Have you heard of Centering Prayer?

[Marsha_Adams]

I remember reading a book about prayer written by a monk. He mentioned a fellow monk who strove to pray the rosary constantly. Their beds were actually shelves protruding from the wall of their cells. One night, their was a loud crash in the night, followed by the words of the rosary. The monk’s bed had fallen off the wall, but even that did not break his constant prayer.

I’m afraid if my bed collapsed under me in the middle of the night, prayer would not be my first words. LOL

Marsha

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Well as a Catholic, who has been doing Centering Prayer for the past 30 years, as taught by Thomas Keating, I have found that the opposition against it come’s from people who are ignorant about it. It amazes me that people who know so little about it, can profess to be such experts.

Anyway, for me, the Rosary didn’t become the deep level of praying that it is, until I learned Centering Prayer. Neither are techniques which bring us to contemplation, but methods which quite the heart in order for us to be open to God, which contemplation is.

How can anyone tell me, that repeating the phrase, “Lord Jesus,” is dangerous? Is repeating Hail Mary dangerous?

How can it be dangerous, to open yourself up to God’s transforming grace, which is the core of Centering Prayer?

Contemplation, is being open to union with Christ. It is the path to the spiritual marriage, which He draws us towards.

Centering Prayer, which is like the mental prayer described by St. Teresa, is a path that brings us to the quiet place in the heart, where Christ dwells.

As Teresa says, God speaks best to us in the depth of our being.
Centering prayer merely brings us to that place. God does the rest.

Jim OCDS

 

[whosebob]

Well as a Catholic, who has been doing Centering Prayer for the past 30 years, as taught by Thomas Keating, I have found that the opposition against it come’s from people who are ignorant about it. It amazes me that people who know so little about it, can profess to be such experts …

JMJ + OBT​

Your points are well made; however, I would point out that Fr. Dubay – a renowned expert on Catholic ascetical theology, particularly the writings of St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross – has expressed a decidedly negative opinion of Centering Prayer, at least in the form and manner in which it has been popularly promoted in recent years. He could hardly be charactized as ignorant on this subject.

His principal gripe is that, though limited CP may have some value for persons who are transitioning from an intermediate to advanced stage in their prayer lives (per the admonitions of St. Teresa of Avila in that regard), CP today is often taught and encouraged among men and women who are just beginning to explore the depths of Christian prayer, and Fr. Dubay sees that as a big mistake. According to Dubay, beginners shoud not be taught to empty their minds as a means or manner of praying; they should instead be encouraged to focus their mental powers on Jesus Christ. In CP’s place, Fr. Dubay suggests that beginners be instructed to conduct a simple, wordless meditation on the indwelling of the Blessed Trinity within their souls (again per the admonitions of St. Teresa of Avila). And if I remember correctly, he also suggests Lectio Divina as a good program of mental prayer for beginners.

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.

IC XC NIKA

 

[JimR-OCDS]

JMJ + OBT​

Your points are well made; however, I would point out that Fr. Dubay – a renowned expert on Catholic ascetical theology, particularly the writings of St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross – has expressed a decidedly negative opinion of Centering Prayer, at least in the form and manner in which it has been popularly promoted in recent years. He could hardly be charactized as ignorant on this subject.

His principal gripe is that, though limited CP may have some value for persons who are transitioning from an intermediate to advanced stage in their prayer lives (per the admonitions of St. Teresa of Avila in that regard), CP today is often taught and encouraged among men and women who are just beginning to explore the depths of Christian prayer, and Fr. Dubay sees that as a big mistake. According to Dubay, beginners shoud not be taught to empty their minds as a means or manner of praying; they should instead be encouraged to focus their mental powers on Jesus Christ. In CP’s place, Fr. Dubay suggests that beginners be instructed to conduct a simple, wordless meditation on the indwelling of the Blessed Trinity within their souls (again per the admonitions of St. Teresa of Avila). And if I remember correctly, he also suggests Lectio Divina as a good program of mental prayer for beginners.

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.

IC XC NIKA

I know well of Fr Dubay and have read his book, “The Fire Within.”

I have also heard him speak of Centering Prayer and his caution on it. However, he was not speaking about Centering Prayer, as Fr. Keating has taught it, but the distorted things that people say about Centering Prayer.

As as experienced person in the practice of Centering Prayer, nothing Fr. Dubay says contradicts Centering Prayer, nor does it sway me away from it, but confirms what is experienced in it. That experience is from the grace given by Jesus Christ.

The first spiritual assistant to my Discalced Carmelite Group, who was a friend of Fr Basil Pennington, told me that he did not agree with Centering Prayer and even said, “it scares me.” After I talked to him a little, I could see, he did not understand what it was, but had false notions about it. After my explanation, he agreed that it was a good form of prayer and had no problems with it. Later other spiritual assistant’s who did centering prayer themselves, were able to make the connection to St. Teresa’s writings.

Fr. Keating said it probably would’ve been better received among Catholics, had they come up with a different name, i.e. Christian mental prayer, or something else. But the fact that you are brought to the center of your being in this prayer, where Christ dwells, Centering Prayer was the most accurate.

Jim

 

[Em_in_FL]

I have not personally explored Centering Prayer in depth (just a light persual of Fr. Keating’s books)… but I have known several who have (specifically under the Fr. Keating lessons)… and it’s only been a positive, Catholic experience as far as I can tell!
Not for everyone… but certainly not a bad form of prayer!

It’s something I would eventually like to learn more about.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I have not personally explored Centering Prayer in depth (just a light persual of Fr. Keating’s books)… but I have known several who have (specifically under the Fr. Keating lessons)… and it’s only been a positive, Catholic experience as far as I can tell!
Not for everyone… but certainly not a bad form of prayer!

It’s something I would eventually like to learn more about.

thecentering.org/centering_method.html

I can’t recommend this by Fr Keating book more. It’s three of his best in one.

Foundations for Centering Prayer and the Christian Contemplative Life: Open Mind, Open Heart, Invitation to Love, Mystery of Christ

 

[DBT]

As as experienced person in the practice of Centering Prayer, nothing Fr. Dubay says contradicts Centering Prayer, nor does it sway me away from it, but confirms what is experienced in it. That experience is from the grace given by Jesus Christ.

Hi Jim -

I think you made your points well . . . but I’d like to go back to the comments Whosebob made about “readiness” and get your opinion.

I’ve noted in previous threads the similarities between CP and what St. Teresa teaches about the Prayer of Recollection and the Prayer of Quiet. At the same time, she is also very mindful of the soul’s “readiness” to receive the gift of infused contemplation — and I think that’s one of the basic premises behind the concept of the Mansions in “Interior Castle.”

While I can see the usefulness of something like CP when one has been brought to the Prayer of Recollection or Prayer of Quiet (4th Mansion); I just can’t see St. Teresa approving of such a method for those who have not yet been brought to this way of prayer. Maybe I’m wrong, but this type of method seems so out of the character of the type of things she discusses in the first 3 Mansions . . . the rooms most people spend their entire lives.

While I do believe contemplation is a universal possibility open to all, St. Teresa makes clear distinctions between how contemplatives and pre-contemplatives should pray. Again I might be mistaken, but I don’t get that same impression with how I’ve seen CP presented . . . even from Fr. Keating.

Given that you’re both a Secular Carmelite and CP practicioner, do you think “readiness” is a valid concern?

Thanks.
Dave

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Hi Jim -

I think you made your points well . . . but I’d like to go back to the comments Whosebob made about “readiness” and get your opinion.

I’ve noted in previous threads the similarities between CP and what St. Teresa teaches about the Prayer of Recollection and the Prayer of Quiet. At the same time, she is also very mindful of the soul’s “readiness” to receive the gift of infused contemplation — and I think that’s one of the basic premises behind the concept of the Mansions in “Interior Castle.”

While I can see the usefulness of something like CP when one has been brought to the Prayer of Recollection or Prayer of Quiet (4th Mansion); I just can’t see St. Teresa approving of such a method for those who have not yet been brought to this way of prayer. Maybe I’m wrong, but this type of method seems so out of the character of the type of things she discusses in the first 3 Mansions . . . the rooms most people spend their entire lives.

While I do believe contemplation is a universal possibility open to all, St. Teresa makes clear distinctions between how contemplatives and pre-contemplatives should pray. Again I might be mistaken, but I don’t get that same impression with how I’ve seen CP presented . . . even from Fr. Keating.

Given that you’re both a Secular Carmelite and CP practicioner, do you think “readiness” is a valid concern?

Thanks.
Dave

Teresa is talking about the levels of contemplation. CP is not contemplation, but a method or discipline in opening our hearts to comtemplation.

Any transformation taking place in us, is done by God, not ourselves. So, being ready is really something that God decides, not us. We merely need to be open to God by lovingly surrendering ourselves to Him.

In Christ
Jim

 

[Joysong]

JimR:

Teresa is talking about the levels of contemplation. CP is not contemplation, but a method or discipline in opening our hearts to comtemplation.

I feel like deja-vu, for this has been discussed so many times whenever the topic comes up. Knowing human nature that folks do not enjoy browsing through many lengthly threads, I have no objection to posting this information again, for there are always some people who may be needing to read it.

[Life of St. Teresa of Avila, Chapter XXII]

There are some, of course, whom God leads by a very exalted road; and these think that others can make progress in the same way – by quieting the understanding and making no use of corporeal aids to devotion – but if such persons act thus they will remain as dry as sticks. There are others who have attained a certain degree of quiet and at once think that, as they have done this, they can do everything else. But, instead of gaining in this way, they will lose, as I have said. So experience and discretion are necessary in everything.

To come now to the second point: we are not angels and we have bodies. To want to become angels while we are still on earth, and as much on earth as I was, is ridiculous. As a rule, our thoughts must have something to lean upon, though sometimes the soul may go out from itself and very often may be so full of God that it will need no created thing to assist it in recollection. But this is not very usual…

This withdrawal from the corporeal must doubtless be good, since it is advised by such spiritual people,** but my belief is that it must be practised only when the soul is very proficient:** until then, it is clear, the Creator must be sought through the creatures.

catholicfirst.com/thefaith/catholicclassics/stteresa/life/teresaofavila6.cfm#CHAPTER%20XXII

Although I did not respond to your other post where you felt it was a good idea for children to practice this, I respectfully disagree, based on these teachings from St. Teresa. The mind grows in stages like the body, and children are just not capable of sitting idly for 20-minutes as recommended, and focusing on a prayer word. The mind must do its work of drawing water, as she calls it.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I feel like deja-vu, for this has been discussed so many times whenever the topic comes up. Knowing human nature that folks do not enjoy browsing through many lengthly threads, I have no objection to posting this information again, for there are always some people who may be needing to read it.

Although I did not respond to your other post where you felt it was a good idea for children to practice this, I respectfully disagree, based on these teachings from St. Teresa. The mind grows in stages like the body, and children are just not capable of sitting idly for 20-minutes as recommended, and focusing on a prayer word. The mind must do its work of drawing water, as she calls it.

Again, St. Teresa is talking about levels of contemplation, not methods of prayer. What your suggesting would also mean a person shouldn’t say the Rosary, until they’ve gone through to some level of spiritual formation.

Such is not the case.

 

[whosebob]

Again, St. Teresa is talking about levels of contemplation, not methods of prayer. What your suggesting would also mean a person shouldn’t say the Rosary, until they’ve gone through to some level of spiritual formation.

JMJ + OBT​

It doesn’t strike me that way, Jim. According to St. Teresa, souls progressing through the first few Mansions don’t experience infused contemplation per se; and I think that St. Teresa’s point is that most such souls (but not all) aren’t ready to use CP or a CP-like method in order to open their hearts to infused contemplation. She is suggesting that they need to make progress with other types of mental prayer which will, over time, help to prepare them to open themselves to infused contemplation: the Rosary, Liturgy of the Hours, Lectio Divina, meditation on the indwelling of the Blessed Trinity, Stations of the Cross, Divine Mercy Chaplet, etc. would seem to “fit the bill.” Then it may be advisable for the person to employ CP or something similar as they begin to reach the crossover from the 4th to 5th Mansions, preferably under the guidance of a seasoned spiritual director.

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.

IC XC NIKA

 

[whosebob]

Again, St. Teresa is talking about levels of contemplation, not methods of prayer. What your suggesting would also mean a person shouldn’t say the Rosary, until they’ve gone through to some level of spiritual formation.

JMJ + OBT​

It doesn’t strike me that way, Jim. According to St. Teresa, souls progressing through the first few Mansions don’t experience infused contemplation per se; and I think that St. Teresa’s point is that most such souls (but not all) aren’t ready to use CP or a CP-like method in order to open their hearts to infused contemplation. She is suggesting that they need to make progress with other types of mental prayer which will, over time, help to prepare them to open themselves to infused contemplation: the Rosary, Liturgy of the Hours, Lectio Divina, meditation on the indwelling of the Blessed Trinity, Stations of the Cross, Divine Mercy Chaplet, etc. would seem to “fit the bill.” Then it may be advisable for the person to employ CP or something similar as they begin to reach the crossover from the 4th to 5th Mansions, preferably under the guidance of a seasoned spiritual director.

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.

IC XC NIKA

 

[whosebob]

Again, St. Teresa is talking about levels of contemplation, not methods of prayer. What your suggesting would also mean a person shouldn’t say the Rosary, until they’ve gone through to some level of spiritual formation.

JMJ + OBT​

It doesn’t strike me that way, Jim. According to St. Teresa, souls progressing through the first few Mansions don’t experience infused contemplation per se; and I think that St. Teresa’s point is that most such souls (but not all) aren’t ready to use CP or a CP-like method in order to open their hearts to infused contemplation. She is suggesting that they need to make progress with other types of mental prayer which will, over time, help to prepare them to open themselves to infused contemplation: the Rosary, Liturgy of the Hours, Lectio Divina, meditation on the indwelling of the Blessed Trinity, Stations of the Cross, Divine Mercy Chaplet, etc. would seem to “fit the bill.” Then it may be advisable for the person to employ CP or something similar as they begin to reach the crossover from the 4th to 5th Mansions, preferably under the guidance of a seasoned spiritual director.

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.

IC XC NIKA

 

[whosebob]

Again, St. Teresa is talking about levels of contemplation, not methods of prayer. What your suggesting would also mean a person shouldn’t say the Rosary, until they’ve gone through to some level of spiritual formation.

JMJ + OBT​

It doesn’t strike me that way, Jim. According to St. Teresa, souls progressing through the first few Mansions don’t experience infused contemplation per se; and I think that St. Teresa’s point is that most such souls (but not all) aren’t ready to use CP or a CP-like method in order to open their hearts to infused contemplation. She is suggesting that they need to make progress with other types of mental prayer which will, over time, help to prepare them to open themselves to infused contemplation: the Rosary, Liturgy of the Hours, Lectio Divina, meditation on the indwelling of the Blessed Trinity, Stations of the Cross, Divine Mercy Chaplet, etc. would seem to “fit the bill.” Then it may be advisable for the person to employ CP or something similar as they begin to reach the crossover from the 4th to 5th Mansions, preferably under the guidance of a seasoned spiritual director.

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.

IC XC NIKA

 

[whosebob]

Again, St. Teresa is talking about levels of contemplation, not methods of prayer. What your suggesting would also mean a person shouldn’t say the Rosary, until they’ve gone through to some level of spiritual formation.

JMJ + OBT​

It doesn’t strike me that way, Jim. According to St. Teresa, souls progressing through the first few Mansions don’t experience infused contemplation per se; and I think that St. Teresa’s point is that most such souls (but not all) aren’t ready to use CP or a CP-like method in order to open their hearts to infused contemplation. She is suggesting that they need to make progress with other types of mental prayer which will, over time, help to prepare them to open themselves to infused contemplation: the Rosary, Liturgy of the Hours, Lectio Divina, meditation on the indwelling of the Blessed Trinity, Stations of the Cross, Divine Mercy Chaplet, etc. would seem to “fit the bill.” Then it may be advisable for the person to employ CP or something similar as they begin to reach the crossover from the 4th to 5th Mansions, preferably under the guidance of a seasoned spiritual director.

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.

IC XC NIKA

 

[whosebob]

It doesn’t strike me that way, Jim …

JMJ + OBT​

Yikes! I didn’t post that multiple times to make a point … something went wrong with the forums server … I’ll post a note to a forums moderator asking him/her to clean up the dupes.

In Christ.

IC XC NIKA

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I feel like deja-vu, for this has been discussed so many times whenever the topic comes up. Knowing human nature that folks do not enjoy browsing through many lengthly threads, I have no objection to posting this information again, for there are always some people who may be needing to read it.

Although I did not respond to your other post where you felt it was a good idea for children to practice this, I respectfully disagree, based on these teachings from St. Teresa. The mind grows in stages like the body, and children are just not capable of sitting idly for 20-minutes as recommended, and focusing on a prayer word. The mind must do its work of drawing water, as she calls it.

If they’re not ready for it, they will not stay with it because it will be dry, as Teresa is said. CP does not exclude other forms of prayer.

Teaching CP isn’t much different than teaching a person to say the Rosary. When is a child ready to learn to say the Rosary? A child saying a Rosary is going to be at a different level than an adult who has been living a comtemplative prayer life. So is the same for CP.

I know you don’t agree and that’s fine.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

JMJ + OBT​

It doesn’t strike me that way, Jim. According to St. Teresa, souls progressing through the first few Mansions don’t experience infused contemplation per se; and I think that St. Teresa’s point is that most such souls (but not all) aren’t ready to use CP or a CP-like method in order to open their hearts to infused contemplation. She is suggesting that they need to make progress with other types of mental prayer which will, over time, help to prepare them to open themselves to infused contemplation: the Rosary, Liturgy of the Hours, Lectio Divina, meditation on the indwelling of the Blessed Trinity, Stations of the Cross, Divine Mercy Chaplet, etc. would seem to “fit the bill.” Then it may be advisable for the person to employ CP or something similar as they begin to reach the crossover from the 4th to 5th Mansions, preferably under the guidance of a seasoned spiritual director.

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.

IC XC NIKA

I realised that I had not expressed my self correctly. So I deleted the post.

St. Teresa has to be read in full, because in some places she re-defines what she wrote earlier and it makes more sense. Writing wasn’t a strong point for Teresa, which is why I prefer St. John of the Cross.

As I recall, she says that not everyone enters the mansions the same way. Some may start higher, and be brought back to lower mansions. People don’t necessarily move through the mansions in some sort of chronological series of steps, as if completing a college degree program. Also keep in mind, Teresa was teaching something that was very knew to her time and culture.

It may very well be that a person just entering the life of prayer, moves into deep contemplation and other’s, even though they’ve lived their lives in a monastery all their lives, never reach the same level.

Either way, CP is not contemplation, but a method of prayer, which is not necessarily deeper than saying the Rosary.

How deep into contemplation a person moves, whether through CP or other methods of prayer, depends on their openess to God.

The little Children of Fatima, were a lot father in contemplation than I’ll ever be, even after 30 years of prayer.

 

[DBT]

JMJ + OBT​

According to St. Teresa, souls progressing through the first few Mansions don’t experience infused contemplation per se; and I think that St. Teresa’s point is that most such souls (but not all) aren’t ready to use CP or a CP-like method in order to open their hearts to infused contemplation. She is suggesting that they need to make progress with other types of mental prayer which will, over time, help to prepare them to open themselves to infused contemplation: the Rosary, Liturgy of the Hours, Lectio Divina, meditation on the indwelling of the Blessed Trinity, Stations of the Cross, Divine Mercy Chaplet, etc. would seem to “fit the bill.” Then it may be advisable for the person to employ CP or something similar as they begin to reach the crossover from the 4th to 5th Mansions, preferably under the guidance of a seasoned spiritual director.

Very well said:dancing:

Dave

And, I might add, growth in the practice of virtue is the single most important thing one can do – and this is practically the only thing to which St. Teresa speaks in the early mansions. Growth in virtue is simultaneously the path to and *confirmation of *the contemplation the soul seeks and is so critically important that any discussion of contemplation, methods or techniques without addressing this truism is to miss the point entirely. The sad thing is, though, that I’ve only rarely seen the concept of virtue even hinted at in a CP thread around here in over 2+ years – an indication to me that CP practitioners don’t really understand who their audience is.

 

[Joysong]

Dear DBT,

:dancing:

[sign]Very true! Good post![/sign]