess the title Sister or Mother is going to stick, because it’s to late to teach the laity to call them something else.

However, if you read canon law, it does make a distinction between sisters and nuns and states that nuns are called to a higher form of consecration, because they belong to religious orders, which have a higher status within the Church than congregations, societies and institutes.

JR 🙂
 
Eilish_Maura said:
There are those who do not use it outside of professional settings.
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And herein lies the difference regarding titles.

A person who professes the vows or promises of the religious life “becomes” a priest or a religious. It becomes WHO they are, not what they do in a profession.

By contrast, a medical doctor is what someone DOES.

The confusion began when priests and religious started seeing themselves as “professionals” instead of ordained and consecrated.

This confusion, BTW, is also what helped to decimate vocations. Why on earth be celibate and poor when you can be a “professional” and have it all?
 
puzzleannie said:
IMO after 12 yrs in a Catholic school one can spot a sister from a mile away, no matter what they are wearing, but I could be wrong.
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I know a few that I wouldn’t pick out as sisters unless they are in a situation where it suits them to be identified as such.
 
Lepanto said:
And herein lies the difference regarding titles.

A person who professes the vows or promises of the religious life “becomes” a priest or a religious. It becomes WHO they are, not what they do in a profession.

By contrast, a medical doctor is what someone DOES.

The confusion began when priests and religious started seeing themselves as “professionals” instead of ordained and consecrated.

This confusion, BTW, is also what helped to decimate vocations. Why on earth be celibate and poor when you can be a “professional” and have it all?
Click to expand...
subscript is mine

Priests do not make vows. Deacons, priests and bishops receive the Sacrament of Holy Orders. If they are secular they make a promise of obedience to the bishop and a promise of celibacy. The do not make vows of chastity, poverty and obedience.

If a man is a religious, he makes a vow of poverty (does not own property), obedience (not to the bishop, but to his superiors and the founder), chastity (covers more than celibarcy, it includes marriage to the religious community).

Religious men who become priests do not make a promise of obedience to the bishop, because he is not their superior. They do not make a promise of celibacy, because they are already married to their community by virtue of the vow of chastity. Even if celibacy were made optional, it would not apply to religious life.

The Church teaches that the priesthood (deaconate, presbyter, and bishop are states of being, not ways of life). Religious life is a way of life. The married state is a way of life. The priesthood is not a way of life. Priests can choose whatever way of life they want, as long as they don’t belong to a religious community.

Going back to the OP, women religious live a way of life. They live the religious life of their community. Since they live in community, they are sisters to each other. This is how the term Sister first started. As I said before, the first women religious were nuns. Today we have many kinds of women religious. But we confuse them and call them all Sister.

JR 🙂
 
FlatAffect said:
I’ve never known an MD or a PH.D who didn’t want you call them doctor Isn’t that the point–they went through years and years of school so they want everyone to know and call them Dr.–it is a title that automatically demands respect from most of the population.
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Ugh, no, as if - my parents are both doctors (of the medical persuasion) and went through years and years of school so they could help people. Most of whom just call them Brian and Olga with no complaints from them.

And I’d love to hear anyone try to tell them, or my sister who’s also a doctor, that being one doesn’t become part of who you are. It’s like parenting or being a spouse - a 24/7 thing (since people rock up to their home or call them in the middle of the night needing treatment, or they come across the occasional road accident or what have you where their assistance may be required).

I imagine some priests and nuns feel the same - they want to keep the focus on what they do rather than the title, because they became priests and religious to do something, not to be somebody in particular.
 
If I may make a distinction here, maybe it will help or add to the confusion. :eek:

Take secular priests out of this equation. For those who are wondering, Diocesan priests are secular priests, so are Maryknoll, Vincentians and Society of St. Peter, Opus Dei and even SSPX.

That leave us with religious.

Religious can be men and women.

Religious men can be priests if their community allows it, but not all religious men are priests.

Religioius women can be either nuns or sisters. A nun lives in a cloister and never leaves. A sister lives within the community and is apostolic.

Whether you’re a man or a woman, you become a religious to be someone.

For example, if you become a Franciscan, you want to be another Francis of Assisi; a Benedictine wants to be another Benedict; a Dominican another Dominic and so forth.

To these men and women, whether you call them Father, Friar, Brother, Sister or Mother, it’s irrelevant. They are Franciscans, Dominicans, Carmelites, Salesians, Christian Brothers, Xaverians, Missionaries of Charity and so forth.

Their focus is to live the Gospel according to the spirit of their founder. What they do or how they’re called is less important. What’s important to them is how they live the Gospel, according to the vision of their founder.

We lay people get hung up on the titles, habits and other externals. They do not.

In some cultures, titles are very important. Obviously, religious men or women who come from those cultures are going to be more concerned about titles than those who come from cultures such as our own, where titles are usually reserved for those moments when they are necessary.

I’m a PhD in theology. No one ever calls me Dr, not even my students. They call me by my name. My father was a JD in law. How many lawyers use the title Dr? Bill Clinton is a JD so is Hilary Clinton. We never call either of them Dr. Clinton. If Bill had been president in one of the South American countries, where Hispanic culture places a great value on titles, he would have been called the President, Dr. Bill Clinton, not President Clinton.

Many of our older religious came from Europe where titles were important, especially in the Church and the royalty. They brought that tradition with them.

Younger American religious are not in touch with that European custom. The same can be said about young American professionals.

The title is not too important. The professional is more interested in what he or she does. He is passionate about his work. The reiligious is passionate about how she lives the gospel. She loves her religious community and is prouder to say I’m a Franciscan or Salesian, than I’m a Sister.

Saying “I’m a Sister,” doesn’t tell anyone anything about how she lives the gospel.

The same applies to male religious. Saying “I’m a priest or I’m a Brother” doesn’'t say anything about being a Carmelite. They entered the religious community to be Carmelites and they want to promote Carmelite life and spirituality. They want to lead others to Christ using the Carmelite road.

Does this help?

JR 🙂
 
FlatAffect said:
I’ve never known an MD or a PH.D who didn’t want you call them doctor Isn’t that the point–they went through years and years of school so they want everyone to know and call them Dr.–it is a title that automatically demands respect from most of the population.
Click to expand...
My father was a Ph.D and didn’t want anyone to call him doctor outside of his professional circles. He was a very humble man and didn’t want to draw attention to the fact that he had an advanced degree when most others don’t. “It’s not as if I’m a medical doctor, after all,” he would say. “Just call me Ed.” 🙂
 
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