He who endures to the end will be saved!

[Justy90]

Your mistake, though is that John did not write this – PETER did.
John was speaking of an entirely different situation.
Peter was speaking of those who believe, then fall away.

You** make the neophyte error in thinking that you were saved when Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the world.**
You’re confusing REDEMTION with SALVATION.

Jesus redeemed the world by his work on the cross. He PAID for us. We are only fully saved when we are gone from this world and have died in God’s grace, having *cooperated *with that grace which is neither forced on us OR held back from us.

****Tell me something - you *seem *****to have a grasp on heaven being outside of time.
Do you agree that the Catholic Church unnecessarily sacrifices Jesus at each mass?

why do you keep trying to paint Protestants as stupid here? Could you be cordial at all?

 

[Justy90]

I know. ALL Protestant sects teach a partial of false gospel because they reject the fullness of the gospel that Christ gave his Church - the Catholic Church.

Remember what Paul said in 1 Tim. 3:15:
The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. Jesus only established ONE Chrcurh - and you aren’t in it if you’re not Catholic.

Circular (Not Scriptural) reasoning in its purest form!

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Your mistake, though is that John did not write this – PETER did.
John was speaking of an entirely different situation.
Peter was speaking of those who believe, then fall away.

You** make the neophyte error in thinking that you were saved when Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the world.**
You’re confusing REDEMTION with SALVATION.

Jesus redeemed the world by his work on the cross. He PAID for us. We are only fully saved when we are gone from this world and have died in God’s grace, having *cooperated *with that grace which is neither forced on us OR held back from us.

****Tell me something - you *seem *****to have a grasp on heaven being outside of time.
Do you agree that the Catholic Church unnecessarily sacrifices Jesus at each mass?

I see where you are leading, but the sacrifice was done in our perspective or time box; just as salvation from justification to glorification is a time process. Jesus work on the cross was completed from Gods perspective before the first person ever was created.

Why would my perspective on the Mass mean a thing? You are unable to discern the basics of the gospel and salvation as you have proven on several posts as RocketMan and I have tried to help you. If you understood the “once for all” & “it is finished” and the clear explanation that Paul gives concerning the bread and cup, followed by the Acts and what the church actually did (break bread), then the question of a Mass would be a mute point in my opinion.

1 Corinthians 11:23-34
23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same way {He took} the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink {it,} in remembrance of Me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes. - Pretty simple and straight foreword explanation and Paul gives more insight to what actually took place at the Last Supper and we can see by Acts, this is how the church perceived it.

Before you can get to the Mass, one must start with proof of a priesthood as your church has established, then proof that priesthood established has the authority and power to command Jesus against His own words where He Himself said He would stay until all his enemies were made a footstool and lives to make intercession for the saints. Then you need to show the authority of the magesterium before you could get to the Mass.

I am not going to tell you not celebrate your Mass; that is central to your religion, but do not expect me to accept anything outside of what I believe God has said in His Word. We can discuss and debate our points of view and hopefully at the end of each day; we learn something new and positive from each other.

God bless you!

Timothy

 

[Rocket_Man]

God has created man in His own image, in His likeness. This means we have the ability to chooose. The fact that He places His Spirit within is, giving us a new heart, does not remove our ability to choose.

Likewise, Israel had the ability to choose, instead of following the cloud they continually looked back over the sea into bondage. Our’s is better covenant, because Christ has done a internal work in us that He hadn’t for Israel, we aren’t children of bondage but children of the free. We aren’t being led to the promise land by the cloud or else left to our own will we would turn back just like Israel.

He has done this work in us because we couldn’t do it ourselves. The new covenant has provided a new heart and will to carry on and march forward to receive the promise.

 

[Carlan]

I am not going to tell you not celebrate your Mass; that is central to your religion, but do not expect me to accept anything outside of what I believe God has said in His Word. We can discuss and debate our points of view and hopefully at the end of each day; we learn something new and positive from each other.

God bless you!

Timothy

It is a matter of faith, you either believe what Jesus says in John6:50-69,or you don’t.

The Bread of Life Discourse and the Effect of the discourse, John 6:60-69. Blessed Christmas to all!Carlan

 

[Justy90]

It is a matter of faith, you either believe what Jesus says in John6:50-69,or you don’t.

The Bread of Life Discourse and the Effect of the discourse, John 6:60-69. Blessed Christmas to all!Carlan

I adhere to all of God’s word. That however does not make me Catholic.

 

[guanophore]

Romans 11:17 - Was written in context to the hardening of Israel, election and the Church. It’s a warning to the church, including the CC, to remain faithful to the promise.

Indeed it does. And it is clear that those who do not WILL BE CUT OFF.

It is not scripture aimed at the doctrine of salvation.

This assertion is based upon a man made, extrabiblical doctrine, and is inconsistent withwhat the Apostles believed and taught.

2 Peter 2:26-27 - Is simply a statement of fact and written in reference to false prophets and their greed. Most likely they came to knowledge of Christ for unpure motives such as personal gain. God is not mocked, they were never genuinely reborn.

Peter is clear that those who have been reborn can fall away from the faith. He, like all the other writers, uses conditional language. That means “if”.

Heb. 10:26-27 - Is simply another repeat of 2 Peter 2: except there is a calling from God and enlightenment to the individual. The individual turns away from the gift, thereby trodding on the blood of Christ whereby he was sancitified. Again, nothing is left for him except judgement. Don’t you willfully sin? I know that when I do sin, I am holding hands with it.

Yes, Jesus did teach that all who sin become a slave to sin. Those who are sanctified by His blood are saved. Those who then trod upon His blood have no expiation for sin. They crucify the Son of God afresh. They have fallen from grace.

1 Cor. 9:27 - Paul is in the race for an incorruptible crown, harvesting souls through his preaching. Like an athelete running a race, he beats his flesh into subjection, so that others hearing his preaching of Christ, will not have any charge against him.

This is all true, but he also says that he may be disqualified. What do you think it means to be “disqualified” from that race?

Let’s refresh, you asked whether 1 John 5 was spiritual or physical death. I replied physical.

YOur interpretation is not consistent with what the Apostles believed and taught.

I think that Protestants would say that taking a pencil from work and raping and murdering are both sins and fall short of meeting God’s expectations of perfect righteousness. This statement is a harvesting message to alert all men that they are in need of Jesus Christ as Savior, even though they may say that they have not raped and murdered. As to varying degress of sin, as in the examples I showed you, God is supreme judge in matters of His children.

Some sins are mortal (spiritual death). Yes, God has already judged sin. He has revealed to the Church that some sins are worse than others.

 Just look at how the CC has changed it's heart in the matter of suicide throuhout history. There was a time when one who committed suicide

couldn’t have a funeral in the CC.

I am not sure what you mean here by “heart”.

The Church has not changed her teaching regarding the sin of despair. What has happened is that we know more about psychology and mental illness, and we understand that not all suicide reflects the sin of despair. If this is what you mean by “heart” then you are right. However, no change of doctrine has occurred.

 Last year, I went to a funeral of one who had lived a life of rebellion and had never showed and interest in God. Yet, the priest insisted at the cermony the individual was destined for God's glory because he had been baptized Catholic.

Surely you understand that not every Catholic accurately representes the TEaching of the church?

Surely you understand that such misrepresentation does not change the Doctrine of the faith?

  This is another example of the deadness in water baptism if sin first isn't purged by the work of Christ in the individuals heart.

Yes and no, Rocket. Baptism purges sin. If one then chooses not to live according to the purity of his baptism, yes, deadness will result. The fault is not in the baptism, though.

 

[guanophore]

1 John 5:16-17 (sin leading to death)
God knows what the sin is, it’s not any specific sin, it could be different in any individual case and every case. It could be the straw that broke the camel’s back in the continuing disobedient Christian. Could also be applied to a non-believer who commits a sin of apostasy, such as Galatians 5 or Hebrews 6, and one is praying for their salvation, but it’s too late because God has already made his decision.

No, the sin of apostasy cannot be committed by an unbeliever. In order to fall away, one has to be hanging on to something. Apostasy can only be committed by those who have embraced the faith, then denied it.

It is never “too late” to repent of sin, and be saved (in this life).

God desires all to be saved,and come to the knowledge of the Truth.

 

[guanophore]

The problem is that none of the apostles or the church in the book of Acts believed in a literal eating because it is symbolic, the bread of His flesh and the wine as His blood and points directly to the atonement on the cross and we are commanded to “remember” this.

I agree about where it points. Do you believe Jesus gave His “symbolic” flesh and blood on the cross?

How do you explain that the disciples of the Apostles misunderstood this?

How can a priest command Jesus to come down from the right hand of the Father, who said He would be there to make intercession for the saints and won’t be back till His enemies are made His footstool, then turn around and forget all He said because he was commanded by a man called a priest? Please explain.

It is not possible for any of us to “explain” a figment of your imagination.

Hebrews 10:10-15

10 By this will*** we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all***. 11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices,{SOUND FAMILIAR} which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, 13 **waiting from that time onward **UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. 14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. 15 And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying…"

Long live the King of Kings!!

Eucharist is the poesis of the Passover, Timothy. Have you forgotten that they physically ate the physical lamb?

 

[Rocket_Man]

Eucharist is the poesis of the Passover, Timothy. Have you forgotten that they physically ate the physical lamb?

Yes, they did eat of the passover lamb. But it was the marking of blood over the doorposts that passed over the angel of death. And afterwards throughout generations they ate of the passover feast as a memorial to the day God delivered them from bondage.

 

[guanophore]

You can’t get anymore secure than this to those who are in Christ.

I agree. However, the nature of sin has not changed. Sin still separates us from God. The one who falls into sin, and then becomes a slave again to sin after coming to the knowledge of the Truth, is no longer “in Christ”. A person in that state does not have the assurance those do that are in Him.

What do these two passage mean to you? Keep in mind that God is outside of time, this is His view on salvation from eternity perspective or outside of our time perspective.

Romans 8:29-30
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined {to become} conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

This is written in the past tense because it is referring to those who are already glorified. It does describe as my Reformed brethren call “the golden chain of salvation”. However, sin separates us from God, and not all those who begin in the Spirit finish that way. Some are not unitied to their heavenly inheritance. Some have their names blotted out of the book of life.

 

[guanophore]

Let's use some common sense Elvis..stick with me here.  If someone came to church and heard the gospel, then never came back.  Do they have the "head knowledge"?  Yes.  Are they a Christian? No. What if that person came to church many times and participated on a womens retreat and taught from Scripture.  Does this make them a Christian?  No.  So you see, one can play church, be associated with the root, have the head knowledge, participate and never be a Christian.  This is the point.  Have you ever known anyone like that or witnessed someone like that?  We all have.  This is why it is important to sometimes add some common sense to your known experience with the Scripture.

I agree that all these things are true, however, they are irrelevant to the passage. The passage refers to those who HAVE ESCAPED FROM DEFILEMENT. This cannot happen with head knowledge. THe only way to escape defilement is by the blood of Christ. The only way to be free of entanglement from sin is through being born again of the Spirit. People are not disentagled from sin by “head knowlege”. The Gk word for “knowledge” in this passage is the same used here:

Phil 1:9-11
9 And it is my prayer that your love may abound more and more, with knowledge and all discernment, 10 so that you may approve what is excellent, and may be pure and blameless for the day of Christ, 11 filled with the fruits of righteousness which come through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.

This is not "head knowledge’ but EXPERIENTIAL knowledge.

No Elvis, this is an apostate and they were not Christian because as John said "if they had been of us, they would have remained with us....."

An apostate is one who falls away from the faith. One cannot fall away from that which they never embraced. An unbeliever, therefore, cannot be an apostate.

Heb 6:3-8
4 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. 7 For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.

A person is an apostate who falls away AFTER they have been enlighted, tasted of the heavenly gift, and become partakers of the HS. No on can partake of the HS unless they are born again. These have had experiential knowledge of Christ, and been admitted to the Eucharist (only the baptized were permitted) to taste the heavenly gift.

… from god’s perspective it has because whatever He purposes comes to pass.

God has purposed that we choose whether we wish to spend eternity with HIm. If we lose our saltiness, then we will be thrown out.

This is why the nonsense of losing one’s salvation is strictly the human perspective and the result of error in interpretation of Scripture and God’s purpose for the Christian.

It is certaily a poor choice of words. How can one “lose” that which one has not yet obtained?

I agree that it is God’s purpose for the Christian to be united with his heavenly inheritance. Not all those who are born again will finish the race. Two thirds of the seeds that sprouted did not bear fruit, and were lost.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Likewise, Israel had the ability to choose, instead of following the cloud they continually looked back over the sea into bondage. Our’s is better covenant, because Christ has done a internal work in us that He hadn’t for Israel, we aren’t children of bondage but children of the free. We aren’t being led to the promise land by the cloud or else left to our own will we would turn back just like Israel.

He has done this work in us because we couldn’t do it ourselves. The new covenant has provided a new heart and will to carry on and march forward to receive the promise.

May I add, from Paul
Philippians 1:3-6
3 I thank my God in all my remembrance of you, 4 always offering prayer with joy in my every prayer for you all, 5 in view of your participation in the gospel from the first day until now. 6 {For I am} confident of this very thing, that ***He who began a good work in you will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus. ***

If you believe you can lose your salvation, then there is very good reason, you are either not a Christian or are sucking on the milk and strained peas of the Word. The Bible teaches the opposite and the New Covenant is a one-way street to God. The free-will choice came when you denied self and sided with Christ against the World and accepted the Gift of God through faith by his grace in Jesus Christ. You will battle the flesh until glorification, but He who is in you has defeated the sin in the flesh and you will prevail and endue because you, Christians, are fueled by the Trinity. amen

 

[guanophore]

May I add, from Paul
Philippians 1:3-6
3 I thank my God in all my remembrance of you, 4 always offering prayer with joy in my every prayer for you all, 5 in view of your participation in the gospel from the first day until now. 6 {For I am} confident of this very thing, that ***He who began a good work in you will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus. ***

If you believe you can lose your salvation, then there is very good reason, you are either not a Christian or are sucking on the milk and strained peas of the Word. The Bible teaches the opposite and the New Covenant is a one-way street to God. The free-will choice came when you denied self and sided with Christ against the World and accepted the Gift of God through faith by his grace in Jesus Christ. You will battle the flesh until glorification, but He who is in you has defeated the sin in the flesh and you will prevail and endue because you, Christians, are fueled by the Trinity. amen

One must choose to continue with the Trinity, God at work within us to will and to do. I agree that the concept of “lose salvation” is not useful. On the contrary, the Apostles taught that we had not yet attained it, and that the mature attitude is to hold fast to what we have received, to persevere in the present, and to look forward with constant hope.

 

[Carlan]

I adhere to all of God’s word. That however does not make me Catholic.

Justy, I do understand that most Anglicans and Lutherans believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. I was responding to the post of another person, Tim. Carlan

 

[Carlan]

Yes, they did eat of the passover lamb. But it was the marking of blood over the doorposts that passed over the angel of death. And afterwards throughout generations they ate of the passover feast as a memorial to the day God delivered them from bondage.

Why is it that you pass over the Discourse Of the Bread of Life and the effects of that discourse in John 6.Where is your claimed faith here in the Words of Jesus? Carlan

 

[Rocket_Man]

Hebrews 10:16-29
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Paul in many prior chapters emphasized to the Hebrews the better covenant laid by Christ Jesus, the Heavenly High Priest. He than warns them as a result of Christ’s work on the heavenly altar, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin under the old covenant priesthood. If the Jew, after been enlightened to the new and better covenant laid by Christ, sinned wilfully, meaning returned to the old covenant system of animal sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin, then there only remained for him in the old system the sacrifice for sins that did not justify. He had trampled on the blood of Christ by turning from the santification it provides to all mankind, called Christ’s sacrifice unworthy to take way sin, and his only hope is a certain fiery judgement.

 

[guanophore]

Paul in many prior chapters emphasized to the Hebrews the better covenant laid by Christ Jesus, the Heavenly High Priest. He than warns them as a result of Christ’s work on the heavenly altar, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin under the old covenant priesthood. If the Jew, after been enlightened to the new and better covenant laid by Christ, sinned wilfully, meaning returned to the old covenant system of animal sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin, then there only remained for him in the old system the sacrifice for sins that did not justify. He had trampled on the blood of Christ by turning from the santification it provides to all mankind, called Christ’s sacrifice unworthy to take way sin, and his only hope is a certain fiery judgement.

Are you saying that you think this verse does not apply to Gentiles? You think it is no problem for Gentiles to come to Christ, then forsake him for their old way of life?

 

[Rocket_Man]

Are you saying that you think this verse does not apply to Gentiles? You think it is no problem for Gentiles to come to Christ, then forsake him for their old way of life?

Anyone who forsakes Christ, unbelieving Jew or Gentile remains under his wrath. However, In Hebrews 10, Paul is not writing about Gentile believers. Instead if the enlightened Jew returns from the new covenant back to the old ceremonial laws and preisthood practices, there remains no salvation in the old covenant rather a fiery judgement.

Folks that use these verses to uphold certain theological positions do so outside of the authors intent.

“Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.”

 

[Rocket_Man]

Why is it that you pass over the Discourse Of the Bread of Life and the effects of that discourse in John 6.Where is your claimed faith here in the Words of Jesus? Carlan

Carlan, my point was to guan that the first passover was a one time event when God lead the children out of bondage. The angel of death skipped over the household when the sprinkling of blood was cast over the door posts. Future generations of Israel continued to eat of the passover lamb as a memorial to what God had accomplished in Egypt.

In the same way, the believer eats of the feast at Christ’s table as a memorial to the sprinkling of the water and blood applied internally to the heart of the believer at the moment of salvation. Christ being the perfect sacrifice and heavenly High Priest, who from His own body poured the water and the blood at his death through His Spirit now sanctifies the sinner’s heart through the inner sprinkling.