Having a problem believing in Hell

[Spock]

I don’t recall A & E seeing but talking with God. Maybe you can show me. This is what I remembered reading:

Exodus 33:
18 Moses said, “Then let me see your Glory.”
19 And He said, “I will make all my goodness pass before you and proclaim the name of Yahweh before you. For I am gracious to whom I want to be gracious and I am merciful to whom I want to be merciful.”
**20 Then Yahweh said, “You cannot see my face because man cannot see me and live.”**21 And he added, “See this place near me; you shall stand on the rock
22 and when my Glory passes I will put you in a hollow of the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by.
23 Then I will take away my hand and you shall see my back, but my face shall not be seen.”

If we want to go to the scripture, Adam and Eve were still face-to-face with God, even after the fall. Also Jesus is supposed to be God, and yet people could stay in his presence.

Sorry to hear no creed or belief system is available. Since you have taken so much time to read about our beliefs, I was really looking forward to learning what was important to you.

Well, it is very simple. I am an atheist, which means I do not believe in God. This is a purely negative stance. Nothing follows from it.

Now, I have a lot of positive beliefs. As I said, no one asked for them before, but since you do, I will try to make a synopsys. I believe that we are both individuals and social beings. These two sides must be balanced. I hold the Golden rule and the inverse Golden rule to be the best guidelines to lead our lives. I believe in love, goodwill, harmony. I believe in helping others, if I can - but only to the extent that it does not impose a too great burden on me. I think that both unlimited selfishness and unlimited selflessness are stupid and counterproductive. Politically I am a libertarian. I would prefer to be an anarchist, but again, looking at the other people, it would be untenable. Humans are simply not mature enough to be able to cope with unlimited freedom. Maybe they never will be. If you want to know specifics, just ask.

 

[crazzeto]

If we want to go to the scripture, Adam and Eve were still face-to-face with God, even after the fall. Also Jesus is supposed to be God, and yet people could stay in his presence.

Yes, Adam and Eve stood before the face of God and lived. Jesus, was another story however… He was true God, but also True man so the rules are a little different. Those who stood before the face of Jesus prior to the crusifixion would not have been able to stand before the true face of God in heaven because reconciliation had yet to happen.

Well, it is very simple. I am an atheist, which means I do not believe in God. This is a purely negative stance. Nothing follows from it.

Now, I have a lot of positive beliefs. As I said, no one asked for them before, but since you do, I will try to make a synopsys. I believe that we are both individuals and social beings. These two sides must be balanced. I hold the Golden rule and the inverse Golden rule to be the best guidelines to lead our lives. I believe in love, goodwill, harmony. I believe in helping others, if I can - but only to the extent that it does not impose a too great burden on me. I think that both unlimited selfishness and unlimited selflessness are stupid and counterproductive. Politically I am a libertarian. I would prefer to be an anarchist, but again, looking at the other people, it would be untenable. Humans are simply not mature enough to be able to cope with unlimited freedom. Maybe they never will be. If you want to know specifics, just ask.

These are all good things in them selves… But if you want to take it all to the next level, and make it all truely good you need God in your life. It’s a great, terrible, wonderful and amazing challenege to live for Christ. Give it a whirl =)

 

[JackQ]

No one bangs of the gates of hell, demanding admittance.

Well, yes. Actually they do.

 

[PAboy57]

people bang on the gates of hell everytime they break 1 of the 10 commandments. they slightly tap with other minor offenses.

God knew after the fall how we would end up. sent His Son. Established the Church and ways to get right with Himself.

He gave us immeasurable gifts in which we could use - Mass, Sacraments, Prayer, etc -
to get right. So many ignore and then will say – oh I didn’t realize you were serious.

He is Lord and Master and you have free will to choose. One thing is sure that when we die we will either end up in Heaven or hell.

Your belief doesn’t change the truth. To many old writings saying this is real. He gave us living now so much info so we could understand. the choice is up to each one of us.

 

[Spock]

people bang on the gates of hell everytime they break 1 of the 10 commandments. they slightly tap with other minor offenses.

I hope you speak figuratively, not literally.

Those 10 commandments and other minor offenses are just a human concotion. There is no evidence that they came from God.

 

[PAboy57]

I hope you speak figuratively, not literally.

Those 10 commandments and other minor offenses are just a human concotion. There is no evidence that they came from God.

We didn’t preserve all of those old Church documents for nothing. We should all read them. Let’s say it is good enough evidence for me. I didn’t have to read all of them to be convinced otherwise I would never get finished with the reading. That was a blessing.

I know you are still waiting for that personal visit. God bless and may He open your heart.

 

[vz71]

When I argue against God, I argue against what the believers say about God. If I would believe in God, then yes, I would argue against God. If God would grant my wish and would accept my invitation to my house, then I would argue with God.

Just how often do you ask God for this?

 

[Spock]

We didn’t preserve all of those old Church documents for nothing. We should all read them. Let’s say it is good enough evidence for me. I didn’t have to read all of them to be convinced otherwise I would never get finished with the reading. That was a blessing.

I understand you. Suffice it to say that it is not sufficient evidence for me. The principle of “one size fits all” is usually wrong.

I know you are still waiting for that personal visit. God bless and may He open your heart.

Well, my mind is open. Allegorically speaking so is my “heart”, though I personally don’t like this analogy. It is being repeated too frequently, and thus it started to wear thin after the one thousandth repetition.

 

[Spock]

Just how often do you ask God for this?

Does it “really” matter? God is not “forgetful”, and he should know that my humble request was honestly offered.

 

[crazzeto]

Does it “really” matter? God is not “forgetful”, and he should know that my humble request was honestly offered.

Humble request that he come to your home, in person so you can give him your list of grivences? Then what do you expect? For God to “make changes”? Perhaps homosexuality will be declared non-sinful all of the sudden? Perhaps God will stop “meddling in peoples private lives” by demanding certain sexaul moral standards?

Is that really all that humble?

 

[Spock]

Humble request that he come to your home, in person so you can give him your list of grivences? Then what do you expect? For God to “make changes”? Perhaps homosexuality will be declared non-sinful all of the sudden? Perhaps God will stop “meddling in peoples private lives” by demanding certain sexaul moral standards?

Is that really all that humble?

You are mistaken. All I would do is ask a few questions. First and foremost I would ask him, why does he tolerate that his followers spread so much nonsense about him (for example about homosexuality, forbidden sexual practices, or birth control, about hell, and purgatory, and… etc… etc… ). And I expect that he would have a huge laugh at your expense and wink at me. He would tell me, not to worry, eventually everyone will make it into heaven. Some sooner, some later, depending on how fast they can recognize all that BS being spread about him.

 

[vz71]

Does it “really” matter? God is not “forgetful”, and he should know that my humble request was honestly offered.

Humble request that he come to your home, in person so you can give him your list of grivences?
Is that really all that humble?

Actually, I doubt it to provide a list of grievences.
Spock has stated he simply wants the doubt removed. For the solid case for God to be provided.
I imagine the visit would center more along proving this individual is who they say they are.

My thought is slightly different here.
How can you know the request is sincere if you are not persistant with it.
I am not saying God might forget if he is not reminded.
But you may.

I would offer that this particular request to a deity you may or may not believe in as at the very least a liferaft in the very dangerous waters of atheism.
I implore you every day to remind yourself, and possibly the deity, that you are awaiting the evidence that will turn your heart.

 

[Spock]

How can you know the request is sincere if you are not persistant with it.

I really don’t much care if you doubt whether it is sincere or not. God would know, and that should be enough for you. It is enough for me.

I am not saying God might forget if he is not reminded.
But you may.

Since I did not say it, what is your point?

I implore you every day to remind yourself, and possibly the deity, that you are awaiting the evidence that will turn your heart.

A constant “nagging” might be counterproductive. God might get “annoyed” for being pestered over and over again. Besides, you seem to forget another tenet of the dogma: “25. God is absolutely immutable (de fide)” jloughnan.tripod.com/dogma.htm It does not matter if I ask for something or not. If it is God’s will he will visit me. If it is not God’s will, he won’t - no matter how many times I would try to ask him. You really should read the list of the dogmas.

 

[PAboy57]

I really don’t much care if you doubt whether it is sincere or not. God would know, and that should be enough for you. It is enough for me.

Since I did not say it, what is your point?

A constant “nagging” might be counterproductive. God might get “annoyed” for being pestered over and over again. Besides, you seem to forget another tenet of the dogma: “25. God is absolutely immutable (de fide)” jloughnan.tripod.com/dogma.htm It does not matter if I ask for something or not. If it is God’s will he will visit me. If it is not God’s will, he won’t - no matter how many times I would try to ask him. You really should read the list of the dogmas.

I am glad you are helping us understand dogma. I hadn’t seen that one by Fr. Loughnan and the way he identified each section. I had a plain Jane with line after numbered line. Thanks
Pretty soon you may be a chosen one.

Luke Chapter 18:
1 Jesus told them a parable to show them that they should pray continually and not lose heart.
2 He said, “In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor people.
3 In the same town was a widow who kept coming to him, saying: ‘Defend my rights against my opponent.’
4 For a time he refused, but finally he thought: 'Even though I neither fear God nor care about people,
5 this widow bothers me so much I will see that she gets justice; then she will stop coming and wearing me out.”
6 And Jesus explained, “Listen to what the evil judge says.
**7 Will God not do justice for his chosen ones who cry to him day and night even if he delays in answering them?
8 I tell you, he will speedily do them justice. **Yet, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?”

 

[vz71]

I am glad you are helping us understand dogma. I hadn’t seen that one by Fr. Loughnan and the way he identified each section. I had a plain Jane with line after numbered line. Thanks
Pretty soon you may be a chosen one.

Luke Chapter 18:
1 Jesus told them a parable to show them that they should pray continually and not lose heart.
2 He said, “In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor people.
3 In the same town was a widow who kept coming to him, saying: ‘Defend my rights against my opponent.’
4 For a time he refused, but finally he thought: 'Even though I neither fear God nor care about people,
5 this widow bothers me so much I will see that she gets justice; then she will stop coming and wearing me out.”
6 And Jesus explained, “Listen to what the evil judge says.
7 Will God not do justice for his chosen ones who cry to him day and night even if he delays in answering them?
**8 I tell you, he will speedily do them justice. **Yet, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?”

I agree, the list is handy…I just had the book they all came out of.
It is easier reading the list then reading the 200 pages, but there is some information and context missed for the brevity.

Thanks for the bible quote. I was thinking about it, but could not remember where it was.
I think our atheist friend has forgotten that it is the sum of all of it that we follow, not just one set or the other of some dogmatic list.

 

[crazzeto]

You are mistaken. All I would do is ask a few questions. First and foremost I would ask him, why does he tolerate that his followers spread so much nonsense about him (for example about homosexuality, forbidden sexual practices, or birth control, about hell, and purgatory, and… etc… etc… ). And I expect that he would have a huge laugh at your expense and wink at me. He would tell me, not to worry, eventually everyone will make it into heaven. Some sooner, some later, depending on how fast they can recognize all that BS being spread about him.

And what happens when God says you are wrong? What happens when he says you have the Old Covenant and the people Israel to turn to as an elder brother? What happens when God says his teachings are faithfully contained in scripture and tradition? What then? When God says it is time for you to repent, and change and make him, not you the center of your existance?

 

[Betterave]

I know, but very few people will admit it. I don’t think that there is anything wrong with it, as long as we are both aware of it. Thanks and best wishes.

with due respect to PAboy, there is no such thing as pure, blind faith. Faith is essentially related to seeking understanding, to seeing - if it is purely blind, it is not faith.

 

[Betterave]

You are mistaken. All I would do is ask a few questions. First and foremost I would ask him, why does he tolerate that his followers spread so much nonsense about him (for example about homosexuality, forbidden sexual practices, or birth control, about hell, and purgatory, and… etc… etc… ). And I expect that he would have a huge laugh at your expense and wink at me. He would tell me, not to worry, eventually everyone will make it into heaven. Some sooner, some later, depending on how fast they can recognize all that BS being spread about him.

And at some point I’m sure you would inform God about what an ‘open-minded’ guy you are.

 

[PAboy57]

with due respect to PAboy, there is no such thing as pure, blind faith. Faith is essentially related to seeking understanding, to seeing - if it is purely blind, it is not faith.

this is more like my line of thinking. agree pure blind is something else.

29 Jesus replied, “You believe because you see me, don’t you? Happy are those who have not seen and believe.”

 

[PAboy57]

I agree, the list is handy…I just had the book they all came out of.
It is easier reading the list then reading the 200 pages, but there is some information and context missed for the brevity.

Thanks for the bible quote. I was thinking about it, but could not remember where it was.
I think our atheist friend has forgotten that it is the sum of all of it that we follow, not just one set or the other of some dogmatic list.

You are welcome.

I think he will weaken over time. I remember all my denials until something sent me to looking for the truth. Thank God for all His mercy. I’m glad to be home because I finally figured out that hell was going to be my last address change unless I did things differently. Then fear turns to hope and love.