He who endures to the end will be saved!

[Rocket_Man]

You keep avoiding crystal clear scriptures by posting irrelevant evasions.

As I said earlier in previous threads, I had no strength to change from being a child of the devil to a child of God unless he changed me. What did He change in me?

 

[izoid]

“And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.”

"But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

“So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.”

YOu post so much Scripture that I hope you have permission from the publisher, you don’t want to violate the copyright laws.

 

[Rocket_Man]

YOu post so much Scripture that I hope you have permission from the publisher, you don’t want to violate the copyright laws.

You should know the answer to this one. I had no strength to change from being a child of the devil to a child of God unless He changed me. What did He change in me?

Then it happened, as He was coming near Jericho, that a certain blind man sat by the road begging. And hearing a multitude passing by, he asked what it meant. 37 So they told him that Jesus of Nazareth was passing by.** And he cried out, saying, “Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me!”** Then those who went before warned him that he should be quiet; but he cried out all the more, “Son of David, have mercy on me!” So Jesus stood still and commanded him to be brought to Him. And when he had come near, He asked him, saying, “What do you want Me to do for you?” He said, “Lord, that I may receive my sight.” Then Jesus said to him, “Receive your sight; your faith has made you well.” And immediately he received his sight, and followed Him, glorifying God. And all the people, when they saw it, gave praise to God.

And it came to pass, as he went to Jerusalem, that he passed through the midst of Samaria and Galilee. And as he entered into a certain village, there met him ten men that were lepers, which stood afar off: And they lifted up their voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us. And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed. And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God, And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan. And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine? There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger. And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

Then one of the Pharisees asked Him to eat with him. And He went to the Pharisee’s house, and sat down to eat. And behold, a woman in the city who was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at the table in the Pharisee’s house, brought an alabaster flask of fragrant oil, and stood at His feet behind Him weeping; and she began to wash His feet with her tears, and wiped them with the hair of her head; and she kissed His feet and anointed them with the fragrant oil. Now when the Pharisee who had invited Him saw this, he spoke to himself, saying, “This Man, if He were a prophet, would know who and what manner of woman this is who is touching Him, for she is a sinner.” And Jesus answered and said to him, “Simon, I have something to say to you.” So he said, “Teacher, say it.” “There was a certain creditor who had two debtors. One owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. And when they had nothing with which to repay, he freely forgave them both. Tell Me, therefore, which of them will love him more?” Simon answered and said, “I suppose the one whom he forgave more.” And He said to him, “You have rightly judged.” Then He turned to the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has washed My feet with her tears and wiped them with the hair of her head. You gave Me no kiss, but this woman has not ceased to kiss My feet since the time I came in. You did not anoint My head with oil, but this woman has anointed My feet with fragrant oil. **Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. **But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little.” Then He said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

You should know the answer to this one. I had no strength to change from being a child of the devil to a child of God unless He changed me. What did He change in me?

”

No one is denying the need for God’s grace.

You are denying the reality of our ongoing struggle with sin and the devil.

God will help us persevere, but we still must persevere.

Do you think you will go to heaven if you persistently ignore the commandments of Jesus?

 

[Rocket_Man]

Do you think you will go to heaven if you persistently ignore the commandments of Jesus?

Ignoring the commandments of God is inconsistent with the work of Christ in one’s heart.

For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. **And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. ** And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I

Ignoring the commandments of God is inconsistent with the work of Christ in one’s heart

 

[Rocket_Man]

You are denying the reality of our ongoing struggle with sin and the devil.

Absolutely we still struggle. But before I came to Christ, I didn’t struggle at all. I just followed my lusts without any restraint. Now that Christ Jesus is in me and I am born of God, there is a new desire to serve Christ that overcomes the desires of the flesh. Do I still sin, Yes, but as a pattern of life I am now bent towards pleasing Him. It’s a complete turn around from before. And it’s all comes from something He changed in me. What was it?

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

“And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.”

For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Absolutely we still struggle. But before I came to Christ, I didn’t struggle at all. I just followed my lusts without any restraint. Now that Christ Jesus is in me and I am born of God, there is a new desire to serve Christ that overcomes the desires of the flesh. ]

We can succeed with the help of God’s grace if we cooperate with this grace.

However, we have a responsibility to strive for holiness.

James 2
20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

Romans 2
6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

1 Peter 1:17
Since you call on a Father who judges each man’s work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.

 

[guanophore]

Verse 39 says, "But we are not like those who shrink back to destruction, but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Indeed, the “we” here are those who remain in the Church (In Christ) and are faithful. those who reject the Teachings of theChurch fall from grace, (shrink back to destruction). This is the meaning of “anathema”.

 

[graceandglory]

In reagards to Final perseverence, what is it you are praying for?

We pray for final perseverence. Don’t you? We don’t know today what our journey is going to look like. Who knows what kinds of hardships and torture we will face. Will we be faithful to the end? Catholics pray about that. By praying and meditating, we are more ready to do whatever it takes to take up our cross and follow Jesus.

 

[guanophore]

But only for those where the seed is not retained.

Yes, but if we look at the parable of the seeds, we see that 75%
of the seeds were “retained”. Yet, of those that sprouted, two thirds that were retained and sprouted later died.

 

[guanophore]

rovimax;6066447:

How is the doing something measured? How do you know if you are currently picking up the cross all the way? What if you decide that your going to visit your mother in the nursing home instead of going to Sunday Mass. What if your in a fatal car accident before your able to repent of a mortal sin. How do you know if you’ve endured until the end?

These are very good questions! Clearly you do not understand the Apostolic instruction on mortal sin, and confession.

These questions are the very reason that Jesus founded a Church, and appointed authority. By His HS he preserves her into all Truth, so that we can have confident assurance about the issues you raise.

Is there some reason that you would think that the NT, written by, for, and about Catholics, would not apply to Catholics? What makes you think the assurances contained in it do not pertain to Catholics?

 

[Bob4BVM]

Looks to me like this thread is another discussion about what non-Catholics mistakenly THINK the Church teaches.
How many of these do we have to have ?
Read the Catechism folks. Read the Early Church Fathers. Read with an open mind and heart, trying to lay aside all your preconceptions for a while–just try to see what they say.
Then if there are still some sticking points, come back and discuss.
But please don’t start the discussion with erroneous preconceptions of Church teaching.

---

“There are not a hundred people who hate the Catholic church, but there are millions who hate what they think the Catholic church to be” --Bishop Fulton Sheen

---

 

[Bob4BVM]

What’s your point?
Would you care to comment or answer my post with something other than random Scripture passages?

My question exactly, I wish he would make his point clear, Lots of verses, but to what point ??

 

[guanophore]

So, do you believe that if you do go to confession that that is all that is necessary to be saved?

to some extent, this is true. In confession we repent of our sins, and trust in the blood of Jesus, shed on the cross, to pay for them. We make prayer that we may bear fruits that befit repentance, and then follow it with such deeds (penance).

Jesus said that He will save all that come to Him in faith. Do you think something else is necessary?

It seems to me that we are saved by grace through faith. Not by anything we do. But by what Jesus did for us.

Eph.2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

We are saved by grace, through faith. However, the fact that our salvation is a free gift does not mean that we do nothing. Unless our faith mixes with His grace, we will not be saved.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Absolutely we still struggle. But before I came to Christ, I didn’t struggle at all. I just followed my lusts without any restraint. Now that Christ Jesus is in me and I am born of God, there is a new desire to serve Christ that overcomes the desires of the flesh. Do I still sin, Yes, but as a pattern of life I am now bent towards pleasing Him. It’s a complete turn around from before. And it’s all comes from something He changed in me. What was it?

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

“And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.”

For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

All you experts and yet not one of you has attempted to tell me what He changed in me?

 

[guanophore]

You seem to think here that your salvation hinges on whether or not you go into a box and tell your sins to another sinner. You say nothing here about faith or Jesus or His sacrifice. So, you can understand my concern.

I understand that you have a considerable degree of prejudice and misundertanding against the Catholic faith.

You may be unaware or unlearned about the Eastern Rites as much as you are the Latin. The “box” is not used in the East. Furthermore, modern Rite of Reconciliation is often face to face (no “box”).

When we participate in the Sacrament of Reconciliation, we are confessing our sins to God. The priest acts in the person of Christ, by His authority, so that we can know that our sins are forgiven. It is a great assurance for those of us who are doubters and tend to beat up on ourselves with guilt.

The only reason that confession of our sins is of benefit to us is because of our faith in Christ, and His blood, shed upon the cross for our sins.

I certainly do not want to downplay the importance of works. They are important, but the only works that matter are a** result **of our acceptance of Christ and what He did for us. Any works done outside of that acceptance is utterly useless and will not get us into heaven.

It is very Catholic of you to say this!

I guess my point is that a person could go into the confessional with the best of intentions and that person could recieve absolution and think they are sin free, but without that acceptance of what Jesus did for us, they are still in thier sins.

This actually makes no sense at all, Richard. No one enters the confessional until they have accepted that Jesus died on the cross for their sins. When you make statements like this, it really seems to show that you have absolutely no understanding about the Catholic faith.

This is the major concern I have with what the CC teaches. they seem to have usurped the power that rightly and only belong to Almighty God and as a result many or most or maybe all Catholics think that they can get to heaven because of thier misplaced faith in a church rather than in God.

I can understand how it would seem that way. If a person rejects the authority that Christ gave to the Aposltes, and they to their successors, then one would imagine that the Catholic Church did not have authority from God. If this were true, then it would seem “usurped” rather than power gifted to the Church by Christ.

Jesus is not separate from His Body, Richard. It is not "Church rather than God’, but God through the Church.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Yes, but if we look at the parable of the seeds, we see that 75%
of the seeds were “retained”. Yet, of those that sprouted, two thirds that were retained and sprouted later died.

Unfortunately, I feel your reading into the parable of the seeds to reach your conclusion that the seed was sown by God in the heart. Again, I don’t know how many times I need to post it but 1 John 3 explicitly refutes your claim.

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

 

[rovimax]

Rocket_Man;6066488:

These are very good questions! Clearly you do not understand the Apostolic instruction on mortal sin, and confession.

These questions are the very reason that Jesus founded a Church, and appointed authority. By His HS he preserves her into all Truth, so that we can have confident assurance about the issues you raise.

Is there some reason that you would think that the NT, written by, for, and about Catholics, would not apply to Catholics? What makes you think the assurances contained in it do not pertain to Catholics?

I did not post on what is in # 52, how did that happen?

 

[Rocket_Man]

We can succeed with the help of God’s grace if we cooperate with this grace.

However, we have a responsibility to strive for holiness.
James 2
20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

God "will give to each person according to what he has done."7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

1 Peter 1:17
Since you call on a Father who judges each man’s work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.

Faith without works is dead faith.

"And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. "