Have you ever walked out of church during Mass?

[MarkThompson]

So is this to say that Catholics should simply tolerate Liturgical abuses, and Priests who are obvious Heretics?

Yes! Tolerate it for the whole hour … and then find a different Mass to go to next week.

If a Mass is not performed in accordance with doctrine, we DO have the right to walk out and find one that is.

As long as you meet your obligation that day (and don’t commit a sin while leaving, like yelling “You should be ashamed of yourselves!” and storming out).

Forcing one’s self to endure something that we’re uncomfortable with does not foster our relationship with God - it detracts from it.

Haha, try telling that to any of God’s beloved martyrs.

We do what we believe is the best thing for that relationship,

No, you do what God and the Church tell you is the best thing for that relationship. You don’t have to follow your heart; people’s hearts and intuition lead them astray all the time. The Enemy is pushing for the dictatorship of relativism: “Oh, I just do what I believe is best, and I have the right not to do anything I think is wrong!”

 

[benedictgal]

I suppose if you walk out of Mass and then go to another one to fulfill your Sunday/Holy Day obligation, then I guess it is acceptable. Remember, obedience to the precepts of the Church is paramount.

Obedience, though, my friend, is a two-way street. Just as the faithful are bound by obligation to assist at Mass, the celebrant is also required to be obedient to the norms and rubrics of the Church. Liturgical Abuse is a grave disobedience because it gives the impression that, no matter what the rubrics of the Church are, the celebrant and/or liturgical collaborators are going to do as they please, based on their idiosyncracies.

Regarding the rights of the Faithful, RS notes the following:

[12.] On the contrary, it is the right of all of Christ’s faithful that the Liturgy, and in particular the celebration of Holy Mass, should truly be as the Church wishes, according to her stipulations as prescribed in the liturgical books and in the other laws and norms. Likewise, the Catholic people have the right that the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass should be celebrated for them in an integral manner, according to the entire doctrine of the Church’s Magisterium. Finally, it is the Catholic community’s right that the celebration of the Most Holy Eucharist should be carried out for it in such a manner that it truly stands out as a sacrament of unity, to the exclusion of all blemishes and actions that might engender divisions and factions in the Church.32

Regarding the issue of liturgical abuse, then-Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, had this to say when he wrote his meditations for the 9th Station:

What can the third fall of Jesus under the Cross say to us? We have considered the fall of man in general, and the falling of many Christians away from Christ and into a godless secularism. **Should we not also think of how much Christ suffers in his own Church? How often is the holy sacrament of his Presence abused, how often must he enter empty and evil hearts! ****How often do we celebrate only ourselves, without even realizing that he is there! **How often is his Word twisted and misused! What little faith is present behind so many theories, so many empty words! … How much pride, how much self-complacency!

The pride does not necessarily come from the folks in this thread who have legitimate complaints, Mark. The pride comes from those who think that they have carte blanche authority to do with as they will to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. I am almost certain that if the Lord were to suddenly materialize, the whips and chords that he used to overturn the money-changers would probably also make an appearance at some of the Masses today. Remember, he castigated the money-changers for making a mockery of His Father’s house since they set up shop in sacred space, the Court of the Gentiles.

I drove off during the Easter Vigil, but wound up having to come back because we had the second-latest start in our diocese. I had to endure a paraphrased version of the Exultet (ilicit), complete with bongo drums and a disjointed organ setting, a paraphrased bilingual Gloria, truncated pslams and Gospel Acclamation and a whole bunch of other things.

 

[MarkThompson]

Obedience, though, my friend, is a two-way street. Just as the faithful are bound by obligation to assist at Mass, the celebrant is also required to be obedient to the norms and rubrics of the Church. Liturgical Abuse is a grave disobedience because it gives the impression that, no matter what the rubrics of the Church are, the celebrant and/or liturgical collaborators are going to do as they please, based on their idiosyncracies.

You’re absolutely correct that the faithful have the right to a liturgy celebrated in perfect accord with the Church’s norms. The question is, what remedy is available when that right is violated? Can we say, “I don’t have to put up with this, I’m leaving!” The answer is no, unless (a) you are not obliged to attend Mass that day, or (b) you will fulfill your obligation that day somewhere else.

The pride does not necessarily come from the folks in this thread who have legitimate complaints, Mark. The pride comes from those who think that they have carte blanche authority to do with as they will to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

You cannot meet pride with pride. Or rather, the priest who pridefully mangles the Mass commits a trespass against the Lord, and against the faithful – how, then, shall the faithful behave? Walk out on their Lord and their obligation? To do so would only compound the disrespect and injury inflicted upon the Lord that day.

I am almost certain that if the Lord were to suddenly materialize, the whips and chords that he used to overturn the money-changers would probably also make an appearance at some of the Masses today. Remember, he castigated the money-changers for making a mockery of His Father’s house since they set up shop in sacred space, the Court of the Gentiles.

And how then will he respond to those who say, “Lord, you commanded me, saying ‘ye shall not go out from the door of the tent of meeting, lest ye die,’ but but the priests permitted moneychangers and dove-sellers to ply their trades at your temple, so I went out from the door, and worshipped no more in your temple”?

I drove off during the Easter Vigil, but wound up having to come back because we had the second-latest start in our diocese. I had to endure a paraphrased version of the Exultet (ilicit), complete with bongo drums and a disjointed organ setting, a paraphrased bilingual Gloria, truncated pslams and Gospel Acclamation and a whole bunch of other things.

Of course, you’re not required to attend the Easter Vigil, unless you know you can’t make it to Mass on Easter Sunday.

 

[napoli426]

Yes. …I have…sometimes it’s so bad…you have to walk out…nothing Unholy can enter Heaven…nothing Unholy can enter in the presence of God…can a Priest who has no reverance…can he enter into the presence of God?..can he?..I don’t know!!!

 

[agp2176]

Um, no, you don’t have any such right, not the way you seem to mean it. If the priest determines that it will be a low Mass with no music, you don’t have a “right” to spontaneously sing an offertory hymn while he is doing the offertory. If he determines that the Mass will be sung with all the Gregorian propers and ordinary, you don’t have a “right” to bellow Holy God We Praise Thy Name over top of it. You can “praise the Lord” in your heart but you don’t get to determine the externals of how that’s going to be done. If you don’t find Gregorian chant very conducive to praising the Lord, well, that’s too bad (literally, in the sense that it’s regrettable; but also figuratively, in the sense that you just have to deal).

I think that you’ve misinterpreted what I said. I agree with you that I do not have the right to take the Mass into my own hands as you describe above. But if the music director feels that all the hymns will be secular songs, or none of them will be in the missalettes (if in fact we have them) such that I sit there and am 'entertained, or the lectors or extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist dress as clowns, or Father preaches a sermon on why Obama or the Tea Party-ers are so bad, or during the Prayers of the faithful people get up and offer their won petitions such as ‘That the Church will see error of Her ways and ordain Women to the preisthood’ … then I do have the right to walk out … and quickly

God bless

Tony

 

[LindaSK]

Clowns and dancing, etc. that make a mockery of the Mass would cause me to leave and find a Mass somewhere else to attend that weekend. Silence, or, in this case, remaining there, would, to my thinking, presume consent. I don’t see it as walking out on Jesus. I see it as the most tactful way of expressing my disappointment of those who are blatantly disrespectful of Jesus in His house, without causing a commotion. It wouldn’t end there for me, though. I would feel an obligation to go back to that priest, the next day if possible, and voice my concern. If all I do is walk out without having the courage to discuss the reasons for walking out with the priest, then walking out is a meaningless gesture. If abuses aren’t addressed, they will only continue. “Evil triumphs when good men do nothing”. We are so concerned about ‘political correctness’ that we are afraid to ‘rock the boat’. Some boats should be rocked, emptied of their contents, and set aright again! That’s my understanding of what Jesus did with the money-changers in the Temple. He saw an abuse. He didn’t just walk out, He ‘cleaned house’ as it were. I do not have the Authority of Christ and am not making myself His equal, but, I think He would not want us to stand idly by when we are aware of abuses in His house. “Offer it up” sounds noble. Having the courage to attempt to address real abuses and heresies is commendable.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

QUOTE: B]No, you do what God and the Church tell you is the best thing for that relationship. You don’t have to follow your heart; people’s hearts and intuition lead them astray all the time. **The Enemy is pushing for the dictatorship of relativism: “Oh, I just do what I believe is best, and I have the right not to do anything I think is wrong!”/**QUOTE]

This is interesting. I have put the above statements in bold because they demonstrate well what I think is fundamentally wrong with the way many priests understand the purpose of Mass. If they followd the first statement in bold there would be no liturgical abuse and heretical preaching. We have been practically brainwashed to believe that anything goes. Well, no it doesn’t. There are rules about how Mass ought to be celebrated for a good reason. Unfortunately, many priests simply choose not to follow them and to give their own individual stamp upon liturgy. Relativism? You bet! I’m convinced that relativism regarding liturgy leads to relativism regarding theology and morals. I have experienced an amazing change in myself once I started going to Mass where the priest is orthodox: he follows the rubrics and teaches what a Catholic priest should teach. These things are connected.

So regarding the second quote, yes, I agree that the Enemy is pushing for the dictatorship of relativism. But it is not only the laity that are affected.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

Quote: *“Offer it up” sounds noble. Having the courage to attempt to address real abuses and heresies is commendable. *

Excellent advice. Thank you.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

No, we do not have to tolerate true liturgical abuse. But the middle of Mass is not the place to start making your feelings known. If it is your parish, you need to make an appointment with the priest and speak to him about whatever issue is the problem. If it id truly against the rules (ceramic chalice say) and the priest refuses to fix it, then involve the Bishop. If you don’t like the homilies or the clothes worn by other parishioners, you can charitably request changes, but that it no reason to leave during Mass.

If some external issues bothers you that much, certainly find another parish. But I would also suggest that you work on closing your mind to distractions and becoming more forgiving of your fellow parishioners.

So is this to say that Catholics should simply tolerate Liturgical abuses, and Priests who are obvious Heretics?

If a Mass is not performed in accordance with doctrine, we DO have the right to walk out and find one that is. Forcing one’s self to endure something that we’re uncomfortable with does not foster our relationship with God - it detracts from it.
We do what we believe is the best thing for that relationship, and if it means leaving Mass because something wasn’t right, so be it.

E.A.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

In your average parish you are not likely to find clowns or dancing. Yes the clown Mass was a huge scandal, not least because it has given anyone who complains about an ordinary Mass cover for their disagreement.

Clowns and dancing, etc. that make a mockery of the Mass would cause me to leave and find a Mass somewhere else to attend that weekend. Silence, or, in this case, remaining there, would, to my thinking, presume consent. I don’t see it as walking out on Jesus. I see it as the most tactful way of expressing my disappointment of those who are blatantly disrespectful of Jesus in His house, without causing a commotion. It wouldn’t end there for me, though. I would feel an obligation to go back to that priest, the next day if possible, and voice my concern. If all I do is walk out without having the courage to discuss the reasons for walking out with the priest, then walking out is a meaningless gesture. If abuses aren’t addressed, they will only continue. “Evil triumphs when good men do nothing”. We are so concerned about ‘political correctness’ that we are afraid to ‘rock the boat’. Some boats should be rocked, emptied of their contents, and set aright again! That’s my understanding of what Jesus did with the money-changers in the Temple. He saw an abuse. He didn’t just walk out, He ‘cleaned house’ as it were. I do not have the Authority of Christ and am not making myself His equal, but, I think He would not want us to stand idly by when we are aware of abuses in His house. “Offer it up” sounds noble. Having the courage to attempt to address real abuses and heresies is commendable.

 

[roadsend]

IMO, if a Mass is so illicit as to be disrespectful or sacrilegious, we do not have a right to walk out, we have an obligation to do so.
Our continued presence can give scandal by implying that we concur with what is going on.
I do not believe that church law requires me to attend an illicit or invalid Mass.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

You are correct to say that Church law requires that a Mass be valid and there are guidelines for the laity to report true liturgical abuses and invalid actions. However, most of the examples given in this thread (including the OP’s, regretable as it was) are not actual liturgical abuse. Poor homilies, impatient priests, bad music, immodest dress and ipods on parishioners do not make a Mass invalid or illicit. Liturgical dance, pompous EMHCs, a free for all at the sign of peace don’t either. All of those things are items to bring up with the pastor outside of Mass. They are things to pray about, and to be charitable yet firm in helping your pastor change at the parish. They are not reasons to walk out of Mass.

IMO, if a Mass is so illicit as to be disrespectful or sacrilegious, we do not have a right to walk out, we have an obligation to do so.
Our continued presence can give scandal by implying that we concur with what is going on.
I do not believe that church law requires me to attend an illicit or invalid Mass.

 

[roadsend]

… Poor homilies, impatient priests, bad music, immodest dress and ipods on parishioners do not make a Mass invalid or illicit. Liturgical dance, pompous EMHCs, a free for all at the sign of peace don’t either…

Blatantly heretical sermons, music repudiated by Church law, and dancing at Mass most certainly render a Mass illicit since these sacrilegious actions are are conducted as part of the Mass itself.
I will not condone these actions by my presence and I do not believe that Church law requires me to do so.
I guess that we have to agree to disagree on this matter.

 

[Ginkgo100]

Kneeling is a problem during the consecration? Almost everyone kneels then at my parish. There are few who are old and/or infirm like myself who can’t kneel (last time I tried was last year on Holy Saturday…and two of the choir members had to literally haul me up again), but I feel like I stick out like a sore thumb.

I’ve never gotten upset enough at anything to leave Mass. I don’t know what it would take for that.

There are some parishes where, contrary to the GIRM norms, the congregation stands during the consecration. At my parish kneeling is the norm (thank goodness). Being heavily pregnant, I literally don’t have enough room to kneel straight up, and probably wouldn’t have the endurance to do so even if there were more space, so I sort of sit back on my haunches. I also currently am sitting for many parts of the Mass that normally require standing (again, due to lack of endurance). My husband has an old knee injury and can’t put his whole weight on his knees, either.

My point is that there certainly are individual circumstances in which a person cannot follow the norms ordinarily asked of the faithful, and these are by no means abusive, wrong, or sinful.

I’ve also never left Mass for unnecessary reasons. Even the most offensive homily I ever heard, which caused me to leave a parish forever, was not enough to get me to leave Mass before the dismissal—to do so on a Sunday would be to fail to meet one’s obligation and therefore a sin (unless you then went to a later Mass).

 

[lilpinky080]

I have gone to the bathroom, but besides that, the only time I’ve actually left was when we were notified that my Grandma had died, a few months ago. So we left around the first reading. The strange, funny thing is we were at a different area church, the one my Grandma was baptized in.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

Quote: However, most of the examples given in this thread (including the OP’s, regretable as it was) are not actual liturgical abuse.

Ouch

Mrs Sally, I think you have a very liberal understanding of what constitutes liturgical abuse. There have been very good examples of it in the thread. GIRM is a very valuable book IMHO and I like priests who take it seriously.

 

[benedictgal]

Quote: However, most of the examples given in this thread (including the OP’s, regretable as it was) are not actual liturgical abuse.

Ouch

Mrs Sally, I think you have a very liberal understanding of what constitutes liturgical abuse. There have been very good examples of it in the thread. GIRM is a very valuable book IMHO and I like priests who take it seriously.

So are Redemptionis Sacramentum and the Constitution on Sacred Liturgy.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Blatantly heretical sermons, music repudiated by Church law, and dancing at Mass most certainly render a Mass illicit since these sacrilegious actions are are conducted as part of the Mass itself.
I will not condone these actions by my presence and I do not believe that Church law requires me to do so.
I guess that we have to agree to disagree on this matter.

Yes we will. I just hope that when you get up to leave you are sure there is a Mass that you can attend to fulfill your obligation for that Sunday. And I continue to thank God for my wonderful pastor who doesn’t allow actions like that at our parish.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

So are Redemptionis Sacramentum and the Constitution on Sacred Liturgy.

Thanks for posting this. I’ll definitely read them.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

You’re absolutely correct that the faithful have the right to a liturgy celebrated in perfect accord with the Church’s norms. The question is, what remedy is available when that right is violated? Can we say, “I don’t have to put up with this, I’m leaving!” The answer is no, unless (a) you are not obliged to attend Mass that day, or (b) you will fulfill your obligation that day somewhere else.

You cannot meet pride with pride. Or rather, the priest who pridefully mangles the Mass commits a trespass against the Lord, and against the faithful – how, then, shall the faithful behave? Walk out on their Lord and their obligation? To do so would only compound the disrespect and injury inflicted upon the Lord that day.

And how then will he respond to those who say, “Lord, you commanded me, saying ‘ye shall not go out from the door of the tent of meeting, lest ye die,’ but but the priests permitted moneychangers and dove-sellers to ply their trades at your temple, so I went out from the door, and worshipped no more in your temple”?

Of course, you’re not required to attend the Easter Vigil, unless you know you can’t make it to Mass on Easter Sunday.

Very thoughtfully stated. I do not agree with any kind of liturgical abuse, but the place to start corrections is not during the Mass itself which we miss at our own peril. Since many here are speaking about their own home parishes, their obligation is to develop a relationship with the priest and work to change these practices outside of the actual Mass. Benedictgal (and others) have my respect for their knowledge of the ins and outs of the regulations. But as you say, we are not required to attend the Vigil and can always choose to attend at a different parish that has a more reverent Mass any Sunday.