HBO Scientology documentary

[randomuser]

Of course it is false. But the motives of the network and people are important. They lump all religion together. Except for the sacred cow of Islam. I’d like to see HBO do something on that bogus faith! I guess it is easier when you know Tom cruise won’t behead your children and will continue to run movies on HBO channels.

Actually, that generalization is not entirely correct considering you’re talking about the network that in fact allows Bill Maher to routinely rip on Islam. Furthermore, HBO also broadcast the Oscar-nominated documentary about Mother Dolores Hart (the actress who left Hollywood), “God Is Bigger Than Elvis.” To the issue at hand, since the thread seems to have gotten derailed, it was in fact HBO who broadcast the allegation that this Scientology “religion” encouraged its pregnant members to get abortions, or/and relinquish custody if they chose life. That’s pretty messed up.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Actually, that generalization is not entirely correct considering you’re talking about the network that in fact allows Bill Maher to routinely rip on Islam. Furthermore, HBO also broadcast the Oscar-nominated documentary about Mother Dolores Hart (the actress who left Hollywood), “God Is Bigger Than Elvis.” To the issue at hand, since the thread seems to have gotten derailed, it was in fact HBO who broadcast the allegation that this Scientology “religion” encouraged its pregnant members to get abortions, or/and relinquish custody if they chose life. That’s pretty messed up.

I’m not sure your point. Many religions encourage abortions including branches of Christianity. Hubbard was pro life…

Antisemitism created an environment where people believed Jews drank the blood of their own babies… To me, I feel uncomfortable throwing the first stone…

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

I’m not sure your point. Many religions encourage abortions including branches of Christianity. Hubbard was pro life…

Antisemitism created an environment where people believed Jews drank the blood of their own babies… To me, I feel uncomfortable throwing the first stone…

Both the HBO program and the book it’s based on - which I read - documents that Hubbard encouraged pregnant members of the Sea Org division to get abortions.

 

[DakiniArtist]

At least when Hubbard was hanging with his fellow science fiction writers, he was an outlier and was very pro-life, much to the consternation of a few of his peers.

After that, I do not know.

 

[randomuser]

At least when Hubbard was hanging with his fellow science fiction writers, he was an outlier and was very pro-life, much to the consternation of a few of his peers.

After that, I do not know.

Source, please (for the supposed “pro-life” views)?

The source for the “pro-abortion” views: the book “Going Clear: Scientology, Hollywood, and The Prison of Belief” by Lawrence Wright, which has lists numerous citations and references for its claims. The book was published in 2013 (two years ago BEFORE any HBO documentary) and was a finalist for the National Book Award for Nonfiction and was shortlisted for the 2013 National Book Critics Circle Award - so, it’s a credible source.

 

[randomuser]

I’m not sure your point. Many religions encourage abortions including branches of Christianity. Hubbard was pro life…

Pro-life? Really?

This is from 2009:
“WASHINGTON, D.C. (Catholic Online) - Sea Organization or Sea Org is a sort of religious order within Scientology where only the most committed members of the late L. Ron Hubbard’s cult live out their lives. For the unborn child of a mother in Sea Org, that isn’t very long. They are aborted.”
Source: catholic.org/news/national/story.php?id=34810

 

[DakiniArtist]

Source, please (for the supposed “pro-life” views)?

A family friend who hung out with him. Whether Ron said these things to be contrary or later changed his mind is anyone’s guess.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Pro-life? Really?

This is from 2009:
“WASHINGTON, D.C. (Catholic Online) - Sea Organization or Sea Org is a sort of religious order within Scientology where only the most committed members of the late L. Ron Hubbard’s cult live out their lives. For the unborn child of a mother in Sea Org, that isn’t very long. They are aborted.”
Source: catholic.org/news/national/story.php?id=34810

Yes, there is a scandal in regaurds to sea org. But I said Hubbard was Pro life in his original writings. He was
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_and_abortion

Hubbard wrote in Dianetics, “The child on whom the abortion is attempted is condemned to live with murderers whom he reactively knows to be murderers through all this weak and helpless youth!”.[1] He asserted:

A large proportion of allegedly feeble-minded children are actually attempted abortion cases, whose engrams place them in fear paralysis or regressive palsy and which command them not to grow but to be where they are forever.

However many billions America spends yearly on institutions for the insane and jails for the criminals are spent primarily because of attempted abortions done by some sex-blocked mother to whom children are a curse, not a blessing of God.[1][4]

Mislead? Sure. A little weird yeah. But “pro life”

From scientology’s website:
scientology.org/faq/scientology-attitudes-and-practices/scientology-position-on-birth-control-and-abortion.html

As described in Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health, even attempted abortions are traumatic physically and spiritually to an unborn child, as well as to the mother. Abortion is therefore rare among Scientologists, who recognize that even an unborn fetus may already be occupied by a spiritual being. In some instances, however, abortion might be a recourse owing to health concerns for the mother or other personal factors. The Church never advocates abortion to Church staff or to parishioners.

Now as Catholics we can argue that this is not really pro life as it permits abortions. But one might note that it is similar to most protestant christian Churches views.

As far as being a pro life organization we know that it’s founder was pro life. Yet perhaps the followers strayed from that. Sound familiar? Like Catholics for Choice? Or the 60 percent of Catholics that vote for a pro choice president. Or the Catholic leaders in politics who are notoriously pro abortion. Again this is a glass houses situation and if you did not know that Hubbard was pro life then I would think you are relying heavily on these sensationalist “hit” pieces for your information when a simple google can give you information.

Is the religion false? Absolutely, about as false as any religion could ever be. Is it mysterious and cultlike? Sure that argument can be made. Is it creepy? It is to me!

But lets argue on theology, not misinformation and bigotry and rumor and hearsay. Aren’t we confident in our own faith enough to do that?

 

[pianistclare]

Yes, there is a scandal in regaurds to sea org. But I said Hubbard was Pro life in his original writings. He was
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_and_abortion

Mislead? Sure. A little weird yeah. But “pro life”

From scientology’s website:
scientology.org/faq/scientology-attitudes-and-practices/scientology-position-on-birth-control-and-abortion.html

Now as Catholics we can argue that this is not really pro life as it permits abortions. But one might note that it is similar to most protestant christian Churches views.

As far as being a pro life organization we know that it’s founder was pro life. Yet perhaps the followers strayed from that. Sound familiar? Like Catholics for Choice? Or the 60 percent of Catholics that vote for a pro choice president. Or the Catholic leaders in politics who are notoriously pro abortion. Again this is a glass houses situation and if you did not know that Hubbard was pro life then I would think you are relying heavily on these sensationalist “hit” pieces for your information when a simple google can give you information.

Is the religion false? Absolutely, about as false as any religion could ever be. Is it mysterious and cultlike? Sure that argument can be made. Is it creepy? It is to me!

But lets argue on theology, not misinformation and bigotry and rumor and hearsay. Aren’t we confident in our own faith enough to do that?

A person strong in their faith does indeed point out errors. The fact that many Christians and Catholics turn a blind eye to such evil organizations is exactly why they thrive, and the pain and confusion they bring to people continues. A “what’s that got to do with me attitude” hurts society.
God expects us to speak up.
We can’t afford to worry whether people believe us to be “nice” or “agreeable” to every perverse thing that comes along. People’s souls are lost, not to mention lives and families destroyed.
I guess the Nazi’s were just having a bad day? Let’s not have any documentaries about them either.
Honestly. Throwing rocks does not equate to truth.
I’m not going to watch it because as I said, I don’t subscribe to HBO, but even if I did, I don’t want to fill my mind with that nonsense. I know enough about them, thanks HBO. But many do not. Many believe this is a viable “faith”. They need to watch it.
The true faith survives. Regardless of how many exposes are written. If the Scientologists want to refute it they are free do so. In fact, I hear that YouTube is full of their tracts, and they serve to only underscore the crazy.

 

[DakiniArtist]

PianistClare,

Very insightful post. Much to think about.

Two close family members are big Neil deGrasse Tyson fans (I feel like the lone non-fan in the world sometimes! I miss Carl Sagan). One sent me this quote this morning:

“So, you have people who are certain that a man in a robe transforms a cracker into the literal body of Jesus saying that what goes on in Scientology is crazy?"

…and I’m getting the memes that say, If you believe in the Christian story of Jesus, you can’t call Scientology ‘crazy.’–NDT"

So what you’re saying is making a lot of sense right now. Thanks a million.

 

[randomuser]

As far as being a pro life organization we know that it’s founder was pro life.

No, we know no such thing. And it’s not hearsay or misinformation to quote directly from the public record - specifically, his second wife’s Complaint for Divorce. “FILED Apr 23 1951 - IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA - IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES.” That’s not Wikipedia, nor is it Scientology-authored “biography.” It’s a matter of public record - actions alleged and corroborated in the years since that contradict the notion that its founder was in any shape, matter, or form “pro-life,” by any conceivable definition of “pro-life.”

 

[randomuser]

A person strong in their faith does indeed point out errors. The fact that many Christians and Catholics turn a blind eye to such evil organizations is exactly why they thrive, and the pain and confusion they bring to people continues. A “what’s that got to do with me attitude” hurts society.
God expects us to speak up.
We can’t afford to worry whether people believe us to be “nice” or “agreeable” to every perverse thing that comes along. People’s souls are lost, not to mention lives and families destroyed.

:clapping:

 

[DakiniArtist]

No, we know no such thing. And it’s not hearsay or misinformation to quote directly from the public record - specifically, his second wife’s Complaint for Divorce. “FILED Apr 23 1951 - IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA - IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES.” That’s not Wikipedia, nor is it Scientology-authored “biography.” It’s a matter of public record - actions alleged and corroborated in the years since that contradict the notion that its founder was in any shape, matter, or form “pro-life,” by any conceivable definition of “pro-life.”

Okay. We have this, religio.de/books/lifeti/sara.htm Sara Northrup Hubbard’s legal deposition of Hubbard’s actions. He was not, by Catholic narrative, “pro-life.” Did he, to his friends, espouse anti-abortion beliefs, yes. Was he mentally ill? By all accounts, most likely, yes. I doubt anyone who knew the man disputes that.

EDIT:

I have been warned “not to argue with 80 year-old” family friend “with an impeccable memory.”

 

[JimG]

I’ll watch it when I get a chance. I guess they consider me a member . When I was a teenager walking down Hollywood Blvd., they were giving out free copies of dianetics - all they wanted was your name and address. So I foolishly gave mine (never read the book) and now almost 40 years later they still regularly send literature to my mom’s house addressed to me (which promptly goes in the trash). I heard that this was one way they inflate their membership numbers: anyone on their mailing list they consider a member!

Same thing happened to me. I was at a home show at least 20 years ago and foolishly took a book and gave them my name and address. I threw the book away. Now, I STILL get mailings from the once a month. A few months ago I actually got a telephone call from a local Dianetics guy. I said, yeah, I still get your mailings; I always throw them away; you can take me off your list now. But no. I still get mailings!

 

[JimG]

Now I remember. This thread reminded me of Operation Clambake.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

A person strong in their faith does indeed point out errors. The fact that many Christians and Catholics turn a blind eye to such evil organizations is exactly why they thrive, and the pain and confusion they bring to people continues. A “what’s that got to do with me attitude” hurts society.
God expects us to speak up.
We can’t afford to worry whether people believe us to be “nice” or “agreeable” to every perverse thing that comes along. People’s souls are lost, not to mention lives and families destroyed.
I guess the Nazi’s were just having a bad day? Let’s not have any documentaries about them either.
Honestly. Throwing rocks does not equate to truth.
I’m not going to watch it because as I said, I don’t subscribe to HBO, but even if I did, I don’t want to fill my mind with that nonsense. I know enough about them, thanks HBO. But many do not. Many believe this is a viable “faith”. They need to watch it.
The true faith survives. Regardless of how many exposes are written. If the Scientologists want to refute it they are free do so. In fact, I hear that YouTube is full of their tracts, and they serve to only underscore the crazy.

Your post made me think of something. Scientology will probably benefit from the “documentary” more than it will hurt them. To most people who even have heard of it it is relegated to the oddities of grown action stars jumping on Oprah’s couch. Or to those old enough to remember, really cool images of a volcano erupting commercials. Or something that involves a day spa… But now, once secrecy and odd rituals and beliefs are exposed, I think many more will be sucked in. Sort of a “any publicity is good publicity” marketing motto. And it will probably work to their benefit. I mean just recently in the news were teenage girls who went to go join ISIS.

I would think this might attract people more than push them away…

HBO certainly has fancied itself as a “political” activist network for some time. But to me, It will always be the network where as a 12 year old boy I got to see some breasts… Now that is hard hitting journalism…

 

[pianistclare]

Your post made me think of something. Scientology will probably benefit from the “documentary” more than it will hurt them. To most people who even have heard of it it is relegated to the oddities of grown action stars jumping on Oprah’s couch. Or to those old enough to remember, really cool images of a volcano erupting commercials. Or something that involves a day spa… But now, once secrecy and odd rituals and beliefs are exposed, I think many more will be sucked in. Sort of a “any publicity is good publicity” marketing motto. And it will probably work to their benefit. I mean just recently in the news were teenage girls who went to go join ISIS.

I would think this might attract people more than push them away…

HBO certainly has fancied itself as a “political” activist network for some time. But to me, It will always be the network where as a 12 year old boy I got to see some breasts… Now that is hard hitting journalism…

You mean you saw Titanic for the first time on HBO?
It would attract people? Are you serious?
Not anyone with any self respect.
If it does, well, I guess they deserve any heartache they suffer as a result.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

You mean you saw Titanic for the first time on HBO?
It would attract people? Are you serious?
Not anyone with any self respect.
If it does, well, I guess they deserve any heartache they suffer as a result.

I didn’t say it would attract self respecting people. But when you make something a big deal, people will seek it out. Similar to the attraction young teenage girls feel to wicca…

 

[randomuser]

I didn’t say it would attract self respecting people. But when you make something a big deal, people will seek it out. Similar to the attraction young teenage girls feel to wicca…

You may want to YouTube the Megyn Kelly (Fox News) interview with Mike Rinder, one of the “whistle blowers” featured in the documentary:
youtube.com/watch?v=xXfg4NLVbug

Was Megyn Kelly - who called it “shocking” - making a big deal out of it? Was Fox News? Is Fox News in cahoots with HBO?

And, no disrespect, but I think it’s a little…well, silly, for a lack of a better word, to think anyone (self-respecting or not) would want to pay thousands of dollars for Scientology “auditing” courses only to find out the world was created by an intergalactic warlord named Xenu and risk having that same church spy on you and harass you and your family members and demand that you “disconnect” from them. Really? I don’t even think the “50 Shades” crowd would be hip to that. With all due respect, on exactly what basis do you believe Scientology is the beneficiary of “Going Clear” when their membership rates are dropping worldwide, when even Fox News has called them out on their “pro-abortion”/anti-life practices, and there’s even a White House petition to revoke their tax-exempt status (currently at over 12,000 signatures)?
petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/revoke-scientologys-tax-exempt-status

 

[JimG]

You may want to YouTube the Megyn Kelly (Fox News) interview with Mike Rinder, one of the “whistle blowers” featured in the documentary:
youtube.com/watch?v=xXfg4NLVbug

Was Megyn Kelly - who called it “shocking” - making a big deal out of it? Was Fox News? Is Fox News in cahoots with HBO?

And, no disrespect, but I think it’s a little…well, silly, for a lack of a better word, to think anyone (self-respecting or not) would want to pay thousands of dollars for Scientology “auditing” courses only to find out the world was created by an intergalactic warlord named Xenu and risk having that same church spy on you and harass you and your family members and demand that you “disconnect” from them. Really? I don’t even think the “50 Shades” crowd would be hip to that. With all due respect, on exactly what basis do you believe Scientology is the beneficiary of “Going Clear” when their membership rates are dropping worldwide, when even Fox News has called them out on their “pro-abortion”/anti-life practices, and there’s even a White House petition to revoke their tax-exempt status (currently at over 12,000 signatures)?
petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/revoke-scientologys-tax-exempt-status

Well, L. Ron Hubbard did get his start as a science fiction writer.
But Xenu just doesn’t cut it!