He who endures to the end will be saved!

[Timothy_Piper]

I beg your pardon, Tim, what are you trying to say with that comment, Here, read the post again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elvisman
Redemption is what Jesus did on the cross.
He PAID for us with his sacrifice.

Salvation is a process by which we are sanctified, only because of what Jesus did for us. We’re not saved until we have finished the race. I have provided ample Scriptural evidence for this - ad nauseam.

Whereas Redemption is a one-time slam-dunk, Salvation is not. It is a process as the Scriptures tell us in no uncertain terms.

Carlan:

Again I will say , Jesus redeemed all man kind with his Blood but only those who accept His death on the cross will receive salvation.If they endure to the end.Carlan

As I have pointed out numerous times; that is the human perspective, not God’s perspective. It is called a paradox, both, saved in eternity past and being saved in our time or human perspective, are both true. A Christian by virtue of the fuel source, will endure, which is why the notion of falling away or losing a salvation makes a mockery of Jesus because of His completed redemptive/salvivic work on the cross. This paradox should be one that is easily understood by the Christian in my opinion unless they are newborns.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Those He predestined are saved, called, justified, and glorified. However, not all those who were called were also predestined Matthew 22:14. Not all those who were justified were also predestined Hebrews 10:26-27.

If you sin after you are justified/saved (come to the knowledge of the truth), then you are no longer saved, but will face the wrath of God instead.

God will perfect a good work in you as long as you do not defile your temple with sin and make Him leave your soul because of your sin 1 Corinthians 3:16-18. The Holy Spirit cannot live in a temple defiled with sin.

Redemption usually refers to mankind collectively, 1 Timothy 2:5-7 whereas salvation usually refers to the individual man.

Mark 16:16
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

“Believes” means to obey. If you do not obey Him, then you are called an “unbeliever.”

Hebrews 3:17-19
Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Yes, the promise of the Holy Spirit is eternal life if you are first found worthy and are approved for the crown of eternal life. You only inherit the promise if you remain diligent and obey God’s commandments until you die. By doing this you prove that you love Jesus. He only saves those who love Him (those who keep His commandments) John 14:21.

James 1:12
Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

Hebrews 6:11-12
And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 that you do not become sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

to be continued…

So how can one that walks away in “unbelief”, an apostate for example, be called a Christian who fell away? According to your statement above, that is not the case, which of course it is not the case. Unbelief is why anyone exposed to the gospel and rejects it and will go to hell.

**We should rename this thread “The Christian - one whom endures to the end!” **

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Continued:

If we do not conduct ourselves worthy of the gospel, then we will not inherit eternal life.

If we grieve the Holy Spirit by sinning, then He destroys us 1 Corinthians 3:17.

Paul is speaking to them as if they already are going to inherit eternal life. He really has no idea whether they all will be saved or not. It is like a pep talk. He is assuming that they will remain faithful until the end of their lives. He addresses them as saints, but he also says that these saints are **faithful **to Jesus’ gospel.

Ephesian 1:1
To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

If they do not remain faithful (if thy do not continue in the faith Acts 14:21-22) until death, then they will not inherit eternal life.

This is the “perfection” we Christians seek James 2:22.

:banghead: uch: :hypno: :dts:

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Same old and :dancing:.

Iz, thanks again for yet another blessing and I praise my Lord and Savior and my prayer is He will bless you this day, in like fashion.

 

[Rocket_Man]

If a person sins deadly sins after he has been saved, then he is no longer saved. He can become saved again if he repents.

That my friend is not the gospel. That is the picture of the Jew that lived under the old covenent. He would sin and repent, sin and repent, sin and repent, in and out of God’s favor. We have a better covenant than Israel, that being Christ Jesus crucified. Because His sacrifice was perfect, all of our sin are remembered no more. Our status before the Almighty Judge never changes.

But the life we now live is still ruled by the law of sin and death. And it will utterly do it’s final work in us that we all will suffer the same fate, physical death. Some grevious sins, just as it always has, requires blood for blood and life for life, but never spiritual death.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Paul is speaking of the Old Covenant, not the New Covenant.

Paul is speaking about the Holy Commandments; - “for by the law is the knowledge of sin”

 

[Carlan]

:banghead: uch: :hypno: :dts:

I do not believe in the false doctrine of Calvinism. Timothy, and you do not accept the Apostolic Truth of our Church after all the discussions, it is hard to figure what you hope to gain by continuing on. your mind is obviously closed to everything these fine Apologist present to you.:shrug:Carlan

 

[Carlan]

:banghead: uch: :hypno: :dts:

You can bash your head silly till the cows come home Tim, we are’nt buying it!Carlan

 

[Rocket_Man]

1 John 3:9-10
Whoever has been born of God does not (habitually continually lead a life bent toward) sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot (habitually continually lead a life bent toward) sin, because he has been born of God. 10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

In earlier chapters, John writes that if person claims to have no sin then he is a liar. So you can understand, I have added in red to help you understand these verses. In overview, it’s a bending of one’s will from desiring to serve the Living God instead of the old sinful nature.

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. ** And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.**

 

[SHW]

Please read the post before commenting…thank you

I did. This Scripture was not relevant to the subject.

 

[guanophore]

elvis, I have accepted God’s free gift of salvation and am now justified, declared innocent by the Almighty Judge through the righteousness of Jesus Christ. I am now his adopted Son, not by the works I’ve done but by the perfect work of Christ. And now that I have been purchased by His blood, He did not leave me without help to accomplish what I couldn’t beforehand. He has prepared within me a new heart and has planted His seed within my new heart, and the light and rain to keep it alive and growing is provided by the Master Gardener.

In the parable of the seeds, 75% of the seeds sprouted. Of those, 2/3 died out and were lost. Did the Master Gardner fail to give light and rain to them? Was it a failure of the Gardener that they did not bear fruit?

 

[Rocket_Man]

In the parable of the seeds, 75% of the seeds sprouted. Of those, 2/3 died out and were lost. Did the Master Gardner fail to give light and rain to them? Was it a failure of the Gardener that they did not bear fruit?

guan, they did not have the good heart (good soil) because they hadn’t repented and turned to Christ and Him alone for their redemption. If they had, He would prepared a good soil (new heart) to recieve the seed.

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone”.

"I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws."

And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

 

[SHW]

Keep on denying the sufficiency of the cross and the sealing of the Spirit.

All of the epistles were written to members of Christ’s Church. They were baptized Christians whose sins were washed away by Baptism. Baptism reconciled them to God. They must maintain this reconciliation with God until they die if they desire to enter eternal life.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

1 John 2:23-26
Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life. 26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you.
**
We receive the promise of eternal life when we die only IF we continue to abide in Him** until our deaths (endure to the end). Mark 13:13 Eternal life is conditional.

Baptism sealed them with the Holy Spirit of promise (eternal life for those who love God James 1:12) and He now abides in their souls because of Baptism. The Holy Spirit, living in the temples of their souls, is the only guarantee that they will inherit eternal life. If He is no longer living in their souls, then they are no longer guaranteed eternal life because His presence in their souls is the guarantee.

2 Corinthians 5:5
Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

However, if we sin, we have defiled our temples and then the Holy Spirit leaves our souls (our temples). He no longer abides in us. **He cannot live in a temple that has been defiled by sin. ** When He moves out, we lose our guarantee of eternal life because He alone was our guarantee for inheriting eternal life.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17
Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

If the Holy Spirit has to leave our souls (temples) because we have defiled them (our temples), and if we do not repent of these sins before we die, then He will destroy (damn) us. He must be residing in our souls at our deaths in order for us to be approved to inherit eternal life.

Jesus’ death on the cross redeemed us from Adam’s Sin and it also atones for all of our personal sins that are present on our souls at the time of our Baptisms. His sacrifice reconciles us to God. However, we must imitate His life (by obeying God’s commandments and doing His Father’s Will) until we die in order to inherit eternal life.

Romans 5:10-11
For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Once we have been reconciled (justified), we are to be much more saved by imitating His life until we die.

If His sacrifice on the cross was sufficient to both reconcile us and also to enable us to inherit eternal life, then we could not possibly be saved MUCH MORE by imitating His life. Do you understand this concept?

Jesus’ sacrifice reconciles us to God and this gives us hope of eternal life. It does not guarantee us eternal life.

James 2:21-24
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

**Salvation is a life-long process. It is not a one-time event.
**

 

[SHW]

Paul is speaking about the Holy Commandments; - “for by the law is the knowledge of sin”

Paul was speaking of the Law of Moses.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Paul is speaking of the Old Covenant, not the New Covenant.

Paul was speaking of the Law of Moses.

Better the second time around. Yes, the Commandments are still alive. The old covenent is not as well as the cermonial law.

 

[Rocket_Man]

All of the epistles were written to members of Christ’s Church. They were baptized Christians whose sins were washed away by Baptism. Baptism reconciled them to God. They must maintain this reconciliation with God until they die if they desire to enter eternal life.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, **having believed, **you were sealed ****with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Do you know what it means to be sealed?

"Write ye also for the Jews, as it liketh you, in the king’s name, and seal it with the king’s ring: for the writing which is written in the king’s name, and sealed with the king’s ring, may no man reverse."

 

[SHW]

Originally Posted by SHW
1 John 3:9-10
Whoever has been born of God does not (habitually continually lead a life bent toward) sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot (habitually continually lead a life bent toward) sin, because he has been born of God. 10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

In earlier chapters, John writes that if person claims to have no sin then he is a liar. So you can understand, I have added in red to help you understand these verses. In overview, it’s a bending of one’s will from desiring to serve the Living God instead of the old sinful nature.

Thank you for taking the time to explain your position. I will explain mine for you.

We all had Adam’s sin on our souls when we were conceived. This is how we all sinned. We inherited this sin from Adam.

Romans 5:112
Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, **because all **sinned—

Most, if not all of us, commit venial sins (those sins that do not lead to death/loss of eternal life). Some persons commit mortal sins after baptism (deadly sins which do cause the loss of eternal life). These mortal sins must be confessed and repented before death. If not, then the person who committed these mortal sins (sins that lead to death) does not inherit eternal life.

1 John 5:16-18
If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death (loss of eternal life through mortal sin). I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death (venial sins).

18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.
**
A person who is born of God** (baptized, regenerated, born again) keeps himself from sin. He chooses to not sin and this is why he does not sin. He flees from the devil’s temptations instead of succumbing to them. 1 Peter 5:8-9

James 4:7
Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

This we must do in order to inherit eternal life:

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

1 John 2:4
He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

What happens to all liars?

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Those who do not keep God’s commandments are thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. ** And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.**

Paul is reminding them that some of them sinned these sins before their baptisms. He is now warning them that if they revert back to doing those same things, then they will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit,
21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul warns them again that if they do these evil things, then they will not inherit eternal life.

Matthew 13:40-42
Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age.
41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, 42 and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.

Thank you for taking the time to read this.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Baptism sealed them with the Holy Spirit of promise (eternal life for those who love God James 1:12) and He now abides in their souls because of Baptism. The Holy Spirit, living in the temples of their souls, is the only guarantee that they will inherit eternal life. If He is no longer living in their souls, then they are no longer guaranteed eternal life because His presence in their souls is the guarantee.

2 Corinthians 5:5
Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

However, if we sin, we have defiled our temples and then the Holy Spirit leaves our souls (our temples). He no longer abides in us. **He cannot live in a temple that has been defiled by sin. ** When He moves out, we lose our guarantee of eternal life because He alone was our guarantee for inheriting eternal life.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17
Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

If the Holy Spirit has to leave our souls (temples) because we have defiled them (our temples), and if we do not repent of these sins before we die, then He will destroy (damn) us. He must be residing in our souls at our deaths in order for us to be approved to inherit eternal life.

Could you find for me somwhere in scripture where the Holy Spirit moves in and out of the believer as a result of unrepented sin?

 

[Rocket_Man]

1 John 5:16-18
If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death (loss of eternal life through mortal sin). I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death (venial sins).

If your correct, Why does John write that he’s not saying that we should pray for one that has committed mortal sin (sin that leads to spiritual death) but only venial sins? Make sense of that for me. Why wouldn’t we pray for both sin types so the person could repent and receive back the Holy Spirit and be back in good standings with God as you say?

 

[SHW]

Do you know what it means to be sealed?

"Write ye also for the Jews, as it liketh you, in the king’s name, and seal it with the king’s ring: for the writing which is written in the king’s name, and sealed with the king’s ring, may no man reverse."

Yes. Baptism puts a permanent mark/seal on our souls when the Holy Spirit removes the Original Sin from our souls and this seal can never be removed. It remains forever even if we do not inherit eternal life (because of mortal sins committed after Baptism).

2 Peter 2:20
For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.

If we become Christians and then fall away from the faith by disobeying His commandments, we are then worse off than if we had never believed in the first place. Hebrews 5:9

Hebrews 10:26-30
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people

If you sin mortal sins after you have been saved (come to the knowledge of the truth) then you lose your salvation. Jesus’ sacrifice no longer saves you. Instead of eternal life, you reap God’s vengeance.

If you sin mortal sins after you have been saved, then it is like stomping on the Son of God with your feet. You do not think that His sacrifice is worth your obedience to His commandments for the rest of your life. You insult the Holy Spirit by your mortal sins and so He moves out of your soul. He cannot live in a sinful soul. If you die without repenting, then He will destroy (damn) you for eternity.

1 Corinthians 3:16-18
Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.