C
ConstantineTG
Guest
Not evil but the physical is inclined to the physical. Anyway, I’m just bringing up the different views. I may have explained it a bit wrong, I’m also just learning the different views of The Fall.
- Status
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
The judge is Chirst, not me. He will know if your state has a possiblity of salvation or not.
T
tonyrey
Guest
The one indisputable fact is that we are all victims of our ancestors’ transgressions.
S
Spock
Guest
And that kind of “faith” is what I do not have. Presumably God did not endow me with it. I see no difference between that kind of faith you mention and simple wishful thinking. See Hebrews 11:1 “Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.”
F
fide
Guest
I realize we are getting away from the OP, but because this is so important, I’m glad for it. As a former agnostic-atheist, I relate personally to your conclusions and rejections of faith - I once concluded and rejected it all too.
The passage from Hebrews that you quote is exactly right, of course - it is true, in the deepest sense of the word. I think your interpretation is not really to the heart of it, but the verse is very important. The Greek word you’ve translated “confidence” here - “faith is confidence in what we hope for…”, the Greek word hypostasis, literally means “substance,” “being” (as translated in Hebrews 1:3), or “reality” (as translated in Hebrews 3:14):
In Heb 1:3, Jesus is the very “nature” (hypostasis - the substance, the being) of God!
In Heb 3:14, “We have become partners of Christ if only we hold the beginning of the reality (hypostasis) firm until the end,” (NAB)
Faith, in other words, is substantial. It is a supernatural “substance” - it has “reality”. Faith is far more and other than mere “thinking”, wishful or not. A thought is like a breeze of the wind; it is felt for a moment and is gone. Faith is a substantial, supernatural reality that gives us “confidence”, true: strong confidence. Confidence so strong that a man would live by it! So strong he would die to remain true to it.
The rest of the 11:1 verse that you quote, faith is “the assurance about what we do not see.” The Greek word translated “assurance” here, elenchos, is usually translated “evidence” or “proof” - that which confirms what we believe to be true. Faith is the interior supernatural reality in the soul that confirms - proves - what is unseen and unseeable by the natural eyes, that we believe to be true about God.
Faith, then, is something of substance, and with it comes a way of seeing beyond physical vision - of another order than the natural, material and temporal. And it is most probably true that God has not yet “endowed” you with this gift. It is a gift! It is not a mere conclusion or deduction. It is an insight into the core and essence of things (a seeing in a sense, of God) that confirms - that “proves” - the real hope in us for light, for life, for truth.
I hope you will never lose the hope in you for truth! It is good to disdain mere “wishing” - but hope is far different and deeper than wishing. God placed in us hope, to move us toward Himself - toward the God who made us, and who ever calls us into blessed communion with Him in Jesus Christ.
J
JackQ
Guest
I haven’t read through the whole thread, so I hope I’m not just repeating a point that has already been made.
The idea of hell as you’ve described it doesn’t make any sense at all. But your description involves a fundamental misunderstanding. It is common for people to think of hell in the same way as they think of the penal system. A just sentence in human courts are sentences that fit the crime. Unjust sentences are those that don’t. In human penal systems, punishments are not part of the crime. In other words, if someone is sent to prison for armed robbery, we don’t think of the sentence as being an intrinsic part of the armed robbery, rather it is society’s response to the criminal action. So separate is the sentence from the criminal action that people often commit crimes and receive no punishment at all.
The situation is completely different with sin and hell. Hell is an intrinsic part of sin; sin is it’s own punishment. Now some might argue that, for many, sin is enjoyable, and if sin is its own punishment, then hell is enjoyable. But in the context of eternity that simply isn’t possible, because sin spreads in the soul like leprosy on skin. I think it was C.S. Lewis who used the example of a sin as minor as grumbling. A person engaging in that vice could, in eternity, become nothing but a grumble.
J
JackQ
Guest
Faith is a faculty. It is a means (the means) of perceiving the things of God. If you feel you don’t have faith, you can ask God to give it to you, and he will. But what might be holding you back is the desire to not be conned, to not be taken in. If so, then ask yourself if you would trust God to reveal the truth about himself to you if you asked him. You can consider this question even if you don’t believe in God. From there you can take the obvious next step: you can ask God, if he is there, to show you the truth about himself.
T
The_Exodus
Guest
“No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him…” John 6:44.
You are absolutely correct Spock. If God has not drawn you, you cannot come to him.
Then again, as Pascal said, “you would not be seeking me if you had not found me…” and consequently, “if I had found you.”
And again, “Behold, I stand at the door and knock.” Revelation 3:20
Makes me wonder why you linger around here Spock. Maybe, just maybe, the whole Christianity thing is true? It sounds too good, I know, but…?
B
Betterave
Guest
“fill ourselves with grace” sounded rather Pelagian to me…
S
Spock
Guest
I did before, and nothing happened. There was a time when I was a believer, and asked. Read this tongue-in-cheek article from The Onion: God answers prayers of paralyzed little boy
S
Spock
Guest
It would be nice if there were a truly good and benevolent God. I would be tickled pink if there were one. But the God of Christianity simply does fit the bill. Too bad, so sad.
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
Sometimes I wonder why forum posts are being analyzed at the level of scripture.
My intention to say there was once baptized, we can be filled with grace again, not by us but by God.
B
Betterave
Guest
If what you said was Pelagian, it was wrong, from a Catholic perspective. That’s the issue. Don’t try to make irrelevant excuses. We don’t have a duty to speak the truth only when we are analyzing scripture!
J
JackQ
Guest
Yeah, I get that. So did the writer of Job. My wife and I have adopted three special needs children, one of them with underdeveloped arms, and, needless to say, I pray for them daily.
Catholicism wouldn’t make any sense if this life was all there was. As St. Paul put it, if it is for this life only that we have hoped in Christ, then we are the most miserable of all people. But, thankfully, this life is only the front porch of a vast temple that is eternity. Right now, we are the seeds of plants to come.
My little girl with the underdeveloped arms (she has TARS syndrome) is a person with a genuine love for humanity who lights up every room she enters. She has a faith in God that is as natural to her as breathing. It is a privilege to be her father, and I thank God that he has permitted me to know such a person as her.
For a long time after she had an operation on her arm to straighten out her hand, she had to put a brace on her arm before going to bed. While this was going on, a tumor grew on my hand. It was initially diagnosed as malignant, and, to make a long story short, I wound up having three operations on it. After the second operation, the tumor was tested again, and found to be benign. The interpretation of this event broke into two camps: the miraculous healing camp, and the initial misdiagnosis camp. I said miracle. But I had to wear bandages and a splint on my hand for a time. Some miracle, huh?
Well, I learned what kind of miracle it was one night when I was putting my little girl to bed and helping her with her brace. After helping her with her brace, it became necessary to to adjust the accoutrements on my hand. My little girl asked me if I had to adjust my brace. Let me tell you something, Spock, I wouldn’t trade that moment of fellowship with my daughter for all the money in the world.
Needless to say, I had the same question you doubtlessly have: why can’t God heal my little girl? I’ve already told you about the kind of person she is.
The story of the man born blind in the Gospel of John came to my mind. In that story Jesus and the disciples come upon the man, and the disciples ask Jesus, “Who sinned, this man or his parents, so that this man was born blind?” Jesus responded, “It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents, but that the works of God might be made manifest in him.”
The works of God are certainly made manifest in my little girl, in ways I never saw, or knew of, before. But in the story the man born blind was healed, wasn’t he? So, what’s the point of the story, that Jesus is selective about who he heals? No, the point of the story is that we can’t see the future. We can only judge things based on our knowledge of the present and past. Up to the point the blind man was healed, his suffering would have appeared as senseless any other suffering. After all, he was born blind, what could he have done to deserve it? But after he was healed, he became a witness, and, hence, an agent of redemption for others.
Keep asking God to reveal himself to you.
T
The_Exodus
Guest
Freudian slip?
J
jtodisco
Guest
Here’s a brief, yet insightful video commentary by Father Robert Barron on the belief in hell and how it ties directly to the beliefs that God is love and that we have free will. I hope it is helpful to anyone who has trouble with the notion of hell.
wordonfire.org/WOF-TV/Commentaries-New/Fr–Barron-comments-on-Hell.aspx
wordonfire.org/WOF-TV/Commentaries-New/Fr–Barron-comments-on-Hell.aspx
C
cargau
Guest
You are looking at the letter rather than the spirit of the law. Bear in mind, we are made in God’s image. God is love and thus we are to mirror that image.
In the Old Testament, the 2 great recurring sins that ultimately led to exile were idolatry and social injustice… Jesus deals with these sins when He gave us the commandment of love…Love God and love neighbor.
I had a co-worker once who had this incredibly irritating habit of whistling…nothing in particular, just whisling. He knew it bothered me (and everyone else) but he just kept on whistling. Sin can be like that for God. The church lays out those actions that are really irritating to God and tells us that we are to avoid them… If we continue acting in this manner we offend God and do harm to our relationship with Him. In a word, we refuse to love Him.
The fact is, no one can say committing one sin or another damns you to eternal fire. That is God’s purview, not ours. All the Church says is that committing a certain sin puts our soul in* jeopardy *of separating ourselves from the love of God.
As for your relatives, friends and neighbors…the fact that they are committing sins does not mean that they are not sinning and irritating God. As much as you don’t want the church to dictate behavior, you are being arrogant by presuming to dictate that certain behaviors should not be a part of God’s justice…
Now, why would you do that???
If the Church was instituted by Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit, maybe, just maybe she has the wisdom and theological insight to aid believers to sainthood.
S
Spock
Guest
No, just a stupid typo on my part.Freudian slip?
Thanks for pointing it out. Obviously the word “not” is missing from behind the word “does”.
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
I misspoke okay. Pardon that English is not my first language.
Its one thing to help correct someone, its another to accuse another of heresy.
B
Betterave
Guest
I pointed out an apparent error in your formulation and asked you about it, that is all. Please don’t make anything more than that out of what I said. Your English seems fine, I don’t buy that as an excuse for your inability to just admit that your words were ill-chosen. Doing so shouldn’t be a big deal, it shouldn’t be something you get defensive about - sorry, but that just does not seem to indicate a linguistic competence issue.
- Status