Having your own missal: a 35-year tradition?

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According to history, the Vulgate was supposed to have been the first large project of Gutenberg’s printing press. Imagine the joy and excitement at that time just of being able to afford reading (and better understand) the Bible (even in Latin) rather than just hearing it.

Just thought I’d throw that in. 🙂
 
According to history, the Vulgate was supposed to have been the first large project of Gutenberg’s printing press. Imagine the joy and excitement at that time just of being able to afford reading (and better understand) the Bible (even in Latin) rather than just hearing it.

Just thought I’d throw that in. 🙂
Yeah, if you had the money to afford a Bible. Would the average citizen have been able to afford such or been literate enough to read it?
 
Yeah, if you had the money to afford a Bible. Would the average citizen have been able to afford such or been literate enough to read it?
I’m willing to bet that TPTB sensed the demand and once they were mass-produced the costs would have decreased. But that doesn’t mean everyone went out and bought them up either.

As far as literacy goes, you can’t read what you don’t have, but you can read or learn to read a book you do have. So the literacy rate no doubt improved once they cranked up those presses. 🙂
 
Yeah, if you had the money to afford a Bible. Would the average citizen have been able to afford such or been literate enough to read it?
No, but the average citizen of 1450 would not have complained that the lack of money prevented the purchase of a bible, any more than the lack of money causes today’s average citizen to complain about the inability to go on a pilgramage to the Holy Land or Rome.

Since all books were rare, the average medieval citizen did not fault the Church for not providing a book to read.

The average medieval citizen knew about the faith by other means, chiefly oral means, which had a continuity going back to Christ Himself. Christ, it should be kept in mind, did not spend much time reading scripture to the people - He used his preaching as the primary means to preach His Gospel. The priests and friars of the medieval period also relied on preaching to inculcate the Gospel, and relied on this tradition into the 19th century in places where literacy was low.

The use of Latin and the scarcity of religious books was not the touchstone of the Reformation. The internal divisions within the Church on national lines, revealed by the Western Schism had greatly alienated the people, along with corruption in many levels of the Church administration. The popular appeal that Luther made was against the authority of the Church as such, realizing that the Church could not withstand a wholesale attack on its power to compel obedience or to teach. First, Luther accused the Church authorities of being ungodly - which was in many cases evident. Then, Luther argued that the authority was unnecessary, because all Christians can grasp the Gospel through their private judgement.

A corrollary to private judgment was that the scriptures should be in the vernacular, and possessed by all. The Reformers realized that if this occurred, it would be a powerful antidote to the counter Reformation that was underway by the 1540s - twenty some years after Luther (while still an Augustinian) posted the 95 theses.

It may be well to recall that the theses were posted in response to improper fundraising efforts to finance new St. Peter’s. While we take the great cathedral for granted, we need to remember that it replaced a structure that had been given by Constantine himself, and was the holiest shrine in all the west. The decision to raize it probably scandalized many Catholics, including perhaps Luther, who had visited the old structure as a pilgrim. Being asked to finance what appeared as a breathtaking act of papal hubris was the spark that lit the nascent Reformation.

In this context, the issue of vernacular in the liturgy resumes its proper place as a secondary concern in the development of modern Christianity.
 
Same one as I linked to clear back in post #13 – with the remark in the introduction that “[t]he use of the Roman Missal in their vernacular language seems scarcely to be appreciated by the laity” – but that’s a good link for anybody who wants to download it (a 27.5 MB pdf though, beware).
Ok, sorry. I missed it earlier.

Free bump for the thread though.
 
Thanks. I downloaded this to my hard drive. It makes for an interesting translation if nothing else.

Certain things I noted:

From “To God who rejoiceth my youth” to “To God who giveth joy to my youth” (Nice poetry but I fail to see how this explains the Psalm.)

“Consubstantial to the Father” in the Creed superceded later.

The rest seemed to be of Cranmer influence as it is today.
 
Thanks. I downloaded this to my hard drive. It makes for an interesting translation if nothing else.

Certain things I noted:

From “To God who rejoiceth my youth” to “To God who giveth joy to my youth” (Nice poetry but I fail to see how this explains the Psalm.)

“Consubstantial to the Father” in the Creed superceded later.

The rest seemed to be of Cranmer influence as it is today.
Still need to read through it. I’m not too familiar with Cranmer, just his brief bio.
 
I think a lot of people completely underestimate Catholic Schools. I’m pretty sure that perior to the mid-20th century, Catholic school-boys and girls would have been taught to know what “Ad deum qui laetificat juventutem meum”. And honestly, if you’re attending Mass at least every Sunday for your entire life, you’re going to pick a thing or two. A missal is is not necessary to understand what’s going on at Mass.

And I think it’s quite obvious that the majority of people at the least understood when the consecration happens and what happens at the consecration.
 
I think a lot of people completely underestimate Catholic Schools. I’m pretty sure that perior to the mid-20th century, Catholic school-boys and girls would have been taught to know what “Ad deum qui laetificat juventutem meum”.
Hardly - in addition to which they wouldn’t have heard it. As an altar boy of the era, I can assure you that neither the priest’s parts nor the acolyte’s responses were audible to the congregation during most of the Mass. Only with the beginning of the Dialogue Mass were the laity in the congregation about to hear the priest routinely and respond, poorly, (and without understanding, generally) using phonetically spelled booklets.

And, never once, in Catholic school, did one hear Latin - not in grammar school. One studied catechism. As to high school, one studied Caesar’s Gallic Wars - if one attended a Catholic high school in which Latin was requisite - which were certainly not all.
 
Where do you think these 19th century folk were who had money for missals and bibles. Do you really believe that the starving Irish farmer, smelling rotted potatoes in his fields and lacking the physical strength to bury his own dead child, had such books in the sod cabin? Or the peasant in the villages of continental Europe, hoping that the tax on his crops would leave him enough to survive the winter?

You do realize, do you not, that these were the average Catholics of the time? And it wasn’t remarkably different here in America - my family was comparatively well-off; my grandfather owned a business; both he and my grandmother could read and write (none of my great-grandparents could) and all of their children but one finished high school, as well as 3 going on to complete professional schooling.

Not one of them could understand a word of Latin. My Dad, an altarboy in his time, was able to assist me in memorizing my respones, but only because he had memorized them. He did not know what they meant, nor did the vast majority of altarboys from my era. I was thought ‘odd’ because I bothered to learn.
 
Hardly - in addition to which they wouldn’t have heard it. As an altar boy of the era, I can assure you that neither the priest’s parts nor the acolyte’s responses were audible to the congregation during most of the Mass. Only with the beginning of the Dialogue Mass were the laity in the congregation about to hear the priest routinely and respond, poorly, (and without understanding, generally) using phonetically spelled booklets.

And, never once, in Catholic school, did one hear Latin - not in grammar school. One studied catechism. As to high school, one studied Caesar’s Gallic Wars - if one attended a Catholic high school in which Latin was requisite - which were certainly not all.
I suppose it depends on one’s own experience. While Latin was not “taught” as such in grammar school, the Mass and how to recognize its parts was taught, With the promotion of the Missa Recitata, so too the actual responses themselves. Further, it wasn’t unusual to also be taught to sing the Ordinary of at least Mass VIII, along with several Marian Antiphons and various other devotional prayers, all in Latin.
 
the Mass and how to recognize its parts was taught, With the promotion of the Missa Recitata, so too the actual responses themselves.
The Mass and it parts, yes, the responses no.
Further, it wasn’t unusual to also be taught to sing the Ordinary of at least Mass VIII, along with several Marian Antiphons and various other devotional prayers, all in Latin.
Being taught to sing them in Latin and knowing what you were singing are not the same thing.
 
Being taught to sing them in Latin and knowing what you were singing are not the same thing.
That may be true but I don’t quite understand why you’re saying it here. What would you say to those who don’t know English? That they shouldn’t make the effort to sing in English unless they know precisely what they’re singing? :confused:
 
That may be true but I don’t quite understand why you’re saying it here. What would you say to those who don’t know English? That they shouldn’t make the effort to sing in English unless they know precisely what they’re singing? :confused:
Yeah, better to not know what you are saying in Latin than in English. :rolleyes:
 
Okay, say they were completely ignorant of what the prayers mean… that really doesn’t matter. You don’t have to know what the prayers at the foot of the altar mean. As long as you understand the Real Presence and receive in a state of grace, you’re sorted.

The well-off accountant in Pittsburgh may understand the Mass prayers today better than the Irish farmer, but the Irish farmer would have had proper respect and reverence in approaching God Himself.
 
Okay, say they were completely ignorant of what the prayers mean… that really doesn’t matter. You don’t have to know what the prayers at the foot of the altar mean. As long as you understand the Real Presence and receive in a state of grace, you’re sorted.
Pope Pius XII himself lamented about the “mechanical” way that people celebrated the faith. Vatican II realized that the laity are just as much part of the Church as the pope, bishops, priests and religious. Don’t you think that actually knowing what it is that one is praying has some benefit to those in attendance? Or should we enter the 21st century droning like robots to words that we parrot in prayers that we don’t understand?
 
Pope Pius XII himself lamented about the “mechanical” way that people celebrated the faith. Vatican II realized that the laity are just as much part of the Church as the pope, bishops, priests and religious. Don’t you think that actually knowing what it is that one is praying has some benefit to those in attendance? Or should we enter the 21st century droning like robots to words that we parrot in prayers that we don’t understand?
Of course it’s better to know what Ordinary of Mass. Which is one of the great benefits of missals. But you do not have to.
 
Of course it’s better to know what Ordinary of Mass. Which is one of the great benefits of missals. But you do not have to.
I suppose that’s true. If you really want to get down to it, though, you don’t really* have* to participate at all; you can just sit there like a rock. However, the issue is about participating, not what you* have* to do.
 
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