Have your arm relaxing on pew inside the church?

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Walking_Home said:
Yes we call God —Father and we should give him the as Father of the universe. When we start putting the emphasis on friend and brother—we become complacent in our actions and attitude towards Him. It is already being reflected in our manner of dress (anything goes), how we act in church ( becoming a social hr), etc.
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Respectfully, I disagree and vehemently. I believe you are confusing child-like trust in God with irreverence. Consider the following two quotes from my patron saint, Alphonsus Liguori (theologian and Doctor of the Church):
True, He is infinite Majesty, but He is also infinite Goodness and infinite Love. There can be no greater Lord than God; neither can there be a more ardent lover than He.
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It is a great mistake, as we have already remarked, to be afraid of Him and to act in His presence like a timid and craven slave trembling with fright before his master.
Alphonsus Liguori
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Christ himself commands us to entreat God as a loving Father, even using the familiar and child-like “Abba”. I do not believe for a moment that approaching God this way increases irreverance or complacency. Complacency is fostered by a lack of prayer and doing the bare minimum out of a sense of routine or drudging duty; like going to the DMV or paying your taxes. I do believe that people’s prayer lives fall into three main categories:
  1. Rote repetition out of duty; (e.g. saying the “Our Father” at church when one really doesn’t want to be there).
  2. Supplication as if from a king or government, hoping God will hear our requests.
  3. Going to God in all love like a little child, knowing that He is Love.
I think people’s prayer lives can a have elements of two or maybe even all three. I believe when someone’s prayer life is in Category 1 above is where the most complacency and irreverence exists.

When one petitions the government, they hope to have their supplication heard, but almost expect not to receive it. When a 5 year old asks his loving father for some food, he does so in all confidence that his request will be answered.

When one approaches God as his loving Father and Christ as his loving Brother there is no room in his heart for complacency. This kind of prayer embodies ferverent belief.

I say the above in all humility because I am quite the sinner myself.
 
chicago said:
What ever happened to tradition?
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tradition with a lower case “t” changes over time and should not be confused with the Tradition that has been handed down from the Apostles.

If we take the portion of the document linked as a hard line as to the way it is, then we need to have a seating chart for the laity and rearrange where and how the presbyters sit in the church buildings. It’s a long series of chapters, scan them. It’s great stuff, but it is also obviously dated to the time and place where it was written.

I liked this part:
Let the younger women also sit by themselves, if there be a place for them; but if there be not, let them stand behind the women. Let those women which are married, and have children, be placed by themselves; but let the virgins, and the widows, and the elder women, stand or sit before all the rest; and let the deacon be the disposer of the places, that every one of those that comes in may go to his proper place, and may not sit at the entrance.
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The deacons are also the ushers, and militantly so.

And this:
Then let the men give the men, and the women give the women, the Lord’s kiss.
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Many will see that the Lord’s kiss has been replaced with the sign of peace. Let’s go back to the traditional way. Men smooch the men and women the women only. Come on Church, let’s get back that old time religion! I am all for it! What will all the “don’t touch my hand during the sign of peace” people do now? :rotfl:
 
puzzleannie said:
this very helpful link from a concurrent thread on this forum should answer everyone’s posture and deportment questions
Sec. VII.—On Assembling in the Church.
An Exact Description of a Church and the Clergy, and What Things in Particular Every One is to Do in the Solemn Assemblies of the Clergy and Laity For Religious Worship.
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf07.ix.iii.vii.html

so there.
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All bickering aside this was a very interesting read on how the early church celebrated the Mass. I bookmarked it.👍
 
Alphonsus_John said:
Respectfully, I disagree and vehemently. I believe you are confusing child-like trust in God with irreverence. Consider the following two quotes from my patron saint, Alphonsus Liguori (theologian and Doctor of the Church):

Christ himself commands us to entreat God as a loving Father, even using the familiar and child-like “Abba”. I do not believe for a moment that approaching God this way increases irreverance or complacency. Complacency is fostered by a lack of prayer and doing the bare minimum out of a sense of routine or drudging duty; like going to the DMV or paying your taxes. I do believe that people’s prayer lives fall into three main categories:
  1. Rote repetition out of duty; (e.g. saying the “Our Father” at church when one really doesn’t want to be there).
  2. Supplication as if from a king or government, hoping God will hear our requests.
  3. Going to God in all love like a little child, knowing that He is Love.
I think people’s prayer lives can a have elements of two or maybe even all three. I believe when someone’s prayer life is in Category 1 above is where the most complacency and irreverence exists.

When one petitions the government, they hope to have their supplication heard, but almost expect not to receive it. When a 5 year old asks his loving father for some food, he does so in all confidence that his request will be answered.

When one approaches God as his loving Father and Christ as his loving Brother there is no room in his heart for complacency. This kind of prayer embodies ferverent belief.

I say the above in all humility because I am quite the sinner myself.
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As often happens—we do seem to take advantage of those who love us the most. We can use that great love He has for us to justify our own short–comings. After all – He will always love us—so why really bother —.
 
Walking Home you completely missed the meaning of Alphonsus’ post. You have your views and seem to know everyone elses heart and intentions. It’s obvious this is not a discussion for you but a platform where no one else is heard because they are so obviously wrong. It’s funny how accuse others of shortcomings and can not see your own. I see no need to waste any more time on this thread.

God Bless.
 
I don’t know if it’s wrong, per se, but I think it goes along the lines of how we respect our Lord. Of course, it’s in our hearts that we really show our respect.

I think it’s disrespectful for me to wear anything less than slacks and a button-down shirt and loafers to Sunday Mass, to pray at any time with my legs crossed or my arms across the back of the pew. I also try to maintain respectful silence before Mass, and prepare myself for this moment of heaven on earth.

I don’t think it’s scandal whatever anyone else does, though my mind does get distracted when such things are seen, but I don’t judge, and try to keep my mind on the reason for attending Mass.

To me, Scott Hahn said it best, to paraphrase, the only really scandalous thing going on at Mass is that we all are not worthy to receive our Lord in the Eucharist.
 
rayne89 said:
Walking Home you completely missed the meaning of Alphonsus’ post. You have your views and seem to know everyone elses heart and intentions. It’s obvious this is not a discussion for you but a platform where no one else is heard because they are so obviously wrong. It’s funny how accuse others of shortcomings and can not see your own. I see no need to waste any more time on this thread.

God Bless.
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You got a great link and a book marked reference site out of it !!! I was being very serious when I said that ccel.org is GREAT 🙂
 
Walking_Home said:
As often happens—we do seem to take advantage of those who love us the most. We can use that great love He has for us to justify our own short–comings. After all – He will always love us—so why really bother —.
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We can and do. Our failings do not make Christ’s teaching wrong or nullify them in any way. We just have to pick up our mat and walk.

What do you mean by “low christology”, BTW?
 
chicago said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walking_Home
Not when taken in context – of what a bishop is to be.
It is not a sign of anger or cruelty—but of charity to correct what is going wrong. It is a sign that a bishop a bishop cares for his flock.

Yes, when taken in context of the rest of that statement “exhort” doesn’t mean to “crack down” with heavy hand. Rather, what the average bishop does these days would be found quite acceptable in way of exhortation along with “building up, converting, teaching, forbearing of evil, unstriking, uncruel, of gentle mind, meek, long suffering, not soon angry, nor cruel.”

But you do a mighty good job of interpolating all kinds prefered meanings into statements to meet an agenda, by isolating a phrase, I must say.
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Look at who is taking about meeting an agenda. Do you not think a bishop can exhort while at the same time incorporate the other attributes. Even today – a bishop is to reprove when it is called for—or is this considered to extreme by your standards.

One more thing. If as you said-- the bishops in general are doing an acceptable job—the Church would not have to issue documents like RS–2004–now would She. The fact that She has --says otherwise.

encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861609756/exhort.html

exhort
  1. transitive verb urge to do something: to urge somebody strongly and earnestly to do something
  2. intransitive verb give earnest advice: to give somebody urgent or earnest advice
RS–2004

[22.] The Bishop governs the particular Church entrusted to him,[47] and it is his task to regulate, to direct, to encourage, and sometimes also to reprove;[48] this is a sacred task that he has received through episcopal Ordination,[49] which he fulfills in order to build up his flock in truth and holiness.[50] He should elucidate the inherent meaning of the rites and the liturgical texts, and nourish the spirit of the Liturgy in the Priests, Deacons and lay faithful[51] so that they are all led to the active and fruitful celebration of the Eucharist,[52] and in like manner he should take care to ensure that the whole body of the Church is able to grow in the same understanding, in the unity of charity, in the diocese, in the nation and in the world.[53]
 
Walking_Home said:
You mean undermining His own Mass—No God does not work that way. Nice try though.
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Wow, and I thought God works in mysterious ways… good to see you have gotten Him all figured out.

Thank God that arrogance is not a deadly sin!
 
chicago said:
There’s also a great line in there about making sure not to be a partaker in the “observation of birds”. I’d like to know what that it all about, as it is included with things like soothsaying and other practices which we might recognize as being bad…
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Since the dawn of history people have found that by observing the behavior of birds and other animals, certain types of useful information could be learned: fishermen could locate shoals of fish, hunters could find game, travelers could find water, some changes in the weather could be predicted, etc.

It actually worked very well, so well that sometimes superstitions grew up around these observations (if a bird should fly in a window of a house, someone in that house would die soon, etc.) and some people thought you could do fortune telling or magic by watching the behavior of birds and other animals. Thus Shakespare in Macbeth has his witches incanting:

"Thrice the brinded cat hath mew’d…
"Thrice and once the hedge-pig whined…
“Harpier cries “'Tis time, 'tis time.”…”

This may be what they were getting at by warning against partaking in “observation of birds”.
 
Leopard said:
Since the dawn of history people have found that by observing the behavior of birds and other animals, certain types of useful information could be learned: fishermen could locate shoals of fish, hunters could find game, travelers could find water, some changes in the weather could be predicted, etc.

It actually worked very well, so well that sometimes superstitions grew up around these observations (if a bird should fly in a window of a house, someone in that house would die soon, etc.) and some people thought you could do fortune telling or magic by watching the behavior of birds and other animals. Thus Shakespare in Macbeth has his witches incanting:

"Thrice the brinded cat hath mew’d…
"Thrice and once the hedge-pig whined…
“Harpier cries “'Tis time, 'tis time.”…”

This may be what they were getting at by warning against partaking in “observation of birds”.
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Thanks. This is what I supposed they had in mind. Though I’d still love to know, in particular, what is intended by that statement as I find it fascinating. Afterall, much of this stuff is not superstition but scientific observation.

And I had forgotten about the concept of something bad happenning if a bird flew in the window. That one is great. And true, BTW. At least as far as I know from when a pigeon flew into my 5th grade class window and dropped a present in one girl’s face.
 
I had had no idea when posting the question.

Some said “hey, what a big deal” - but how this thread ending up with: 111 replies and 1,267 views in less than 24 hours is out of my mind. 😃

Now, I can finally stretch out my arms and rest on my desk reading the thread. 😛

be cool, people.
 
JimR-OCDS said:
I have not read through this entire thread, just the OP and the one with the picture of the man sitting in a pew with arms outstretched.

I would like to thank those who are appalled by this, for helping me to understand why so many Catholics choose to sit in the back of the Church. They don’t want to be criticised by sanctimonious Catholics who will make an issue out of every little thing that they might do wrong.

Once again thanks! :rolleyes:

Jim
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Maybe I can shed a little light on why some Catholics sit at the back of the Church. When I am on ambulance call, I sit at the back of the church, so as not to disrupt anyone if my pager goes off and I have to leave. (Yes, my pager is on mute). I have this arrangement worked out with the priest, so he knows why I am leaving.

Other times, if I will not be receiving Communion, I sit at the back of the Church, again, so as not to disrupt anyone who would otherwise have to climb over me.

So, you see, Jim, there are valid reasons to sit at the back of the Church. I have also noticed latecomers respectfully sitting at the back, so as not to disrupt a Mass in progress. If that makes us sanctimonious (we thought we were being considerate) then maybe, just maybe, you are being a little too judgmental.
 
Ok… I didn’t read through the entire thread, but aren’t there other things to be concerned about than how a person relaxes his/her arm on a pew? This is a first for me to hear someone complain about this. 🤷

I suppose if someone truly is offended by that, then perhaps it would be wise to seat oneself in the front pews so to avoid the temptation of annoying oneself by paying too much attention at how another sits in a pew. 😛
 
water said:
I had had no idea when posting the question.

Some said “hey, what a big deal” - but how this thread ending up with: 111 replies and 1,267 views in less than 24 hours is out of my mind. 😃

Now, I can finally stretch out my arms and rest on my desk reading the thread. 😛

be cool, people.
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But God is everywhere! Do you really think you should stretch out your arms?
 
thechrismyster said:
otherwise, well done list!

Comfort is evil. relaxation is bad. i agree, i think they should but metal studs in the pews to hurt our rear ends while we sit.so we can remember the pain and suffering we have in the valley of tears.
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:rotfl: Chris, what a great idea! I wonder why our parish council has never thought of that!
 
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