Having close friends that are homosexual

[SpiritMeadow]

I agree with Image of God on this one - yes it was. Genesis 19:4-7 is quite clear on what the people of Sodom wanted:

That there were other sins of Sodom and Gomorrah is surely true, and the people did cry out to the Lord. As Image of God says, we don’t have to claim that God destroyed the city for just one reason or the other, both played a role.

And remember that St. Paul specifically condemns homosexual relations in his letter to the Romans, as well. Some in this thread have suggested that we are throwing out Christ for Paul, but this is not true. On this day, the Feast of Sts. Peter & Paul, if have heard nothing else from the Church, we have heard that Paul so conformed His life to Christ that it was as if Paul no longer lived, but Christ instead.

Recall that the epistles are Sacred Scriptures and are, as such, inerrant.

You are most entitled to read it as you wish. I am relying on the interpretations I was made aware of by two Catholic theologians at my graduate school some years ago. Neither felt it actually dealt with homosexuality originally but was a later veil attached. That is in agreement with a number of other biblical scholars I have read. Of course there are others who agree with you. It is not a cut and dried thing to be sure, but I would argue that it is more about things other than homosexuality. It is a difficult story to be sure, given the wanton willingness to hand over one’s daughters for sexual exploitation. Hospitality, and power were I believe key components to the story.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Considering most of my questions and challenges have been outright ignored in this thread, and considering one of the strongest “you should go” posters was actively contributing to this thread at just past three in the morning last night, I don’t think that I’m jumping the gun to assume there are no takers on this?

Thomfra? Spiritmeadow?

Seriously, I think it would help put your position into perspective to see how you would respond to the scenarios.

ps. Leaving for a two day camping trip and won’t be back until Tuesday evening, so if someone directs a question or comment my way, I will try to respond as soon as possible when I return.

It’s really frightening the imagination you have, though one example is a take off of an artist oh my of more than 20 years ago at least.

One can make up any list of horrific scenarios and of course they mean absolutely nothing, since we are talking about this very specific set of circumstances. I would imagine many people would have varied answers, some would agreeable refuse all three. They have NOTHING to do with this issue. It’s but a smokes screen to try to get someone to bite and then call them outrageous. Your excessively loaded questions won’t be answered by me, and you might want to think about what allows you to dream up such ugly stories.

 

[rinnie]

Hmm, gay guy goes straight because best friend doesn’t show up to his wedding. This seems like a highly unlikely scenario to me.

It seems to me that there are two types of people on this forum. Those that live in the real world, and have a broad understanding of Christ’s message, and are able to apply this in life in a world where things are not always black and white. And there are those that seem to be bogged down in finding ways to highlight the wrongdoing of others with as many references as they can find. You have no doubt considered yourself a devout Catholic for many years. Perhaps it is time to put down the instruction manual and try putting what you have “learnt” into practice. Go out and do some good.

Live in the real world with the rest of us who are less perfect.

Make a gay friend. Try to understand what it is like to walk a mile in somebody elses shoes. You might just be surprised.

I have to disagree with you on this, yes none of us are perfect, and living the Catholic Faith is very difficult. But when a person is gay it is a choice. Just like any other sin, we choose to stick with our faith or we dont. But the bad thing is sometimes our choices drag alot of inocent people into these situations. I am sorry being gay isnt the choice acting out on it is the sin. Do you see what i mean. Just because we love someone we still can not give into their sin and say its okay God will understand. He said no. If it was our choice to Love and except sin, and it was okay with God than that would be fine. But the Church says no. God says no love the sinner hate the sin. not love the sinner ignore the sin. It would be easy to take the wrong way out and ignore it, but then to ignore it and let it go, and participate is the same as sinning oursleves. We must say no this is wrong. im sorry i love you but i disagree with your lifestyle.

 

[wanner47]

I’m not inclined to presume why Jesus chose not to speak of any particular issue. That is mere speculation. How do you pick and choose what OT laws to follow? Many here would claim that the NT obviates the old, although Jesus did not say this. But certainly we don’t follow a good many of the Levitical laws any more. He didn’t change the pork restrictions then by your analysis. As I said, I don’t think there is a basis for concluding that Jesus didn’t address issues he didn’t want changed. If that we so, we are indeed in trouble, for we have ignored a good many of them.

From here:

"One final argument that occasionally arises concerns the Mosaic law. Because there are many laws in the Old Testament (including prohibitions against homosexual activity), the argument goes, we must either embrace all of them or reject all of them. One may ask, for example, why homosexual activity is prohibited but eating pork is not. If we’re going to condemn homosexual activity, then we also shouldn’t be eating pork.

The problem with this line of thinking is that it misunderstands why the Church teaches what it does: It is not because Christians are bound by the law of Moses, which was binding only on the Israelites. The prohibition against homosexual activity is part of the natural law; the restriction on eating pork is not."

I think that Paul referenced it once and perhaps one other.NT writer mentioned it. Whether Paul got it right or not is of course not my decision to make. By your analysis Paul had no right to eliminate the need to abide by Jewish laws for non-Jews. Jesus never spoke to that issue either. Perhaps Paul got that wrong too. It proves nothing.

So you believe that the apostles started teaching error immediately after Jesus’ ascension?

Thanks for the references. I take it there is no scriptural reference or CCC or statement directly from any pope?

Did you not read what I said? Mr. Akin lists the appropriate references in his articles. I’m sorry but I don’t have the time to copy & paste them all for you.

Please excuse my ignorance. I still need clarification. Is your father a practicing Catholic? Your mother?

No, they are both cradle Lutherans. However, God’s laws about marriage apply to all Christians, not just Catholics.

I assume your father’s new wife doesn’t practice Catholicism?

No, but to my knowledge she has never formally defected from the Church.

I am getting the impression that these are all essentially non-Catholics? So aren’t they all non-sacramental? Perhaps I’m missing something. Marriage laws in the Church are complicated. I know what is expected of Catholics. I was unaware they are applied to those outside the faith.

Marriages between two baptized Christians are always presumed both valid and sacramental until proven otherwise. (Marriages between non-Christians, or between a Christian and a non-Christian, are considered valid but not sacramental.) It doesn’t matter if they’re Catholic or not; as I said above, God’s laws about marriage apply to all Christians.

 

[wanner47]

I won’t dignify that with an answer.

Ah, see where your logic brings you? If we are to deem homosexuality acceptable because it wasn’t specifically condemned by Jesus, then we must also deem incest and bestiality acceptable.

 

[MichaelMurphy]

To the people that have said things like (homosexual behavior is a) “Vomititous act.” I would ask you refrain from these hateful sentiments. My friend is no more a sinner than I. Both premarital and homosexual sex are mortal sins. Judge not lest ye be judged, pick the plank out of your own eye and all that.

I say what I mean and I do what I say. Homosexual behavior is vomit inducing. That’s fact, not hateful. It’s a deviant perversion. Love the homosexual, don’t love the behavior. I don’t confuse pity with love.

 

[omegabane]

I say what I mean and I do what I say. Homosexual behavior is vomit inducing. That’s fact, not hateful. It’s a deviant perversion. Love the homosexual, don’t love the behavior. I don’t confuse pity with love.
May I add that I have been accused several times in my life of being gay. Which I’m not.

You must mean that this is your personal experience, not fact. While I agree with you that homosexuality is a disordered sexuality, and while I do find homosexual acts perverse, I most certainly do not think that it is charitable to use names such as “vomit inducing,” even if it happens to be true for you.

I don’t think anyone is asking you to pity anyone else. The reasonable Catholic simply expects greater charity, that’s all.

Don’t get me wrong, I am not defending homosexual behavior in the least. It is wrong, it is sinful and it those who experience SSA have a very heavy cross to bear. But that does not excuse us from using charitable language.

 

[nannygirl]

Agreed. I don’t know what is going on with this thread. You should NOT attend that wedding. I know it’s hard, but with the grace of the Holy Spirit, you can do anything. I know you don’t want to hurt him, but it is better to hurt him for a little while than support his eternal suicide.

In the world today, love is associated with the acceptance and tolerance of mostly everything people do. You can still accept him and reject his lifestyle. This is true love. I can’t help but disagree with the many who said support him. Supporting someone in committing grave sin is a hateful act. Even I struggle with this, so you’re not alone. But you can’t confirm this marriage by attending…it’s not a marriage to begin with…

Thank you for your excellent response! It is never loving to help someone sin. If a loving neighbor hadn’t spoken up and pointed out my sin to me, who knows where I would have ended up. I am thankful for her guts every day.

 

[thomfra]

I say what I mean and I do what I say. Homosexual behavior is vomit inducing. That’s fact, not hateful. It’s a deviant perversion. Love the homosexual, don’t love the behavior. I don’t confuse pity with love.

…Vomit inducing? Now that is something!!! Do you vomit just thinking about it, or have you seen the behaviour in a film and started spontaneously to vomit? Good thing you don’t live in Sydney, or Amsterdam, or San Francisco for that matter! You’d have to stay at home just to keep your breakfast down.

 

[rinnie]

Here is the hard part, its easy to talk and condem this when you really dont know someone personally that is like that. Then it comes back to you, what do you do? do you run away, ignore it, make fun of it. Thats the problem. to be honest any answer is hard to do. If you love the person and hang out with them you are excepting it, if you stay away you are judgemental. The church does not want to shun them, but it also wont except the behavior. So we are taught to pray for them, and we do. But really according to the RCC how are we supposed to act, on one hand we are to love them, and not be disrespectful to them, but then we should not accept this behavior either, what really is the right answer? Im not being smart here i really dont know what to do. If you go out with them, then in a way you are fooling yourself, if you dont you feel guilty, Its just so hard, And it is a sin, but its not your sin, Does anyone really know the right answer. What is the worst thing here and i am sure 90% if everyone on this post will agree, the people that are burdened with this are the most loving sweet, people in the world. Its impossible to hate them, or even dislike them, and it hurts to bad to not accept them, because you love them so much. But yet as mean as this makes me sound it does make you sick to your stomach to think about what they do. Dear God is wish i knew the true answer. I have a niece and i love her with all my heart and soul, and you would to if you knew her. But i cant accept this lifestye so i stay way from her. I only let her come alone, thats how my family deals with it, we ignore it. Crying, screaming, preaching nothing worked. But we refuse to let it come in our house, Are we wrong? I pray for her every day and light candles, but this is her choice. And its like you force her to choose them or us. Its so unfair to everyone. It can rip apart a family, it did ours. any advice would be great.

 

[Other_Eric]

Here is the hard part, its easy to talk and condem this when you really dont know someone personally that is like that. Then it comes back to you, what do you do? do you run away, ignore it, make fun of it. Thats the problem. to be honest any answer is hard to do. If you love the person and hang out with them you are excepting it, if you stay away you are judgemental. The church does not want to shun them, but it also wont except the behavior. So we are taught to pray for them, and we do. But really according to the RCC how are we supposed to act, on one hand we are to love them, and not be disrespectful to them, but then we should not accept this behavior either, what really is the right answer? Im not being smart here i really dont know what to do. If you go out with them, then in a way you are fooling yourself, if you dont you feel guilty, Its just so hard, And it is a sin, but its not your sin, Does anyone really know the right answer. What is the worst thing here and i am sure 90% if everyone on this post will agree, the people that are burdened with this are the most loving sweet, people in the world. Its impossible to hate them, or even dislike them, and it hurts to bad to not accept them, because you love them so much. But yet as mean as this makes me sound it does make you sick to your stomach to think about what they do. Dear God is wish i knew the true answer. I have a niece and i love her with all my heart and soul, and you would to if you knew her. But i cant accept this lifestye so i stay way from her. I only let her come alone, thats how my family deals with it, we ignore it. Crying, screaming, preaching nothing worked. But we refuse to let it come in our house, Are we wrong? I pray for her every day and light candles, but this is her choice. And its like you force her to choose them or us. Its so unfair to everyone. It can rip apart a family, it did ours. any advice would be great.

If association with those who have same-sex attraction clouds your judgment to the point that you can no longer recognize the depravity or lack the courage to call evil for what it is, then you need to rid yourself of such “friends.” It is hard to imagine a more appropriate application of Christ’s command to cut off one’s own hand should it offend.

 

[MichaelMurphy]

…Vomit inducing? Now that is something!!! Do you vomit just thinking about it, or have you seen the behaviour in a film and started spontaneously to vomit? Good thing you don’t live in Sydney, or Amsterdam, or San Francisco for that matter! You’d have to stay at home just to keep your breakfast down.

Well I’ve developed a stronger stomach having lived in Brighton (Sussex) for a few years. Big gay community down that way. Every summer, there’s a ‘Gay Pride’ parade, and they take over the entire City & seafront. Here in London, we have Soho, where anything goes.
Talking of film, I watched a horror movie recently - ‘Brokeback Mountain’, you’ve probably seen it. Not one for the children.
As omegabane suggested, it’s my personal experience to projectile vomit at homosexual behavior, but that doesn’t mean it’s true for everyone else.

 

[rinnie]

If association with those who have same-sex attraction clouds your judgment to the point that you can no longer recognize the depravity or lack the courage to call evil for what it is, then you need to rid yourself of such “friends.” It is hard to imagine a more appropriate application of Christ’s command to cut off one’s own hand should it offend.

You dont understand its not my judgement that is clouded, this is just not a friend, this is a girl who i saw grow up. this is a family member. She is probally as close as a daughter to me as my own. My whole family suffers, we no longer have the family we had because of this. No one in my family accepts this, so some joke, some cry, some are sick, my Sister almost had a nervous breakdown over this. Believe me she knows how we feel, but how do you just hate someone you love because you hate what they do and how they live. And trust me it can happen to anyone, if it happened to my it could happen to any. We hardly even heard of this as kids. Its easy to judge, but my question is the Church says if you shut her out completely then you have no chance of bringing her back to the Church. But yet dont except it either, so what do you do in the mean time. To be honest its just better shes stays away. This may seem awful to you, but I though God taking my Brother at 39 was the worst thing that could happen to my family, but i think this is worse. At least he is with God.

 

[estesbob]

You dont understand its not my judgement that is clouded, this is just not a friend, this is a girl who i saw grow up. this is a family member. She is probally as close as a daughter to me as my own. My whole family suffers, we no longer have the family we had because of this. No one in my family accepts this, so some joke, some cry, some are sick, my Sister almost had a nervous breakdown over this. Believe me she knows how we feel, but how do you just hate someone you love because you hate what they do and how they live.

You dont hate them and you dont shut them out of your lives. You have made your feelings clear . You should do nothing to affirm her behavior but it is quite clear that the Church does not support “shunning”

 

[SirOscar]

Hello,

I have a close friend who has opened up to me about his homosexual relationship. I have told him that I do not support his choice, but that I still love him as a person and a friend. “Love the sinner, hate the sin”.

The problem arises since I have been asked to dine with him and his homosexual partner at their house. While looking through the forums, I have not found a solid answer as to whether it is appropriate or not appropriate for a Catholic to dine with a homosexual couple.

Clarity on this issue is greatly appreciated.
Thank you.

Fr. Vincent Serpa
Catholic Answers Apologist Join Date: May 4, 2004
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 2,268

Re: Should a Catholic dine with a homosexual couple?

---

Hi,

The Gospels have several examples of Jesus dining at the homes of sinners for which He was criticized. Having dinner with them does not of itself mean that you approve of their life style. It is only by having contact that you can have ANY positive influence on them. Besides, he is your friend and you love him in the Lord.

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

I thought this might help some.

I, like many, have gay family members. I have a brother & a nephew. I could not imagine shutting them out of my life, as I love them both dearly.

One is able to associate with a gay friend/family member without condoning their sinful behavior.

All of us sin!. Do you shut out of your life friends/family that use artificial birth control? One who is Pro-Choice? One who struggle with masturbation? No we, help them along in life, and we pray for them.

Why should a homosexual be any different. As Fr. Serpa stated, “It is only by having contact that you can have ANY positive influence on them. Besides, he is your friend and you love him in the Lord.”

Go in peace.

 

[Other_Eric]

You dont understand its not my judgement that is clouded, this is just not a friend, this is a girl who i saw grow up. this is a family member. She is probally as close as a daughter to me as my own. My whole family suffers, we no longer have the family we had because of this. No one in my family accepts this, so some joke, some cry, some are sick, my Sister almost had a nervous breakdown over this. Believe me she knows how we feel, but how do you just hate someone you love because you hate what they do and how they live. And trust me it can happen to anyone, if it happened to my it could happen to any. We hardly even heard of this as kids. Its easy to judge, but my question is the Church says if you shut her out completely then you have no chance of bringing her back to the Church. But yet dont except it either, so what do you do in the mean time. To be honest its just better shes stays away. This may seem awful to you, but I though God taking my Brother at 39 was the worst thing that could happen to my family, but i think this is worse. At least he is with God.

One mustn’t use one’s emotions as a substitute for rational action. Behaviors and the identities that people adopt for themselves demand a Christian response. By banishing this person from your presence based on her conduct, it is not hatred outside the set of Dr. Phil. By doing such you are perfecting your love for her by making manifest the extreme depravity she has allowed herself to succumb to.

 

[SirOscar]

One mustn’t use one’s emotions as a substitute for rational action. Behaviors and the identities that people adopt for themselves demand a Christian response. By banishing this person from your presence based on her conduct, it is not hatred outside the set of Dr. Phil. By doing such you are perfecting your love for her by making manifest the extreme depravity she has allowed herself to succumb to

I agree with you to a limited extent. However, when one does have family friends that are gay, we cannot shut them out of our lives. There are birthday parties, weddings, funerals, wedding anniversaries, or just getting together on a Sunday.

Gay couples are respectful of conduct that is becoming to a public function, just as heterosexual couples are. Most of the time, at least in my family, they behave better than heterosexual couples.
If a stranger came to one of our family gatherings, one would never suspect that my brother or nephew is gay based on their conduct.

Gay people are just that. They are human beings in need of companionship, longing to be loved and give love, just like the rest of the human race.

I cannot base my love & association with them solely on what they do in their bedroom.

Take care

 

[omegabane]

I agree with you to a limited extent. However, when one does have family friends that are gay, we cannot shut them out of our lives. There are birthday parties, weddings, funerals, wedding anniversaries, or just getting together on a Sunday.

Gay couples are respectful of conduct that is becoming to a public function, just as heterosexual couples are. Most of the time, at least in my family, they behave better than heterosexual couples.
If a stranger came to one of our family gatherings, one would never suspect that my brother or nephew is gay based on their conduct.

Gay people are just that. They are human beings in need of companionship, longing to be loved and give love, just like the rest of the human race.

I cannot base my love & association with them solely on what they do in their bedroom.

Take care

Remember, the OP is not asking about whether or not we should love homosexual individuals. The OP is asking whether or not it is morally acceptable to attend a homosexual marriage.

The Catholic Church teaches that we must love all men & women as children of God. But remember that it is also one of the spiritual works of mercy to admonish sinners. Christian charity actually requires that we do not support - explicitly or implicitly - grave behavior of others. To this end, the Catholic answer to the question of whether or not it is licit to attend a homosexual wedding is “NO.”

This does not mean that we should cut off homosexual individuals from our lives. Of course not - that would be very uncharitable. As Fr. Vincent Serpa said in “Ask an Apologist” (quoted earlier in this thread), Jesus himself spent time with sinners, and it is only by being with them that we can set an example for them. We must set the proper example, though. Being with them while they engage in specifically illicit acts is not the example we should set. There is a difference between dining with a homosexual and attending his/her wedding.

 

[estesbob]

Remember, the OP is not asking about whether or not we should love homosexual individuals. The OP is asking whether or not it is morally acceptable to attend a homosexual marriage.

.

Which of course they should not. They also should not attend their home or allow them to spend the night in your home as a “couple” espcially if their are children involved. In short you do nothing whatsoever that could take on the appearance of validating their behavior. This does not mean, however, that you should “shun” them

 

[Wollie]

Is it truly supporting the union if you go? Did Jesus support sinfulness when he went into the sinners’ homes? I think making your disapproval known is vital, but attending is not condoning, or is it?