Having second thoughts about Christianity

[PJM]

=Skeptic;1172787]I’m a former protestant Christian who turned into somebody with no religion (sometimes on the almost atheist side).

But God himself seems to be tracking me down, and that was okay. I accepted that he probably existed.

But lately, I’m wondering if Christianity couldn’t have been real. I was convinced it wasn’t because too many religions seemed to have the same God as Christianity. Jewish interpretation of the prophecies in the OT don’t match the ones in the NT.

Sorry to drop this on you, but does anybody have any arguments for why this stuff is real? Not wanting to argue. Just want to hear some answers.

*Your soul is important so I shall try.

The CC has a 2000 year history of Belief, Teaching and Tradition, and after all this time by a wide margin, we remain the largest Christian denomination in America and the World. This in not possibly coincidence.

So lets take a puzzle approach and see if over a bit of time we can build for you a foundation on which to further your search?

Point 1. If you exist, that which we choose to identify as our God must exist.

How so?

Every human person is gifted with a mind, an intellect, and a freewill [also a soul] which we’ll leave for later discussion.

Something can only be what it is
Something cannot be something it is not
Something can only share what it has
Something cannot share what it does not have

AGREED?

So quantify for me your freewill. It can be demonstrated to exist. Indeed your responding gives such evidence. You can’t because THESE ARE SPIRITUAL THINGS, which logically can only come from other SPIRITUAL THINGS.

We can inherit our bodies, our brain and the like being physical matter, but not these spiritual things.

AGREED?

So the term we choose to apply to this source of SPIRITUAL THINGS is our God.

Shall we go on?*

Love and prayers,

Pat
PJM

 

[randirhoades]

There’s basically no way to argue the reality of it all. It’s experiential. I didn’t believe until I started experiencing drastic changes of heart with no explanation. I was borderline atheist for a long time, then into Eastern religions, and ended up Catholic. I never in a million years would have imagined it turning out this way.
Suddenly you might find yourself feeling more open and receptive to what’s trying to work inside you. Before you know it you’re surrendering and there’s an unimaginable wave of relief and bliss from knowing you’ve been given the Truth. If you deny your own ideas and realize that you’re incapable of knowing much of anything without it being given to you from above (which isn’'t easy), true humility and meekness will start to develop within. If you cultivate these in yourself and pray that you will be instructed by the Holy Spirit, you will be. A secret prayer said from the heart contains so much power.
Hopefully you’re taking the first steps into what is the most important decision a human being can make.
The key is not mistaking the sometimes mundane exterior of the institutional church for the reality of what the true Church is. What you can perceive with your senses through the sacraments can be beautiful or sometimes feel routine, but they are merely outward representations of something completely unspeakable and beyond our comprehension. If you ever find yourself restless or bored…realize that’s your own fallen nature and the feeling will pass. When you let go of your notions of what you think reality is, and receive the Eucharist, you’ll come to realize you’re making actual physical contact with God. No other religion can give you that.

I read this and felt knocking on my heart. I opened the “door”, it walked in and there it will stay. I thought this was beautiful. Thank you for sharing your thoughts!

 

[StrawberryJam]

Skeptic,

Which would be most possible, and which would be most probable? Only you can know the answer to that.

 

[Bookcat]

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/urbi/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20090412_urbi-easter_en.html

From Pope Benedict XVI :

Indeed, one of the questions that most preoccupies men and women is this: what is there after death? To this mystery today’s solemnity allows us to respond that death does not have the last word, because Life will be victorious at the end. This certainty of ours is based not on simple human reasoning, but on a historical fact of faith: Jesus Christ, crucified and buried, is risen with his glorified body. Jesus is risen so that we too, believing in him, may have eternal life. This proclamation is at the heart of the Gospel message. As Saint Paul vigorously declares: “If Christ has not been raised, our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.” He goes on to say: “If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all men most to be pitied” (1 Cor 15:14,19). Ever since the dawn of Easter a new Spring of hope has filled the world; from that day forward our resurrection has begun, because Easter does not simply signal a moment in history, but the beginning of a new condition: Jesus is risen not because his memory remains alive in the hearts of his disciples, but because he himself lives in us, and in him we can already savour the joy of eternal life.

The resurrection, then, is not a theory, but a historical reality revealed by the man Jesus Christ by means of his “Passover”, his “passage”, that has opened a “new way” between heaven and earth (cf. Heb 10:20). It is neither a myth nor a dream, it is not a vision or a utopia, it is not a fairy tale, but it is a singular and unrepeatable event: Jesus of Nazareth, son of Mary, who at dusk on Friday was taken down from the Cross and buried, has victoriously left the tomb. In fact, at dawn on the first day after the Sabbath, Peter and John found the tomb empty. Mary Magdalene and the other women encountered the risen Jesus. On the way to Emmaus the two disciples recognized him at the breaking of the bread. The Risen One appeared to the Apostles that evening in the Upper Room and then to many other disciples in Galilee.

The proclamation of the Lord’s Resurrection lightens up the dark regions of the world in which we live. I am referring particularly to materialism and nihilism, to a vision of the world that is unable to move beyond what is scientifically verifiable, and retreats cheerlessly into a sense of emptiness which is thought to be the definitive destiny of human life. It is a fact that if Christ had not risen, the “emptiness” would be set to prevail. If we take away Christ and his resurrection, there is no escape for man, and every one of his hopes remains an illusion. Yet today is the day when the proclamation of the Lord’s resurrection vigorously bursts forth, and it is the answer to the recurring question of the sceptics, that we also find in the book of Ecclesiastes: “Is there a thing of which it is said, ‘See, this is new’?” (Ec 1:10). We answer, yes: on Easter morning, everything was renewed. “Death and life have come face to face in a tremendous duel: the Lord of life was dead, but now he lives triumphant” (Easter Sequence). This is what is new! A newness that changes the lives of those who accept it, as in the case of the saints. This, for example, is what happened to Saint Paul.

 

[allcingi]

I’m a former protestant Christian who turned into somebody with no religion (sometimes on the almost atheist side).

But God himself seems to be tracking me down, and that was okay. I accepted that he probably existed.

But lately, I’m wondering if Christianity couldn’t have been real. I was convinced it wasn’t because too many religions seemed to have the same God as Christianity. Jewish interpretation of the prophecies in the OT don’t match the ones in the NT.

But people have been praying for me to end up back in church and by my own desire (not anybody pushing me into it), I went to a mass last weekend. It’s like God answered them. Why would he do that? The skeptic in me has to find out. I’ve always thought Catholicism is probably deeper than other forms of Christianity, so I want to check into that again.

Sorry to drop this on you, but does anybody have any arguments for why this stuff is real? Not wanting to argue. Just want to hear some answers.

Parts of it are real. It’s mostly an allegory. “Christianity” has existed in many ancient civilizations, it just went by different names. Modern Christianity started out as being the religion OF Jesus. Jesus comprehended and revealed the path of theosis. However, the history was corrupted in the latter 3rd century and turned into a religion ABOUT Jesus. If you are really interested in the Truth, then modern day Christianity is going to give you a necessary but watered down version of the Truth. Jesus did say not to throw your pearls to the swine because they would trample them. The masses of people are the swine. The masses recieve an exoteric version of the Truth that relieves much of the pain that society inflicts. Only those that seek with every ounce of mind, body, and soul get a glimpse of what they are looking for, and there are lots of systems in place to make the search as painfull as possible. It always has been and it always will be. Jesus is not the first person believed to have been crucified and raised from the dead. Check out Horus, Dionysus, and Krishna.

 

[Bob4BVM]

There’s basically no way to argue the reality of it all. It’s experiential. I didn’t believe until I started experiencing drastic changes of heart with no explanation. I was borderline atheist for a long time, then into Eastern religions, and ended up Catholic. I never in a million years would have imagined it turning out this way.
Suddenly you might find yourself feeling more open and receptive to what’s trying to work inside you. Before you know it you’re surrendering and there’s an unimaginable wave of relief and bliss from knowing you’ve been given the Truth. If you deny your own ideas and realize that you’re incapable of knowing much of anything without it being given to you from above (which isn’'t easy), true humility and meekness will start to develop within. If you cultivate these in yourself and pray that you will be instructed by the Holy Spirit, you will be. A secret prayer said from the heart contains so much power.
Hopefully you’re taking the first steps into what is the most important decision a human being can make.
The key is not mistaking the sometimes mundane exterior of the institutional church for the reality of what the true Church is. What you can perceive with your senses through the sacraments can be beautiful or sometimes feel routine, but they are merely outward representations of something completely unspeakable and beyond our comprehension. If you ever find yourself restless or bored…realize that’s your own fallen nature and the feeling will pass. When you let go of your notions of what you think reality is, and receive the Eucharist, you’ll come to realize you’re making actual physical contact with God. No other religion can give you that.

Thanks kevb,
If I am reading you right, you are speaking from experience.
“Experiential” is the perfect word for it.
The sad part is that it is only knowable thru personal experience, and unless we let go and truly come to God as a little child, it probably won’t happen.

SO yeah, the ‘unimaginable wave of relief and bliss from knowing…’ is real, incredibly real.
My greatest prayer is that more of us will let go, and JUST ASK !

 

[grace_singh]

hey, friend. it basically all comes down to Christ. who He was and is, if He is who He claimed to be in the Gospels, and if the Gospels are truly reliable in what they record.

i suggest the book “The Case for Christ” by Lee Strobel. it hits all those points, from the most basic, to the more complex and controversial.

we do certainly know that a Jewish Man named Jesus (Yeshua) truly did live and teach and heal in 1 st Century Palestine, that His followers considered Him to be the Messiah and Son of God, that He was crucified under Pilate, and that His disciples claimed that He had risen from the dead, and appeared to them.

we have many documents from the earliest days of the Christian faith documenting who these people were, where they lived, traveled, what they wrote, and what they believed.

so we actually know a lot about Christ. Christianity needs to spring from a personal conviction and trusting faith in Jesus Christ as who He claims to be in the Gospels. it’s actually about believing in, belonging to, and living for Him.

I’m a former protestant Christian who turned into somebody with no religion (sometimes on the almost atheist side).

But God himself seems to be tracking me down, and that was okay. I accepted that he probably existed.

But lately, I’m wondering if Christianity couldn’t have been real. I was convinced it wasn’t because too many religions seemed to have the same God as Christianity. Jewish interpretation of the prophecies in the OT don’t match the ones in the NT.

But people have been praying for me to end up back in church and by my own desire (not anybody pushing me into it), I went to a mass last weekend. It’s like God answered them. Why would he do that? The skeptic in me has to find out. I’ve always thought Catholicism is probably deeper than other forms of Christianity, so I want to check into that again.

Sorry to drop this on you, but does anybody have any arguments for why this stuff is real? Not wanting to argue. Just want to hear some answers.

 

[Bob4BVM]

Parts of it are real. It’s mostly an allegory. “Christianity” has existed in many ancient civilizations, it just went by different names. Modern Christianity started out as being the religion OF Jesus. Jesus comprehended and revealed the path of theosis. However, the history was corrupted in the latter 3rd century and turned into a religion ABOUT Jesus. If you are really interested in the Truth, then modern day Christianity is going to give you a necessary but watered down version of the Truth. Jesus did say not to throw your pearls to the swine because they would trample them. The masses of people are the swine. The masses recieve an exoteric version of the Truth that relieves much of the pain that society inflicts. Only those that seek with every ounce of mind, body, and soul get a glimpse of what they are looking for, and there are lots of systems in place to make the search as painfull as possible. It always has been and it always will be. Jesus is not the first person believed to have been crucified and raised from the dead. Check out Horus, Dionysus, and Krishna.

Oh brother !
allcingi, if it isn’t real, you have some tall explaining-away to do for me.
Before you get done convincing yourself of all that rubbish, you might try asking God if He is there.
Then sit down, shut up, and listen for His reply.
Hint- while for some of us it has come as a 2x4 on the head, it may also come as just a whisper, so listen, from the heart.
If you make the earnest effort to do this, He will not disappoint you.

My story is all about how “small of an honest effort” it took on my part.
From there it’s a landslide of His Grace. Incredible.
The part that athiests never answer is the witness of the personal conversion experience. They seem to run like hell from that.
Saddest thing, it’s waiting for them too.

But God isn’t kicking any doors down.
The latch is on our side of the door.
Only.

 

[alforo]

I’m a former protestant Christian who turned into somebody with no religion (sometimes on the almost atheist side).

But God himself seems to be tracking me down, and that was okay. I accepted that he probably existed.

But lately, I’m wondering if Christianity couldn’t have been real. I was convinced it wasn’t because too many religions seemed to have the same God as Christianity. Jewish interpretation of the prophecies in the OT don’t match the ones in the NT.

But people have been praying for me to end up back in church and by my own desire (not anybody pushing me into it), I went to a mass last weekend. It’s like God answered them. Why would he do that? The skeptic in me has to find out. I’ve always thought Catholicism is probably deeper than other forms of Christianity, so I want to check into that again.

Sorry to drop this on you, but does anybody have any arguments for why this stuff is real? Not wanting to argue. Just want to hear some answers.

You may also wish to check out ‘The Journey Home’ telecast weekly on the EWTN station. Interesting that most of the converts come from other religions and many of them are former ministers to boot.

 

[Major_Tom]

All of the Martyrs! Why would all of these people give up their lives for something they did not find to be true? All they had to do was to denounce it, but they chose death.

Personally, that argument never held much sway with me, as lots of -ism’s (Islam, communism, etc.) have had many true believers willing to die for the cause.

 

[grndslm]

All of the Martyrs! Why would all of these people give up their lives for something they did not find to be true? All they had to do was to denounce it, but they chose death.

What were their names? Did any of them have names? Did any of them write down what they’d seen? If TENS OF THOUSANDS of people are dying for something that only FIVE HUNDRED men actually saw… what does that say about the “gullibility” of your average man from this time period?? If multiple “communities” of Christians are building up after the death of Jesus… and they all form their own opinions of Christ Jesus and create HUNDREDS (if not thousands) of biblical narratives… perhaps they just needed something more themselves from life? What if men were so bored with their spiritual belief stystem that they created this from past religions?

Parts of it are real. It’s mostly an allegory. “Christianity” has existed in many ancient civilizations, it just went by different names. Modern Christianity started out as being the religion OF Jesus. Jesus comprehended and revealed the path of theosis. However, the history was corrupted in the latter 3rd century and turned into a religion ABOUT Jesus. If you are really interested in the Truth, then modern day Christianity is going to give you a necessary but watered down version of the Truth. Jesus did say not to throw your pearls to the swine because they would trample them. The masses of people are the swine. The masses recieve an exoteric version of the Truth that relieves much of the pain that society inflicts. Only those that seek with every ounce of mind, body, and soul get a glimpse of what they are looking for, and there are lots of systems in place to make the search as painfull as possible. It always has been and it always will be. Jesus is not the first person believed to have been crucified and raised from the dead. Check out Horus, Dionysus, and Krishna.

I think I’m with you. I see the story of Christ Jesus far more beatiful than the actual life of Jesus Christ who ate, breathed, slept, drank wine, and defecated. I’m not sure if the existence of that Jesus should matter at all, but I like the Christ Jesus… I do.

I’m also not sure if Horus actually existed or if that was a hoax. Krishna is very real, however. Key similarities between the two is kinda strange, no?

A religion OF Jesus is the exact way I see it. James, his possible brother, had his own opinion. It seems like many, many, many people that were close to him were just inspired in a billion different ways. Paul had his own opinion. Mark has his own non-Christological view. Supposedly Matthew has his own version of what Matt had heard. Luke has his own slightly different version. They get many things wrong about the “prophecies”, like Jesus coming during the kingdom of Israel, being of the seed of David, and tracing his roots back to JOSEPH (not Mary )!! Luke claims that Jesus is Mary’s FIRSTBORN son. There is even specific mention of Mary and Joseph as Jesus’ parents, along with his BROTHERS AND SISTERS. The Catholic Church is just plain ignorant if they are going to pull this “perpetual virginity” stuff outta their Azz’s like that. I’d say the Catholic Church has become a pretty evolved religion, but the perpetal virginity thing is just silly.

That’s some powerful inspiration from one man, but if the background story were made up (virgin birth, works at 13, later returns at 30 with 12 disciples, performing miracles, dies, ascends into heaven, etc.)… and there are no real “secular” documents of martyrs who actually saw something worth dying for, nor have I come across any actual documents that proves Yeshua even existed. If these documents existed, then I don’t think there’d be anything holding Catholicism back. There are four often noted secular historians, and one of them who actually names Christ as JESUS, Josephus’ works have been believed to have been forged for A LONG time. So really… all the secular historians never mention a Jesus, Jeshua, Yeshua, etc. That’s pretty odd to me if I saw TENS OF THOUSANDS of men dying for someone the believed to have been the annointed one, and he actually had a name that they chanted.

That’s a big problem. If sacred tradition were that sacred, wouldn’t the Catholic Church at least use the right name of the guy? And if his name doesn’t matter… isn’t my belief about the divine Christ Jesus actually correct to be thought about more often than Jesus Christ, the sleeping and defacating creature of our Creator?? But really… I think that you guys are on to something for a minute, and then I talk myself out of it.

I can assure you that if I ever unlock the keys to understanding Christ Jesus was ACTUALLY a man and ACTUALLY rose from the dead, I will let the whole world know overnight.

 

[grndslm]

hey, friend. it basically all comes down to Christ. who He was and is, if He is who He claimed to be in the Gospels, and if the Gospels are truly reliable in what they record.

He actually dodged EVERY question presented to him when asking “who He was and is, if He is who He claimed to be”, etc.

My personal favorite is Mark 10:17-18

17
As he was setting out on a journey, a man ran up, knelt down before him, and asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
18
Jesus answered him, "Why do you call me good? 3 No one is good but God alone.

How 'bout the one where he says… “Is it not written in your laws, ‘I say, “Ye are gods.”’” in response to being called the “son of God”. Jesus basically dodges the question, points to old testament scripture, and then says… EACH of US are children of God.

He was just incredibly witty, and I believe misunderstood. A ton of inspiration, tho… apparently. I just wish people who claim things like this…

we do certainly know that a Jewish Man named Jesus (Yeshua) truly did live and teach and heal in 1 st Century Palestine, that His followers considered Him to be the Messiah and Son of God, that He was crucified under Pilate, and that His disciples claimed that He had risen from the dead, and appeared to them.

we have many documents from the earliest days of the Christian faith documenting who these people were, where they lived, traveled, what they wrote, and what they believed.

… could elaborate a bit more.

Where is all this information that you have gathered on the historical Jesus??

Where are all these documents discussing Yeshua and his homeboys, and his probable brothers, like James?

so we actually know a lot about Christ. Christianity needs to spring from a personal conviction and trusting faith in Jesus Christ as who He claims to be in the Gospels. it’s actually about believing in, belonging to, and living for Him.

I never see him claim to be who you think he claims to be.

Personally, that argument never held much sway with me, as lots of -ism’s (Islam, communism, etc.) have had many true believers willing to die for the cause.

Exactly. Martyrs in Christianity, who actually saw the Resurrected Jesus… seem to be a rumor, myth.

Could you people elaborate on these martyrs, however?? I see them mentioned a lot, but I don’t see their names. I don’t see time periods that each of them died. I just see a big generic statement that can be applied to the crazies of any religion. Back it up with facts, please.

 

[alforo]

What were their names? Did any of them have names?

Yes. Some of them are St. Satyrninus, St. Bibian, St. Lucy, St. Eusebius, St. Hyginus, St. Marcellus 1, St. Marius, St. Martha, St. Audifax, St. Abacham, etc., etc., etc. This is commn knowledge. But perhas I misunderstood your question. What, specifically, did you mean?

 

[grndslm]

“Martyrs in Christianity that actually saw the Resurrected Christ.”

Martyrs in general are no different than Islamic terrorists, IMHO. Martyrs who claim to have seen the Resurrected Christ are the ones I’m after. Only two I can think of is Peter and Paul…

 

[PJM]

[QUOT]E=grndslm;6248702]What were their names? Did any of them have names? Did any of them write down what they’d seen? If TENS OF THOUSANDS of people are dying for something that only FIVE HUNDRED men actually saw… what does that say about the “gullibility” of your average man from this time period?? If multiple “communities” of Christians are building up after the death of Jesus… and they all form their own opinions of Christ Jesus and create HUNDREDS (if not thousands) of biblical narratives… perhaps they just needed something more themselves from life? What if men were so bored with their spiritual belief stystem that they created this from past religions?

Before I suppy the names, a point on the previous, which I found to be quite thoughtful.

The “ism’s” communism. and Islamics had very serious consequences in denying them. Very likey PHYSICAL death. Catholism and Christinaty too has serious consequences BOT AFTER one has died.

*As to the names *“GOOGLE” “Catholic Saints,” your find a great deal to think about.

I think I’m with you. I see the story of Christ Jesus far more beatiful than the actual life of Jesus Christ who ate, breathed, slept, drank wine, and defecated. I’m not sure if the existence of that Jesus should matter at all, but I like the Christ Jesus… I do.

*Friend, its oh so much more than a story. TONS of historical evidence including our dating system. BC =Before Chrsit, AD = After Death. And all of those eyewitnes accounts.

You mention 500 witness; that was at a single time. Thousands saw him over the 40 days.*

I’m also not sure if Horus actually existed or if that was a hoax. Krishna is very real, however. Key similarities between the two is kinda strange, no?

A religion OF Jesus is the exact way I see it. James, his possible brother, had his own opinion. It seems like many, many, many people that were close to him were just inspired in a billion different ways. Paul had his own opinion. Mark has his own non-Christological view. Supposedly Matthew has his own version of what Matt had heard. Luke has his own slightly different version. They get many things wrong about the “prophecies”, like Jesus coming during the kingdom of Israel, being of the seed of David, and tracing his roots back to JOSEPH (not Mary )!! Luke claims that Jesus is Mary’s FIRSTBORN son. There is even specific mention of Mary and Joseph as Jesus’ parents, along with his BROTHERS AND SISTERS. The Catholic Church is just plain ignorant if they are going to pull this “perpetual virginity” stuff outta their Azz’s like that. I’d say the Catholic Church has become a pretty evolved religion, but the perpetal virginity thing is just silly.

That’s some powerful inspiration from one man, but if the background story were made up (virgin birth, works at 13, later returns at 30 with 12 disciples, performing miracles, dies, ascends into heaven, etc.)… and there are no real “secular” documents of martyrs who actually saw something worth dying for, nor have I come across any actual documents that proves Yeshua even existed. If these documents existed, then I don’t think there’d be anything holding Catholicism back. There are four often noted secular historians, and one of them who actually names Christ as JESUS, Josephus’ works have been believed to have been forged for A LONG time. So really… all the secular historians never mention a Jesus, Jeshua, Yeshua, etc. That’s pretty odd to me if I saw TENS OF THOUSANDS of men dying for someone the believed to have been the annointed one, and he actually had a name that they chanted.

That’s a big problem. If sacred tradition were that sacred, wouldn’t the Catholic Church at least use the right name of the guy? And if his name doesn’t matter… isn’t my belief about the divine Christ Jesus actually correct to be thought about more often than Jesus Christ, the sleeping and defacating creature of our Creator?? But really… I think that you guys are on to something for a minute, and then I talk myself out of it.

I can assure you that if I ever unlock the keys to understanding Christ Jesus was ACTUALLY a man and ACTUALLY rose from the dead, I will let the whole world know overnight.
*
Sorry being called to supper.*

Love and prayers,

 

[Bob4BVM]

Personally, that argument never held much sway with me, as lots of -ism’s (Islam, communism, etc.) have had many true believers willing to die for the cause.

AHHHHH, now there is a difference between Christianity and all other religions we can discuss !
Everyone here wants names of martyrs. Lets start with the guys who were closest to Christ…
The Apostles died for their beliefs .

So what , you say ???
Lots of people of many faiths have died for what they’ve believed .
You and I might even die for what we believe.
However. There is a critical difference with the Apostles: …They lived with and knew Christ. They did not die for what they simply believed to be true Unlike you and me, they were in the unique position to know for sure whether their claim of a resurrected Christ was the truth. Yet here is a group of 11 sane men who endured harsh lives and great suffering for the sake of spreading the most incredible story in recorded history. How sure were they of their facts ? They all went to their graves enduring horrible tortures, each proclaiming to the death, that Jesus Christ had risen from the grave, and was God Incarnate. All of them. That’s how sure they were.

Yes, history has seen many martyrs in many different religions.
What history has not seen, is people willing to die for what they know is a lie.
Remember, unlike us, or people of any other faith, the Apostles were in a position to know for certain that what they professed, to the death, was the truth.

Can you imagine yourself, or anyone you have ever known, willingly suffering a torturous death for the sake of proclaiming something you know to be a hoax ? Remember, these guys knew !

 

[grndslm]

What were their names? Did any of them have names?

Like I said… “Martyrs in Christianity that actually saw the Resurrected Jesus”. There’s two requirements to fulfill… (1) saw the Resurrected Jesus, which means these people would need to have lived and died during the First Century, and (2) died for their belief that Jesus was Christ.

From your list… St. Martha is the only one of those from the First Century, and she actually met Jesus [allegedly].

The “ism’s” communism. and Islamics had very serious consequences in denying them. Very likey PHYSICAL death. Catholism and Christinaty too has serious consequences BOT AFTER one has died.

I don’t really understand what this came from. The “ism’s” had very serious consequences in denying what?

*As to the names *“GOOGLE” “Catholic Saints,” your find a great deal to think about.

Personally, I’m restricting my focus to First Century works and people alone. I feel like the majority of Catholicism didn’t really gain any history until the Fourth Century!! That’s too far from the source, for a skeptic (like myself) to take seriously in determining the authenticity of certain issues/topics.

*Friend, its oh so much more than a story. TONS of historical evidence including our dating system. BC =Before Chrsit, AD = After Death. And all of those eyewitnes accounts.*And when did the dating system turn to AD? Not in the First Century… that much I know.
PJM;6251570:

You mention 500 witness; that was at a single time. Thousands saw him over the 40 days.

Right, I was only aware of Paul’s mention of a few people and the group of 500 in one day who saw the Resurrected Jesus. Where do you get thousands over 40 days?

Everyone here wants names of martyrs. Lets start with the guys who were closest to Christ…
The Apostles died for their beliefs .

So what , you say ???.. Yet here is a group of 11 sane men who endured harsh lives and great suffering for the sake of spreading the most incredible story in recorded history. How sure were they of their facts ? They all went to their graves enduring horrible tortures, each proclaiming to the death, that Jesus Christ had risen from the grave, and was God Incarnate. All of them. That’s how sure they were.

I was unaware that ALL of the Apostles saw the Resurrected Jesus and gracefully died for witnessing such an “incredible story in recorded history”. From my understanding, every author of the Gospels has their own set of Twelve Apostles… so I’m not sure how you could know that “ALL” of the Apostles died because they wouldn’t submit to the demands of others.

Perhaps you could tell me WHICH TWELVE you’re referring to and how each of them died.

Yes, history has seen many martyrs in many different religions.
What history has not seen, is people willing to die for what they know is a lie.
Remember, unlike us, or people of any other faith, the Apostles were in a position to know for certain that what they professed, to the death, was the truth.

That’s exactly the point… Martyrs dying for what they BELIEVE to be the Truth, but they could not possibly know either way. My reason for asking for Christian Martyrs is because I expected people to pull out a ton of martyrs from the Fourth Century, like one person did above. These people only have HEARSAY to base their belief on… and then they die because of some hearsay. Pretty crazy if you ask me.

Can you imagine yourself, or anyone you have ever known, willingly suffering a torturous death for the sake of proclaiming something you know to be a hoax ? Remember, these guys knew !

If you go to an insane asylum, I’m sure you’ll find people like that… yes. And they’ll KNOW more than you ever will… about Truth!

 

[Scardinoz]

Almost all of the apostles were martyrs and suffered horrendous deaths. John, though not martyred, was tortured on numerous occasions. They all could have admitted, “Hey, I made it all up”, but they didn’t.

The difference between them and other religious martyrs is that they are the ones who actually formulated the theology. They had 100% knowledge of whether or not the theology they developed was true. If they knew they were lying and not gaining anything for it but, instead, being tortured and murdered in mass, why continue?

It doesn’t prove anything, but it is compelling for me.

Regarding specific outcomes…

Simon surnamed Peter died 33-34 years after the death of Christ. According to Smith’s Bible Dictionary there is “satisfactory evidence that he and Paul were the founders of the church at Rome, and died in that city. The time and manner of the apostle’s martyrdom are less certain. According to the early writers, he died at or about the same time with Paul, and in the Neronian persecution, A.D. 67,68. All agree that he was crucified. Origen says that Peter felt himself to be unworthy to be put to death in the same manner as his Master, and was therefore, at his own request, crucified with his head downward.”

James the son of Zebedee: He was put to death by Herod Agrippa I shortly before the day of the Passover, in the year 44 or about 11 years after the death of Christ. From Acts 12: 1-2.

John: No death date given by early writers. Death date is by conjecture only and is variously assigned as being between 89 AD to 120 AD

Andrew: No accurate death date given. A variety of traditions say he preached in Scythia, in Greece, in Asia Minor and Thrace. He is reported to have been crucified at Patrae in Achaia.

Philip: Again, the Bible does not say when he died nor do we have accurate information. According to tradition he preached in Phrygia, and died at Hierapolis.

Bartholomew: There is no information concerning his death, not even by tradition

Matthew: He must have lived many years as an apostle, since he was the author of the Gospel of Matthew which was written at least twenty years after the death of Christ. There is reason to believe that he stayed for fifteen years at Jerusalem, after which he went as missionary to the Persians, Parthians and Medes. There is a legend that he died a martyr in Ethiopia

Thomas: The earlier traditions, as believed in the fourth century, say he preached in Parthia or Persia, and was finally buried at Edessa. The later traditions carry him farther east. His martyrdom whether in Persia or India, is said to have been by a lance, and is commemorated by the Latin Church on December 21 the Greek Church on October 6, and by the Indians on July 1.

James Alpheus : We know he lived at least five years after the death of Christ because of mentions in the Bible. According to tradition, James son of Alpheus was thrown down from the temple by the scribes and Pharisees; he was then stoned, and his brains dashed out with a fuller’s club.

Simon the Canaanite – No information either in the Bible or by tradition.

Jude (Thaddeus) according to tradition Jude taught in Armenia, Syria and Persia where he was martyred. Tradition tells us he was buried in Kara Kalisa in what is now Iran.

Judas Iscariot: Shortly after the death of Christ Judas killed himself. According to the Bible he hanged himself, (Matthew 27:5) at Aceldama, on the southern slope of the valley of Hinnom, near Jerusalem, and in the act he fell down a precipice and was dashed into pieces.

 

[grndslm]

It doesn’t prove anything, but it is compelling for me.

I’d have to agree with you on that. Compelling it is.

Regarding specific outcomes…

THANKS!! That was exactly what I was looking for!

 

[alforo]

Originally Posted by Bob4BVM
Can you imagine yourself, or anyone you have ever known, willingly suffering a >torturous death for the sake of proclaiming something you know to be a hoax ? >Remember, these guys knew !

Do you mean that the martyrs knew it was a hoax and a lie? By what process of scientific historical research did you discover this fact? Do you have any idea what a discovery of this magnitude will have on the historical record? Please elucidate so that we all can verify your claim.