He who endures to the end will be saved!

[Rocket_Man]

Indeed, the “we” here are those who remain in the Church (In Christ) and are faithful. those who reject the Teachings of theChurch fall from grace, (shrink back to destruction). This is the meaning of “anathema”.

“if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come”

“Because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.”

"As many as received Him, as received Christ, to them He gave the right to become the children of God, even to those who believe in His name.

“They went out from us because they were not of us, if they had been of us they would have continued with us, **but they went out from us that it might be made manifest they never were of us.” **

But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul

 

[guanophore]

We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.

We are not under the sway! We are not bent towards sin!

It’s incompatible with the work of Christ in the heart of a believer!

So, Paul the Apostle must not be born of God, since he wrote about himself as he did in Rom. 7.

 

[guanophore]

You should know the answer to this one. I had no strength to change from being a child of the devil to a child of God unless He changed me. What did He change in me?

Rocket, He was waiting there, knocking on the door, ever since you were baptized. You came to a point where you were willing to humble yourself before Him, so all the gifts that were placed inside you could finally be released.

 

[guanophore]

This response reminds me of Voltare, if they want to talk to me they must speak my language.

Unfortunately, communication is the responsibility of the speaker, he or she must ensure that their audience understands them. It is not enough to understand yourself.

If you are implying that the Catholic Church teaches that confession, the sacrament, saves you then you are wrong. If you are implying that the Catholic Church teaches that faith in the Church saves you, you are wrong.

You see, you made broad sweeping suggestions that are all based on a lack of knowledge. I was asking that you clarify what you were actually saying.

Maybe for Rocket that is enough? It has been pointed out that he does not seem to be here to learn. Previous posts seem to indicate he is here to evangelize Catholics.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Rocket, He was waiting there, knocking on the door, ever since you were baptized. You came to a point where you were willing to humble yourself before Him, so all the gifts that were placed inside you could finally be released.

guan, I know that you sincerely believe this because you have too. Else you would need to repent and be baptized. I know who I was for 29 years before rebirth. I was a child of the devil and his work was the desire of my heart. I have friends that were not baptized Catholic that also repented and recieved a new heart to follow Christ. I’m sure through your life journeys you also saw folks make a 180 degree turn after coming to Christ. How can you argue with the Spirit? Don’t these type of repentent conversions line up with the fullness of Scripture rather than infant baptism.

And Jesus entered and passed through Jericho. And, behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus, which was the chief among the publicans, and he was rich. And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature. And he ran before, and climbed up into a sycomore tree to see him: for he was to pass that way. And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house. And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully. And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner. And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold. And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham. For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

 

[guanophore]

Absolutely we still struggle. But before I came to Christ, I didn’t struggle at all. I just followed my lusts without any restraint. Now that Christ Jesus is in me and I am born of God, there is a new desire to serve Christ that overcomes the desires of the flesh. Do I still sin, Yes, but as a pattern of life I am now bent towards pleasing Him. It’s a complete turn around from before. And it’s all comes from something He changed in me. What was it?

I rejoice that you have turned away from your sinful life Rocket, and have come to serve the Lord into whom you were baptized as an infant.

However, if you think your sin nature (bent towards) sin is gone, you are mistaken.

Thanks be to God for His inexpressible gift. Through Him we are able to overcome our propensity toward evil, and His Spirit in us makes us long for the good, rather than the evil.

 

[Rocket_Man]

However, if you think your sin nature (bent towards) sin is gone, you are mistaken.

Was the Apostle John also mistaking? He seems to think we are overcomers!

And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming. If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him

**Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! **Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.

Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. ** For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.**

Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? his is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood.

 

[guanophore]

All you experts and yet not one of you has attempted to tell me what He changed in me?

None of us here claim to be “experts” of anything, Rocket, least of all the state of your soul.

You believe that your spirit was regenerated. Who are we to argue? What matters most is that you are walking with God.

By His grace, maybe some of the things you learned about the Catholic Church can be corrected?

 

[guanophore]

Unfortunately, I feel your reading into the parable of the seeds to reach your conclusion that the seed was sown by God in the heart.

No, no need for that. Jesus clearly explained the parable"

Mar 4:14 The sower sows the word.
Mar 4:15 And these are the ones along the path, where the word is sown: when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word that is sown in them.
Mar 4:16 And these are the ones sown on rocky ground: the ones who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy.
Mar 4:17 And they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away.
Mar 4:18 And others are the ones sown among thorns. They are those who hear the word,
Mar 4:19 but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.

They immediately received the word with joy. the seeds entered and sprouted. Later, they fell away. A person cannot “fall away” from something they dont’ have,a nd a plant that was not growing cannot wither. Neither can a plant that is not growing be “choked” by a weed. Since we know that no one can receive His word with joy except by the HS, this was grace at work in these hearts.

Again, I don't know how many times I need to post it but 1 John 3 explicitly refutes your claim.

no amount of you posting will get me to abandon the faith that the Apostles committed to the church.

Both of these things are true. Seeds can sprout, grow, then wither.

The life of being choked by weeds and being carried away by the temptations of this world are incompatible with the life of Christ.

The only disagreement we have is that you think a regenerated person cannot fall away, but Jesus clearly says they do.

 

[guanophore]

guan, I know that you sincerely believe this because you have too.

No, Rocket, I don’t. I studied and prayed my way into this believe. No one was coercing me.

Else you would need to repent and be baptized.

You are mistaken, Rocket. I spent years repenting of my sins every week, going up to altar calls,a nd was baptized three times, because I thought maybe it did not “take”.

I know who I was for 29 years before rebirth. I was a child of the devil and his work was the desire of my heart.

I do not see that it is helpful for me to argue with you about your self perception. If believing this helps you walk with God in purity, then who am I to contend with you?

I have friends that were not baptized Catholic that also repented and recieved a new heart to follow Christ. I’m sure through your life journeys you also saw folks make a 180 degree turn after coming to Christ.

Indeed, and some of us have spun around several times!

 How can you argue with the Spirit? Don't these type of repentent conversions line up with the fullness of Scripture rather than infant baptism.

Both are true,and there is no comptetition between them.

The Apostles understood and taught that baptism replaced circumcision as the entrance rite into the kingdom,a nd the saw no need to withold it from children, especially after He said “suffer them to come unto me,a nd hinder them not”.

I am sorry if you still have resentments about your spiritual upbringing.

 

[guanophore]

I did not post on what is in # 52, how did that happen?

It looks like Rocket made a reply to yours, and left your name in it, and I did not delete it when I replied.

 

[guanophore]

Was the Apostle John also mistaking? He seems to think we are overcomers!

No, but not everyone remains “in Christ” after they have become partakers of His grace.

However, if you wish to believe it is impossible for you to fall from grace, then I will leave you to your belief.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Faith without works is dead faith.

"And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. "

Exactly. Can dead faith save you?

 

[graceandglory]

However, if you think your sin nature (bent towards) sin is gone, you are mistaken.
.

I am familiar with this theology.I once knew a man well who believed he never sinned after age 4, when he received his pentecostal baptism. It doesn’t line up with reality. God gave us both faith and REASON, and expects us to use both to come to Him.

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

The belief that you don’t sin once you are converted is heretical to ALL orthodox Christians, protestant and Catholic.

The sad thing is that there are millions of mediocre Christians who have made the conversion from horrid sinner to “saved,” but few continue on their journey toward righteousness. (sanctification) Many give up mortal sin and get saved. (that’s good) But few Christians wish to be bothered by giving up their venial sins. And THAT is why we have the sacrament of Confession. (This isn’t my thought, it’s roughly paraphrased from Fr. Thomas Dubay’s Deep Conversion/Deep Prayer.
amazon.com/Deep-Conversion-Prayer-Thomas-Dubay/dp/1586171178

If you don’t think you are still a sinner, ask people you work with.

 

[Rocket_Man]

---

No, but not everyone remains “in Christ” after they have become partakers of His grace.

quan, they were never with us.

1 John 2:19
“They went out from us because they were not of us, if they had been of us they would have continued with us, but they went out from us that it might be made manifest they never were of us.”

 

[guanophore]

---

quan, they were never with us.

1 John 2:19
“They went out from us because they were not of us, if they had been of us they would have continued with us, but they went out from us that it might be made manifest they never were of us.”

I agree that the apostle here refers to those who infiltrated the Church, those who were wolves among the sheep. However the fact that these do exist does not preclude that some are born again, then fall away.

These were such as Act_15:1," Certain men came down from Judea, and taught the brethren…"“They were not inwardly such as we are: But they were not of us; they had not from the heart obeyed the form of sound doctrine delivered to them; they were not of our union with Christ the head.”

Those who receive the Apostolic doctrine are not described here. These persons, like many modern day evangelicals, attempt to “extract” sound doctrine rather than receiving it from the Source.

“For, if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us (1Jo_2:19); had the sacred truth been rooted in their hearts it would have held them with us; had they had the anointing from above.

One cannot “commit apostasy” (fall away) from something they never embraced.

 

[Rocket_Man]

One cannot “commit apostasy” (fall away) from something they never embraced.

There are many antichrists, one thing they share among them is denial of the Son. They do not need to embrace Christ and then fall away to inherit the label.

They have fallen from the “only name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”

"Who is a liar but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son, the same has not the Father: he that acknowledges the Son has the Father also. "

“These things have I written to you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which you have received of him stays in you, and you need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, you shall abide in him.”

 

[guanophore]

There are many antichrists, one thing they share among them is denial of the Son. They do not need to embrace Christ and then fall away to inherit the label.

True, but the label under discussion here is not that of anti-Christ, but of apostate. Although some apostates do become anti-Christs, not all anti-Christs are apostates. In fact, most anti-Christs were never joined to Him.

Apostates are those who were joined to Him, they rooted, and sprouted, but did not bear any fruit. They embraced the Teaching, the let go, fell from grace, and had their names blotted out of the book of life.

They have fallen from the “only name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”

No, Rocket. Every human being who is born into this world is born under a sentence of death. this is why Jesus said:

Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Everyone is already condemned by virtue of the Fall of Adam and Eve. They were fallen from the moment they were born.

"Who is a liar but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son, the same has not the Father: he that acknowledges the Son has the Father also. "

This verse is irrelevant to the discussion of apostasy.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Apostates are those who were joined to Him, they rooted, and sprouted, but did not bear any fruit. They embraced the Teaching, the let go, fell from grace, and had their names blotted out of the book of life.

Would Moses leading the children out of bondage with many signs and wonders and then the children turning away on the foot of the mountain because of the delay of Moses coming down a picture of apostacy?

“And Aaron spake all the words which the LORD had spoken unto Moses, and did the signs in the sight of the people. And the people believed: and when they heard that the LORD had visited the children of Israel, and that he had looked upon their affliction, then they bowed their heads and worshipped.”

"For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; "

 

[elvisman]

Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our[a] faith. Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him. If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself,[e] and the wicked one does not touch him. We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.

Is the author speaking of physical death or spiritual death?

John is speaking of spiritual death. Whereas venial sin injures our relationship with God - mortal (deadly) sin severs it.

**It is dangerousto think that just because you are a child of God, you cannot fall into deadly sin. The Scriptures are replete with examples of this erroneous belief *(******Rom. 11:22, ****Heb. 10:26-27, ****2 Peter 2:26-27, ****Matt. 7:21, *1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 4:4).